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Digital Foundry: Thief for Xbox One edges out the PS4 version

So the only reason people have questions about the validity of this analysis is because of massive insecurity? It couldn't possibly be because we aren't convinced by the evidence used to support the author's ideas? Hmm. Seems like some people are projecting.

As for the super long post above (and the one generalizing the entirety of GAF into some sort of Sony fanboy hive mind)...
what_the_fuck_am_I_reading.png

Edit: top of page'd. Posts referred to are at the bottom of last page. #1547-1548
 

CraZed

Member
31 pages (as I write this).

31 pages of people bitching. With 90% of the 'bitching' being over the next-gen hardware - and which hardware got the rough deal....

And yet those 31 pages were no where near as long as your single posting.

TL;DR at all.
 

EGM1966

Member
31 pages (as I write this).

The PS4 cannot deliver a 1080P AAA game with a CONSISTENT 60 fps.

The X1 cannot deliver a 1080P AAA game CONSISTENTLY.
.

To be honest the issue with this view, and how people view the situation in general, is judging the game on the console (I guess because they want to think Sony / MS).

All Thief really tells us is how good (or not as the evidence clearly shows) these particularly devs are in leveraging UE3 engine with their own added coded and delivering it on PS4/XB1/PC.

The result isn't great on all platforms and it honestly doesn't reveal much about individual platform differences so much as code inefficiency and uneven design choices.

Right now most games are cross-gen on cross-gen engines or are the usual somewhat rushed launch titles. They tell us only broad brush what either console can do. Until we see the first big titles with new engines designed from the get go for the PS4/XB1 this will remain the case.

All we can tell right now is the PS4 is more powerful and easier to code for. How much difference there is and whether we even see it much once game development matures remains unclear at this point based on the first batch of titles.

Thief though is just a flaky bit of code. A shame but there you go.
 

Melchiah

Member
True. But it goes without saying that this thread has outpaced the thread for the game itself, which does say a lot about how people view things here. Just because a site says one version is better than another version, it causes all this mayhem. I think what some are forgetting is that it is their opinion and like assholes, every one has one. It does not mean I agree with their assessment, but I take it with a grain of salt and don't understand how some of the folks in this thread are getting their panties in a wad over it.

Opinions have no place in tech analysis, which should be based purely on facts. It isn't the same as a game review.



It says a great deal about the "impartiality" of the opinion of a person who doesn't care about the game Thief but sees a thread title claiming that someone feels the XB1 version is superior to the PS4 version and is compelled to rush in and claim conspiracy.

That should be perfectly understandable, when a tech site claims the weaker hardware beats the more powerful one. It's pretty obvious why that sounds absurd. EDIT: Especially when they mention the resolution and framerate differences in the article, which favor the version they saw as worse.
 

TheKayle

Banned
Titanfall is going to be released soon and MS needs Xbone to be in the best light for that release. See it this way:

1) I'd like to buy Xbone for Titanfall but it seems every game on it play worse than PS4. I might just as well play Titanfall on 360 or PC and buy a PS4 when it's available in stores.

or

2) DF says Xbone's Thief is better than PS4's. It looks like what MS said is true and PS4 is not 40% faster than Xbone. May just as well buy Xbone for Titanfall.

If the marketing department at Xbox division is capable in any way, they'd spend the money for this kinda marketing. And the best way for it is to cooperate with popular site like DF.

Also Thief is not that bad. It's actually a decent stealth game.


its a cospiracy....

tinfoil_hat_antenna.jpg
 
Let's be absolutely clear. The X1 can display 1080P at 60 fps. No doubt about it. The Xbox360's ESRAM equivalent only had 10Mb. That's 22Mb's less than the X1. A few titles managed 1080P/60fps with a third of the memory.
(Going off of your post history, I'm probably more statistically likely to be responding to an astroturfer, but...)

Is there anyone who doubts that fact? Even the Wii U can handle 1080p/60 FPS. That statement by itself means nothing.

I don't feel that developers are sacrificing "visual quality" to hit 1080p, though. Quite the contrary. They'd rather reduce the framerate and resolution to the minimum--what they deem acceptable--level to push as many effects that they can. I would rather have a well-optimized game at the highest possible framerate and resolution rather than having them employ visually-appealing--yet not quite as noticeable--effects that significantly hamper the framerate. (At least until they get better at developing for the next-generation of consoles and are better able to optimize code.) A fluid game can still be visually impressive when avoiding costly trade-offs.
 

Chobel

Member
Put it this way, a given Ferrari is fast, it corners well and it looks great.

But sometimes, that old Ford Mondeo can just be a quieter more comfortable place to be. It might not look as good, it doesn't go as fast, it doesn't corner as well. But, every day, it can be easier and nicer to drive.

That's the way this article should be reflected on.

What the ...? This analogy makes no sense.
unless you're Penello
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
TBF shouldn't people actually watch the video than two random gifs in in the OP (we know most barely even read the OP yet alone click the link).
 

Papercuts

fired zero bullets in the orphanage.
TBF shouldn't people actually watch the video than two random gifs in in the OP (we know most barely even read the OP yet alone click the link).

People actually forming their own opinions based off reading the source of the topic? That would be a crazy day.
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
Df were lying? Do they ever admit it and respond to the gaming community when they get called out on it?
I think lying means they are deliberately deceiving their readers. I don't think they are.

I do think they are mistaken with the POM, or at least their statement without any qualification is wrong.
I would like them to also address the texture streaming issue visible on the PS4 version and whether or not they were still doing the background install at the point in the video.
 

StuBurns

Banned
Df were lying? Do they ever admit it and respond to the gaming community when they get called out on it?
They put corrections in their articles if the online noise is loud enough.

The only serious reaction was when he hugely downplayed the difference between FFXIII versions, so he basically did a completely new article about it, considerably more exhaustive one too.
 
If I went out to pick up some groceries, Mondeo > Ferrari. It's just smooth as silk the way it goes around the corner, no fuss no muss. You're not going to wake up your neighbor, shoes don't need to be clean.... You just put on some flippers, make a quick stop on Manuelo's shop and get some pasta and cheese. Any cheese.

Life is just easier and more comfortable in a Mondeo, and that's how this article should be reflected on.
 
Still remember NFS Hot Pursuit 2 being much better on the PS2 than the Xbox though the versions were made by different teams.

Metal Gear Solid also comes to mind. The thing is the first XBox just didn't have any real influence within the market so developers didn't always push the hardware even though it was quite capable to do things beyond that of the PS2. Most people just enjoyed the PS2 because that is where the games were so the extra horsepower the XBox offered was a moot point.

I don't think any honest X1 fans really feel it has superior hardware, but the PS4 fanboy insecurity is through the roof. Thread after thread after thread mocking the X1 and its games since before the consoles were even released. But if you say one thing, anything! about a PS4 flaw, regardless if it is ridiculously insignificant or even matters, crap hits the fan immediately. There's no other explanation other than total insecurity on the matter. Hilarious.

That is quite a generalization and maybe true to some extent but I think part of the problem is some people just either hate MIcrosoft and or want the X1 to fail. These are the ones who will make the issues bigger than they truly are and are the most vocal.

I completely agree. It's one thing to point out a consoles flaws, but it's another to constantly berate it for no other reason than childish fanboy-ism. I mean, give it a rest! However, if you're going to dish out criticism, then you should be able to accept criticisms as well. The thing is that, sure, the X1 has had a shaky start, but so did the PS3. And, like Sony, MS is doing their best to improve the console based on the criticisms and feedback from their player base. Fine, the GPU specs aren't up-to-par with the PS4, but so what? As long as they release good games, then what does it matter?

To be fair the PS3 always had the better specs over the XBox 360. What I truly hope isn't the case is this vindication from Playstation fans who feel it is now their turn to make sure the X1 falls short after seeing the PS3 be constantly attacked.

All in all those who simply hate a certain company that keep turning up in topics to keep the same monotone going about how bad console A is should really move onto greener pastures but we all know they don't want to.
 

Melchiah

Member
I think it's fine for the author to prefer one effect over several other things, at least it means some people will think about what resolution means.

What we know is that he picked Anisotropic filtering (what level, we don't know yet) over the following things:

- 44% higher resolution
- more consistent frame-rate and higher average (frame stuttering reduces the impact of this by a lot)
- parallax occlusion mapping missing (everywhere?)
- more evident pop-out and pop-in lighting streaming

What we know from the PC versions is that increasing resolution and POM are very costly in terms of performance compared to Anisotropic Filtering.
So to me it says that Thomas Morgan says that the developer has made the wrong trade-off, because they got a better resulting game on Xbox One by spending much less resources to achieve their goal.

We'll be getting high quality Gamersyde footage for the Xbox One in the near future, so we can check the accuracy of the current assumptions.

This is exactly why I have problems with the article, as they're rewarding the version that does less. Why would a tech analysis favor a hardware that can't achieve what its competitor can? It's like a PC GPU test crowned the card that had issues with settings that are tasking for the hardware.


That wasn't always the case with the first XBox and those multiplat titles even though many would argue that system having a larger gap in power (compared to the PS2) than what we see now between these two consoles. Oddly enough it didn't seem to matter as much back then.

There weren't these kind of regular comparison articles back in the day. If there were, I'm sure it would have mattered to many, if a PS2 version of a game like Splinter Cell or RE4 had been crowned as the best one.

As for why the power gap didn't matter to consumers that much back then; the PS2 had +20 million userbase when the Xbox and GC launched, and nearly 30 million on fiscal year ending March 31, 2002. That's more than either of the competitors sold during their lifetime. The generation was already decided by then.


Let's be absolutely clear. The X1 can display 1080P at 60 fps. No doubt about it. The Xbox360's ESRAM equivalent only had 10Mb. That's 22Mb's less than the X1. A few titles managed 1080P/60fps with a third of the memory.

It's been posted a couple of times on other threads in the past, but I dunno how to find the posts, and have no technical knowledge to explain it myself, that 32MB ESRAM might not be enough for deferred rendering (+AA?) at 1080p. Someone more knowledgeable than me might shed some further light on the issue.
 

Tizoc

Member
Sorry if this was already explained or elaborated, but I couldn't figure it out from reading the DF page.
Does it state if the PC ver. suffers from some weak optimization or the like?
 

Atlas157

Member
It's been posted a couple of times on other threads in the past, but I dunno how to find the posts, and have no technical knowledge to explain it myself, that 32MB ESRAM might not be enough for deferred rendering (+AA?) at 1080p. Someone more knowledgeable than me might shed some further light on the issue.

The 32MB ESRAM isn't a big enough framebuffer for 1080p in intense games. It's part of the reason why a lot of Bone games aren't 1080p. The other part being the weaker GPU.

Sure it can do 1080p, but developers have to cut back on things if they want to achieve it at a playable framerate.
 

Taker34

Banned
I honestly don't like the OP update, because the quoted person simply doesn't know whether those mistakes from DF were intentional or not. We should try to provide neutral material and opinions. As of now we can definitely say that their work was sloppy.
 
The 32MB ESRAM isn't a big enough framebuffer for 1080p in intense games. It's part of the reason why a lot of Bone games aren't 1080p. The other part being the weaker GPU.

Sure it can do 1080p, but developers have to cut back on things if they want to achieve it at a playable framerate.

The next Forza game by Turn 10 will answer these questions. It will give the studio enough time to really get to the finer details of the hardware and what it can do. I expect it to be once again 1080p and 60 fps but it will be interesting to see what effects they utilize such as dynamic lighting and anti-aliasing methods.
 

StuBurns

Banned
It's not about 'demanding' or not, it's just about if people use deferred rendering, because the footprint is larger, too large for the eSRAM, and tiling adds too much latency. Assuming Halo 5 is forward rendering, they'll still be able to do 1080p/60fps and have it look pretty.
 

Freeman

Banned
How many times can we blame incompetence before it becomes clear that there is something going on.

What are the credentials of DF? They sure make a lot of silly mistakes.
 
I honestly don't like the OP update, because the quoted person simply doesn't know whether those mistakes from DF were intentional or not. We should try to provide neutral material and opinions. As of now we can definitely say that their work was sloppy.

Intentional or not, sloppy work needs to get called out, without pity, cold blooded. Yea.
 

Cheech

Member
But surprise surprise, looks like DF will still be in business... at least for now :p

Ya know, you might have hit in something here. As I previously said I think the Microsoft conspiracy stuff makes no sense in this case, however...

You run the most famous game comparison site on the internets. Your bread and butter are the clicks from fanboys the world over.

Thing is, these two new consoles came out with an obvious gulf in GPU capability. You don't include PCs in your comparisons as a general rule because the difference in power would make comparisons pointless.

So what do you do when the two lead consoles have a large gap in power? How do you retain those clicks from people who get off on arguing this stuff?

That could be what we are seeing here. I don't buy that Microsoft is involved with this at all, but a compelling argument could be made that it's an act of self preservation by DF to prop up the XBO versions of crappy games to keep people interested in your next comparison.

It''s similar to the rumor that the bottom market, nobody cares, zero viewership NFL games are fixed. Fixing the large market games would draw too much attention, so the rumor is that they fix some of the low rated games for gambling, etc purposes.

It's a shady way to add more value to your product, while drawing the minimum amount of attention.

Disclaimer: I don't actually believe any of this. But it's far more plausible than Microsoft paying off some website for some garbage game that isn't going to move the needle for them in any measurable way.
 

Zen

Banned
DF did not hide anything or try to be deceptive. They gave people the facts and their opinion. If you think your opinion is valid based on only information they gave you and some YouTube videos, good for you. But I can't help but think a lot of the reactions in this thread stem from a bit of disappointment due to expectations that the PS4 would be shown to be superior.

How to you internalized all the things they forgot to mention that the PS4 version has over the Xbox One version in a technical comparison and user accounts contradict the stuttering issues.
 
Ya know, you might have hit in something here. As I previously said I think the Microsoft conspiracy stuff makes no sense in this case, however...

You run the most famous game comparison site on the internets. Your bread and butter are the clicks from fanboys the world over.

Thing is, these two new consoles came out with an obvious gulf in GPU capability. You don't include PCs in your comparisons as a general rule because the difference in power would make comparisons pointless.

So what do you do when the two lead consoles have a large gap in power? How do you retain those clicks from people who get off on arguing this stuff?

That could be what we are seeing here. I don't buy that Microsoft is involved with this at all, but a compelling argument could be made that it's an act of self preservation by DF to prop up the XBO versions of crappy games to keep people interested in your next comparison.

It''s similar to the rumor that the bottom market, nobody cares, zero viewership NFL games are fixed. Fixing the large market games would draw too much attention, so the rumor is that they fix some of the low rated games for gambling, etc purposes.

It's a shady way to add more value to your product, while drawing the minimum amount of attention.

Disclaimer: I don't actually believe any of this. But it's far more plausible than Microsoft paying off some website for some garbage game that isn't going to move the needle for them in any measurable way.

The bigger the gap, the more detrimental it becomes for the survivability of a site like DF. A site that was grown and thrived with the coming of the HD twins. Would it remain relevant if the PS4 keep moving beyond the grasp of the Xbone?
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
I played that part of the game yesterday and can confirm that my PS4 version did NOT have this issue.
If it was yesterday, can you be very specific about where this is cutscene is taking place? I can't find it, I could only find one that looks sort of similar but has no hanged man.
 
If I went out to pick up some groceries, Mondeo > Ferrari. It's just smooth as silk the way it goes around the corner, no fuss no muss. You're not going to wake up your neighbor, shoes don't need to be clean.... You just put on some flippers, make a quick stop on Manuelo's shop and get some pasta and cheese. Any cheese.

Life is just easier and more comfortable in a Mondeo, and that's how this article should be reflected on.

thief: the pasta & cheese of games?...
 
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