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[serversurfer]

40% is hardly "not particularly inclined."

Well, the male console gaming population is 50% larger, and the percentage of females gaming on their phone is also significantly larger than it is on console, so how would you describe it?

The conclusion "there's some statistically significant gender variance between platforms, but within a platform gender differences are insignificant" is the straightforward conclusion from the data in question.

I'm inclined to agree, but the conclusion that was presented instead was, "Platform, not gender, drives gamer differences."

That's harsh.

Not to mention, inaccurate. I've never said nor implied that we should be excluding anyone at all. On the contrary, I explicitly said we shouldn't be alienating anyone. To him, no less.

Interesting stuff. I can see some of this stuff already manifest in my 7 year old daughter. She isn't quite aware of sexism in games so when she sees the girls in dynasty warriors, to her, they are just pretty (and to be fair there are a number of armor wearing girls in those games). She is interested in anything I play, and I think that will translate to what she plays when she gets a bit older.

And there's nothing shameful/reprehensible/terribad about being feminine, or "pretty," as the kids say, just as there's nothing wrong with being masculine, or "handsome." Personally, I think Japanese games actually have a fairly good approach to gender equity, because they demonstrate that being hyper-feminine doesn't prevent the girls from being just as competent and capable as the boys. Who gives a shit if their costumes are unrealistic? It's a fucking cartoon; "unrealistic" is part of the appeal. There's nothing realistic about Cloud's sword, or his hair, or Barret's gun-hand, or his manly muscles. They were pretty cool though. I think that, "Girls can be sexy and awesome," is actually a very healthy message to send. I see no reason it needs to be an either/or proposition.

That's what I was getting at before. Some feminists seem to believe — mistakenly, I hope — that women can never achieve equity without erasing any perceived differences between the genders. I don't that's the only solution to the problem, or the best one. I actually find it to be quite unhealthy, because it's effectively telling them they need to change their nature before they can be considered acceptable. There's nothing wrong with being a girl, so I see no reason to turn them in to makeshift boys or otherwise attempt to "blur the lines" between the genders.

 

[PtM]

And there's nothing shameful/reprehensible/terribad about being feminine, or "pretty," as the kids say, just as there's nothing wrong with being masculine, or "handsome." Personally, I think Japanese games actually have a fairly good approach to gender equity, because they demonstrate that being hyper-feminine doesn't prevent the girls from being just as competent and capable as the boys. Who gives a shit if their costumes are unrealistic? It's a fucking cartoon; "unrealistic" is part of the appeal. There's nothing realistic about Cloud's sword, or his hair, or Barret's gun-hand, or his manly muscles. They were pretty cool though. I think that, "Girls can be sexy and awesome," is actually a very healthy message to send. I see no reason it needs to be an either/or proposition.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Whoa.
First of all, we shouldn't look for the Japanese when talking about gender equity. Those guys to me often come off as ass-backwards when dealing with respecting the double X. Fanservice in games and anime. Objectification culture (figurines, pillow drawings). Creepers in subways.
Well I'm not going to them for equity.

And are those games also telling that it's just as okay to not be feminine and still competent? Can girls be only awesome (and sexy at most just as a by-product of being awesome)?

That's what I was getting at before. Some feminists seem to believe — mistakenly, I hope — that women can never achieve equity without erasing any perceived differences between the genders. I don't that's the only solution to the problem, or the best one. I actually find it to be quite unhealthy, because it's effectively telling them they need to change their nature before they can be considered acceptable. There's nothing wrong with being a girl, so I see no reason to turn them in to makeshift boys or otherwise attempt to "blur the lines" between the genders.

This also works the other way around: It's just as unhealthy to tell someone they are counter-acting their nature, when they're just being themselves. Because the lines between genders (and most anything in the world) have always been blurred anyhow. I think that would more likely be the point of the GDC talk at hand.

 

[serversurfer]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Whoa.
First of all, we shouldn't look for the Japanese when talking about gender equity. Those guys to me often come off as ass-backwards when dealing with respecting the double X. Fanservice in games and anime. Objectification culture (figurines, pillow drawings). Creepers in subways.
Well I'm not going to them for equity.

I agree that a lot of their entertainment seems a little fucked up at first blush, but at the same time, rapes occur TWENTY-SEVEN TIMES MORE OFTEN in the US than in Japan. Even if we assume their "brutally mysogynistic" culture causes 90% of their rapes to go unreported, we're still raping our women nearly three times as often here in the wholesome, well-adjusted US of A.

So yeah, glass houses and all that.

And are those games also telling that it's just as okay to not be feminine and still competent? Can girls be only awesome (and sexy at most just as a by-product of being awesome)?

I haven't noticed any particular correlation between attractiveness and performance. It seems like the "average looking" characters are just as capable as the hot ones. That applies equally to male and female characters, from what I've noticed.

This also works the other way around: It's just as unhealthy to tell someone they are counter-acting their nature, when they're just being themselves. Because the lines between genders (and most anything in the world) have always been blurred anyhow. I think that would more likely be the point of the GDC talk at hand.

Sorry, but I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. =/ Could you restate? <3

 

[PtM]

I agree that a lot of their entertainment seems a little fucked up at first blush, but at the same time, rapes occur TWENTY-SEVEN TIMES MORE OFTEN in the US than in Japan. Even if we assume their "brutally mysogynistic" culture causes 90% of their rapes to go unreported, we're still raping our women nearly three times as often here in the wholesome, well-adjusted US of A.

I suck at geography, but isn't the US a tad bigger than Japan?

Sorry, but I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. =/ Could you restate? <3

You assessed that there is a female nature, and I say there be plenty deviants and there is nothing wrong with them.

 

[AzureTranquility95]

They play mostly RPGs and Puzzle/Adventure(Which probaly includes platformer) games?

Good kids, good kids. They will be the mascots of the current generation. Please treat female video game character with more respect, game companies.

 

[serversurfer]

I suck at geography, but isn't the US a tad bigger than Japan?

That's per capita.

You assessed that there is a female nature, and I say there be plenty deviants and there is nothing wrong with them.

Ah, then I'd say we're both right.

 

[lewisgone]

Really positive and exciting statistics that make me hopeful for the gaming industry going forward.

RIP Ghost.

 

[PtM]

Ah, then I'd say we're both right.

And so I come to say the lines are already blurry.

Furthermore, what you may perceive as a denial of exercising one's female nature could just as well be an encouragement for acceptance of deviance.

 

[Mael]

I agree that a lot of their entertainment seems a little fucked up at first blush, but at the same time, rapes occur TWENTY-SEVEN TIMES MORE OFTEN in the US than in Japan. Even if we assume their "brutally mysogynistic" culture causes 90% of their rapes to go unreported, we're still raping our women nearly three times as often here in the wholesome, well-adjusted US of A.

So yeah, glass houses and all that.

Isn't the crime rate of Japan incrediibly lower than the US too?
If there's a higher percentage of rape in their crime data than in the US, you can't make that type of conclusion.

 

[Stimpack]

Interesting. I'd have assumed more girls play MOBAs than what was recorded. It's still puzzling to me that people are still shocked that girls like video games, though. I've had a number of girlfriends who were very much into RPGs and FPS games, and there were always a ton of women in various MMORPG guilds. Girls like games, whoddathunkit?!

 

[RexNovis]

Reading through these the language on some of these questions they asked is extremely leading.

"Do you want to see more women as sex objects in games?"

Really? Come on. Unless they're a total asshole nobody is going to say yes to that.

The issue with these studies is that they are agenda driven and as such that agenda is reflected in the questions and surveys given. In short the questions often beg a biased answer. While the study is no doubt conceived and conducted with noble intent it looks to be very unprofessional. They of course deserve kudos for the effort but while their general data may be a decent barometer for the industry as a whole chunks of data are sort of suspect in my opinion.

 

[serversurfer]

And so I come to say the lines are already blurry.

Furthermore, what you may perceive as a denial of exercising one's female nature could just as well be an encouragement for acceptance of deviance.

It's a denial of deviance. The narrative is that we're all the same and that we should be. Femininity is unacceptable because it's demeaning. Masculinity is unacceptable because it's destructive. Everyone is being pushed to the center, where no one can be offensive or offended, because we're all the same.

That's fucked up. Deviance is the norm. Stereotypes exist for a reason, but everyone is different, and not only is that okay, it's awesome. Our differences are what make the world a better place. There's absolutely nothing wrong with girls who are butch, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with girls who are feminine. If girls mostly play puzzle games, that's fine too, so I see no reason to try to pretend it's not the case.

If we really were all the same, this world would be lame as fuck. I'm actually the one arguing for an acceptance of deviance here, by protesting the attempts at homogenization and more to the point, distortion of the data in furtherance of that goal.

Isn't the crime rate of Japan incrediibly lower than the US too?
If there's a higher percentage of rape in their crime data than in the US, you can't make that type of conclusion.

What's the correlation between sexual assault and burglary? A scofflaw is a scofflaw? One day you're rolling a stop sign, and the next day you're committing genocide?