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[LordKasual]

Just in case anyone is wondering about whether or not Permadeath is a mechanic that's worth having

This game pulled it off brilliantly.

The only real punishment for dying is losing hours of gameplay (or given the option to start the game over with a few buffs) because save points were extremely scarce.

But there's a counter that starts early in the game after you get an ability. It's always increasing, there is no way to decrease it or go backwards (you only have one save file, so your choices stick), and if it hits 100% before the final boss, your save file is worthless.


This game is supposed to be short, so going back on the concept is kind of weak of them. If your game is cheap and a bit "artistic" anyway, you might as well go for broke, why play it safe

 

[jim2point0]

All I know is that I would have been mighty pissed if I played for 5 hours, got stuck on a tough enemy or obstacle, and had my game reset. I'd uninstall the game and bitch about it endlessly, knowing that playing through everything again would probably feel like a slog.

You can achieve those psychological effects without going so drastic as to permanently delete all progress. In Souls games, I'm stressed as fuck about dying because I know I'll have to kill everything in the level again just to get back to where I was to retrieve what I lost. And when I die before retrieving my lost souls, I still get super pissed. So... the stress\anxiety is there.

I just feel like permadeath in a game that's hours and hours long is too much.

I certainly don't feel upset one way or the other that this thing was "spoiled." But uh... yeah.

I'm still going to play it. And if it seems likely that I might hit that permadeath state (that apparently does exist?), I'll just hack in god mode with cheat engine.

 

[KimonoNoNo]

It has been confirmed by multiple people it's in the game. Again.. just not like how most people started saying it was or guessing. But yes what a bunch of liars...

When somebody like Yoko Taro,Suda or Kojima try doing something that messes with the player they are lorded as genius.

Whereas Ninja Theory get no end of hissy fits on twitter by people who haven't even played the game and don't know what they are talking about.

 

[Marcel]

Just in case anyone is wondering about whether or not Permadeath is a mechanic that's worth having


This game pulled it off brilliantly.

The only real punishment for dying is losing hours of gameplay (or given the option to start the game over with a few buffs) because save points were extremely scarce.

But there's a counter that starts early in the game after you get an ability. It's always increasing, there is no way to decrease it, and if it hits 100% before the final boss, your save file is worthless.

While I like how this game handles permadeath this game is EXTREMELY divisive in the Breath of Fire fanbase because of said feature so it's always a risk to take. Dragon Quarter is very upfront about it though IIRC. Hellblade's implementation of the idea seems obtuse at best and cheap at worst.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Do they? Consider playing Dead Space for the first time and entering an unknown room. On your second playthrough, you know that the room is empty and there's nothing to fear, but in the unfamiliar moment, you're on your toes, nervous about what's around the corner, the music and sound effects putting your nerves on edge, worried about lurking threats

I'm not gonna remember every single room that I've entered in Dead Space. Needless to say, my second time playing Dead Space was as scary as the first. Whereas I sincerely doubt that I will forget this about Senua's Sacrifice.

Yes. When you play the game, from the very start, the game wants to immerse you in Senua's head. The player is acknowledged as another character from the opening lines. It's doing the whole unreliable narrator thing and the permadeath instructions play a part into Senua's psychosis.

Sounds like something that could be achieved by actually having real permadeath in it without resorting to a half-assed solution.

 

[semiconscious]

It's clever in the same way that a horror game uses music, environmental design, imagery, etc. to make you feel unsettled and scared

just no...

well, if you actually like a game (that's supposedly trying to deal in a serious way with the subject of mental illness) attempting to manipulate you into sympathizing with the plight of the main character by drawing similarities between her personal mental/emotional struggle & your desire to avoid losing your game save, i'm not exactly sure what to say ...

 

[CookTrain]

Dragon Quarter is very upfront about it though IIRC. Hellblade's implementation of the idea seems obtuse at best and cheap at worst.

You know the game literally starts with a 30 second rolling giant screen telling you that if you die enough for certain visual conditions to be met, you'll lose all your progress right?

How is that not upfront?

 

[Marcel]

When somebody like Yoko Taro,Suda or Kojima try doing something that messes with the player they are lorded as genius.

Whereas Ninja Theory get no end of hissy fits on twitter by people who haven't even played the game and don't know what they are talking about.

People like those aforementioned developers and are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Ninja Theory, in my experience, is not well-liked. There was once a thread here that suggested that NT should do the next Dark Souls and about 90% of the replies were of disgust.

You know the game literally starts with a 30 second rolling giant screen telling you that if you die enough for certain visual conditions to be met, you'll lose all your progress right?

How is that not upfront?

I'm calling it obtuse because no one seems to have a straight answer as to how to actually activate the permadeath feature of Hellblade. Settle yourself.

 

[DeathoftheEndless]

Something that can be learned by simply playing the game for those who are truly interested as the game suggests right up front.

Some people don't like perma-death period, regardless of how its implemented. Since the game is unclear about it, the complaints are well-deserved.

 

[LordKasual]

While I like how this game handles permadeath this game is EXTREMELY divisive in the Breath of Fire fanbase because of said feature so it's always a risk to take. Dragon Quarter is very upfront about it though IIRC. Hellblade's implementation of the idea seems obtuse at best and cheap at worst.

Yeah, Dragon Quarter was pretty divisive among the fans (it was divisive to me). It's one of those situations where scorned fans hate it purely because it was different, but more level heads could see it for what it was worth.

But the freedoms in design that the developers gained because of the D-Counter has made Dragon Quarter one of the most unique RPG experiences i've ever played.

By putting actual weight to failure, and an ACTUAL risk to abusing your powers, my battle decisions in BOF5 remain some of the most nerve wracking ones i've made in an RPG, hands down.


BOF5's permadeath was clearly very well thought out, and the entire game was designed around it.

Hellblade seems like it COULD have had a really neat opportunity, but it chickened out. I don't really care either way, but the fact that they bluffed it is more disappointing than anything i've heard about the game since.

 

[kc44135]

Depends, do you live near the artic?

We'll have to find out in the Hellblade Siberia expansion.

There is, but an act of true love can thaw a frozen heart.

This is not Horizon Zero Dawn - Frozen Wilds.

We'll have to wait until Dec at the Icy Tundra of Lambeau to find out.

Oh dear, epic typo there, lol.

So far, reports are that permadeath is in the game, but its unknown how to exactly trigger it.

Ah, I see. Thx.

 

[CookTrain]

I'm calling it obtuse because no one seems to have a straight answer as to how to actually activate the permadeath feature of Hellblade. Settle yourself.

Permasettled. So the issue is it doesn't have a big old counter attached to it?

Having seen the game to completion, I'll say that personally I don't think a counter would help

 

[LordKasual]

So far, reports are that permadeath is in the game, but its unknown how to exactly trigger it.

What the hell is the point then lol

 

[Crossing Eden]

Totalbiscuit is a total baby.

Snobby gaming culture personified. Went in absolutely ready to hate the game.

 

[Marcel]

Permasettled. So the issue is it doesn't have a big old counter attached to it?

Having seen the game to completion, I'll say that personally I don't think a counter would help

I don't expect a Dragon Quarter-style meter in this game obviously. I think we're just at a crossroads about how to implement a permadeath feature in a game, how to message that idea to a player and how that blends with the atmosphere you want in your game. And that's okay. I'm sure I will take Hellblade for a spin at a sale price one day and find out.

 

[Conkerkid11]

Holy shit. This game has been dragged through the mud on release day for apparently no reason at all beyond existing. SMH.

Hardly anybody's making as big a fuss about this as the select few highlighted in this thread. Clearly this isn't the game for TotalBiscuit, but he's gonna go ahead and bitch and moan about it anyways. Gotta unsub from that guy on all social media platforms. This is really unprofessional and inexcusable.

81 on Metacritic
87% on Steam out of 1,055 reviews
5,619 playing on Steam

I'm mostly amused by the fact that it came out the same day as Lawbreakers and is doing significantly better than it despite being more of a niche game.

 

[Gbraga]

What the hell is the point then lol

If you're dying a reasonable amount, you'll always fear that the next death may be your last. The game's default difficulty setting also adjusts itself to your performance, to help you a bit and make it so it probably won't trigger by dying in the same segment a bunch of times. I imagine it'll instantly go down one setting the moment you die, and go up as you continue.

 

[Marcel]

Hardly anybody's making as big a fuss about this as the select few highlighted in this thread. Clearly this isn't the game for TotalBiscuit, but he's gonna go ahead and bitch and moan about it anyways.

81 on Metacritic
87% on Steam out of 1,055 reviews
5,619 playing on Steam

I'm mostly amused by the fact that it came out the same day as Lawbreakers and is doing significantly better than it despite being more of a niche game.

I mean, this game actually has a gripping concept and art design while Lawbreakers absolutely fails at both of those, to say nothing of Lawbreakers' marketing (which doesn't exist). Multiplayer focus is also not necessarily a guarantee of success.

 

[Messofanego]

Sounds like something that could be achieved by actually having real permadeath in it without resorting to a half-assed solution.

If it actually had permadeath, then it's real and isn't part of psychosis. It's about her delusions and fears, and one of them is death which is imparted on the player. It's easy to understand once you play the game and get the feel for how unreliable everything is.

 

[More_Badass]

Hardly anybody's making as big a fuss about this as the select few highlighted in this thread. Clearly this isn't the game for TotalBiscuit, but he's gonna go ahead and bitch and moan about it anyways. Gotta unsub from that guy on all social media platforms. This is really unprofessional and inexcusable.

81 on Metacritic
87% on Steam out of 1,055 reviews
5,619 playing on Steam

I'm mostly amused by the fact that it came out the same day as Lawbreakers and is doing significantly better than it despite being more of a niche game.

Well that's promising. Seems like it's doing well

 

[Spartancarver]

My god, some of the posts in this thread (and by manbabies like TB and Sterling on twitter) make me understand why some smaller devs are terrified of trying anything remotely new or unique or unusual with their games. Just hordes of shrieking and rage from people who have no interest in even playing the game.

 

[Sidon]

You should watch co-optional podcast now. A good 45 minutes of TB whining. Perhaps we need to break out some cheese.

People made mistakes, just man up and move on. I'm not a big fan of Jim Sterling, but at least he had the balls to apologize in his way.

 

[Marcel]

You should watch co-optional podcast now. A good 45 minutes of TB whining. Perhaps we need to break out some cheese.

People made mistakes, just man up and move on. I'm not a big fan of Jim Sterling, but at least he had the balls to apologize in his way.

It wouldn't be TotalBiscuit if he didn't moan and whine for an aggravatingly long time.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Totalbiscuit is a total baby.

isn't the main thing he is famous for a filter relating to frame rate options

whining about inconsequential shit is central to his work

 

[Glass Rebel]

If it actually had permadeath, then it's real and isn't part of psychosis. It's about her delusions and fears, and one of them is death which is imparted on the player. It's easy to understand once you play the game and get the feel for how unreliable everything is.

So permadeath might be in it and it's reflected in the game? That sounds potentially interesting. Thanks for taking the time to clarify.

 

[Barakov]

Ha. Totally thought this game had permadeath in the literal sense. I was a bit pissed when I took a tumble off a tree and died. Now I won't have to be so worried about it.

 

[Conkerkid11]

You should watch co-optional podcast now. A good 45 minutes of TB whining. Perhaps we need to break out some cheese.

People made mistakes, just man up and move on. I'm not a big fan of Jim Sterling, but at least he had the balls to apologize in his way.

It looks like TB has apologized though, and at least as far as I know, this was just limited to some Tweets from him, whereas Jim actually published his review and briefly had the 1/10 score posted up on the aggregate sites.

I find it so disheartening that this is what people are talking about when it comes to this game instead of the point the developer is trying to make with mental illness. The story is incredible and what you take from it is what should be being discussed not this stupid permadeath rumor

Probably wanna go into the OT for that type of discussion. The game just came out. People who are going to be discussing the game's story are gonna be doing that post-launch after they've already beat the game. Articles about that are diving into spoiler territory, not like that stopped this thread.

 

[chris121580]

I find it so disheartening that this is what people are talking about when it comes to this game instead of the point the developer is trying to make with mental illness. The story is incredible and what you take from it is what should be being discussed not this stupid permadeath rumor

 

[Gbraga]

I find it so disheartening that this is what people are talking about when it comes to this game instead of the point the developer is trying to make with mental illness. The story is incredible and what you take from it is what should be being discussed not this stupid permadeath rumor

I'll probably only be able to play it next year, so there's that.

I'm really happy to see a lot of people pleased with the way they tackled these issues, though. I have to admit I didn't have any faith in Antoniades' writing after his social commentary in DmC. Glad to be proven wrong.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

As someone who had zero percent interest before knowing about this gameplay mechanic and then going to a 100% must buy because of this game mechanic, my interest just got deflated if the permadeath mechanic is that easy to get around.

Shame too because based on the story and the topic discussed in the story, the permadeath mechanic is unique, original and innovative especially when you realize what the topic being discussed is and realizing how it all plays into each other perfectly.

Ninja Theory should patch the permadeath to where you will die permanently based on how many times you do die in the game and lessen based on the difficulty with "auto" difficulty being a preset number of deaths.

 

[scitek]

The reports from people here that they've run out of lives and can no longer progress is enough to put me off. I'm not going to risk wasting my time.

Why can't people just limit themselves to a certain number of attempts before calling it quits? That way, literally any game can have permadeath.

 

[chrisPjelly]

Looks like it was play tested/focus tested to hell, and for the better. I can't imagine that being fun at all.

 

[GavinUK86]

The reports from people here that they've run out of lives and can no longer progress is enough to put me off. I'm not going to risk wasting my time.

Why can't people just limit themselves to a certain number of attempts before calling it quits? That way, literally any game can have permadeath.

What reports? You're really missing out by not giving it a go.

 

[LordKasual]

People made mistakes, just man up and move on. I'm not a big fan of Jim Sterling, but at least he had the balls to apologize in his way.

That 1/10 review has altered my base opinion about him.

To spend so much of your time shitting on Steam Greenlight and what it lets people get away with, just to turn around and give an honest game the lowest possible score because it released with a bug is some petty ass shit. Especially when the reasoning can basically be boiled down to another "TRIPLE A GAME INDUSTRY" quip, when Hellblade, with its experimental design and $29.99 release price is the kind of game that Jim Sterling should be advocating for. Every gamer and game reviewer knows what a bug is, we've survived Bethesda, nobody needs 7 minutes of reasoning to know that hitting the Game Breaker Bug Lottery isn't a fun experience.

Extremely irresponsible. The apology is nice it never should have gotten to that point. At least he's wise enough to be able to step back and know he fucked up.

 

[More_Badass]

well, if you actually like a game (that's supposedly trying to deal in a serious way with the subject of mental illness) attempting to manipulate you into sympathizing with the plight of the main character by drawing similarities between her personal mental/emotional struggle & your desire to avoid losing your game save, i'm not exactly sure what to say ...

Isn't that somewhat comparable to Memento making the audience sympathize with the protagonist's struggle with amnesia through its manipulation of film structure? That kind of direct use of mechanics that impact the player is the closest game design analog to directors using their toolset of editing, lighting, framing, cuts, etc (compared to using dialogue and general narrative) to make the audience sympathize with and feel like the character onscreen feels.

How do you feel about a game like Eternal Darkness and it using player-centric mechanics to mirror a sense of going mad and feeling tension, like the character?

 

[Dutch Microwave]

Man,I know it's been debunked but thats beside the point,could we like try not to spoil shit from games on their LAUNCH DAY in the thread title? Just maybe?

Also,lmao at those tweets,although not all that surprising.TB has been a condescending prick for a long time.

 

[sirronoh]

Some people don't like perma-death period, regardless of how its implemented. Since the game is unclear about it, the complaints are well-deserved.

The great thing about this industry is that not every game is designed for every person.

 

[Self_Destructive]

They should just go all out and patch the game so that if you die, the game deletes itself from your Steam/GoG/PSN account and you have to buy it again. lol

 

[Mithos]

The great thing about this industry is that not every game is designed for every person.

That's OK, as long as they tell me BEFORE I buy something from somewhere that do not allow for easy refunds, I dunno places such as PSN for example.

 

[Gbraga]

That's OK, as long as they tell me BEFORE I buy something from somewhere that do not allow for easy refunds, I dunno places such as PSN for example.

You don't have to buy everything day one. Wait for impressions and inform yourself. They absolutely do not have the obligation to spoil their own game just so you don't risk getting exposed to design ideas you disagree with.

 

[fireflame]

I did not expect a modern game with very good graphics to feature permadeath, to be honest i feel it could stop me from getting a game like Hellbade.

 

[More_Badass]

I did not expect a modern game with credible graphics to feature permadeath, to be honest i feel it could stop me from getting a game like Hellbade.

What do the first two have to do with permadeath?

And what are "credible" graphics? Or I assume you mean incredible?

 

[OmegaDL50]

I just personally it doesn't matter if someone plays the game or not. For me and and most people I've talked to about it they were immediately uninterested in trying Hellblade when the "permadeath" system came up. The idea of a video game punishing you for not being good enough in a insane to think of.

On paper the mechanic sounds terrible and at first glance.

This isn't terrible or an insane concept in games. In fact the Rogue / rogue-like genre and similar games of that ilk push the concept of permanent death. Or at least death with lasting consequences such as losing all of your items or starting back at level 1.

 

[fireflame]

What do the first two have to do with permadeath?

And what are "credible" graphics? Or I assume you mean incredible?

I mean that there is a high risk involved in making games with high budgets who usually have graphics like those. Nowadays games are super expensive to make so a permadeath option can lower sales and make it harder to avoid losses. By credible i meant realist and igh level graphics.

 

[GavinUK86]

Calling it permadeath is a stretch. Does a game like Mario feature permadeath? You have an undisclosed amount of retries which, after playing it all day on automatic difficulty, I've died once. It's really not a difficult game. I can't see many having issues with it.

 

[Mazzo3]

I completely respect the developer's choice to implement that mechanic in that way. It might backfire and make people hate the game, but it can also make people like it even more. We want them to feel they can take those risks, people. I'm surprised with how many people are upset about this, but at least don't spoil the game without warning, jeez...

 

[sirronoh]

You don't have to buy everything day one. Wait for impressions and inform yourself. They absolutely do not have the obligation to spoil their own game just so you don't risk getting exposed to design ideas you disagree with.

Spot on.

That's OK, as long as they tell me BEFORE I buy something from somewhere that do not allow for easy refunds, I dunno places such as PSN for example.

I understand that some people may have an aversion to gameplay features such as perma-death. That's cool, we're all different. However, developers are not obligated to inform you of every (or any) feature of their game. The onus is on you, the consumer, to research what the game is about and to take as much time as you need to to feel satisfied.

Ideally you would play the game yourself but if you're not willing to do that in case you run into a design decision you disagree with, just wait a few days, weeks, or months and read and/or ask about impressions from others who did play the game. There's nothing stopping you or anyone else from simply waiting until more information is known about a particular game you may be interested in.

If you still aren't satisfied with the answer, just don't buy the game. If you are satisfied with the answer and it turns you off, still don't buy the game. Either way, there's no need to jump on the internet and complain about it. Just keep it moving and find other games you may be interested in -- there are thousands released every year.

 

[Mithos]

Spot on.



I understand that some people may have an aversion to gameplay features such as perma-death. That's cool, we're all different. However, developers are not obligated to inform you of every (or any) feature of their game. The onus is on you, the consumer, to research what the game is about and to take as much time as you need to to feel satisfied.

Ideally you would play the game yourself but if you're not willing to do that in case you run into a design decision you disagree with, just wait a few days, weeks, or months and read and/or ask about impressions from others who did play the game. There's nothing stopping you or anyone else from simply waiting until more information is known about a particular game you may be interested in.

If you still aren't satisfied with the answer, just don't buy the game. If you are satisfied with the answer and it turns you off, still don't buy the game. Either way, there's no need to jump on the internet and complain about it. Just keep it moving and find other games you may be interested in -- there are thousands released every year.

How about that awesome "Radiant Historia: Perfect Chronology" artstyle....

Like I said in a earlier post I was willing to play this, it being digital only lessened the willingness to buy it, the permadeath thing killed it off, this "spoiler" that it was a bluff (if it really is) made the game interesting again.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

After texting my friend back and forth who's currently playing the game and based on what he's told me, I just purchased a $50 PSN digital download card from Best Buy (I have a ton of gift cards) and will buy the game tonight or tomorrow. Just hoping that Best Buy doesn't cancel my order which for some odd reason, they have a habit of doing when it comes to PSN/XBL digital download currency purchases.

I loved Enslaved and Badass made me remember Eternal Darkness so I have to give this game a shot. Ninja Theory is basically taking a huge risk and I must admit that whether or not I end up liking the game, I want this concept to succeed.

All in baby!!!

 

[semiconscious]

Isn't that somewhat comparable to Memento making the audience sympathize with the protagonist's struggle with amnesia through its manipulation of film structure? That kind of direct use of mechanics that impact the player is the closest game design analog to directors using their toolset of editing, lighting, framing, cuts, etc (compared to using dialogue and general narrative) to make the audience sympathize with and feel like the character onscreen feels.

How do you feel about a game like Eternal Darkness and it using player-centric mechanics to mirror a sense of going mad and feeling tension, like the character?

again, this's a game that has proudly claimed to be a mature/sympathetic examination of mental illness. to attempt to equate the fear one might experience at the possibility of losing a game save to the distress of someone experiencing chronic mental/emotional problems does nothing but cheapen the effort, imo...

i mean, watch the first couple minutes of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS6wHzwUDI4

neither memento nor eternal darkness ever aspired or claimed to deal with subject matter as dead serious as this...