BertramCooper
Banned
Any monarchic head of state is unavoidably involved in politics.
It's government they're (largely) not involved in.
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Japan Emperor Akihito offers 'remorse' on WW II surrender anniversary
- Thread starter Walpurgis
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It's government they're (largely) not involved in.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
There was a huge religious and ideological component to the opposition in Iraq and Afghanistan. You never had mass scale insurgencies resisting occupation once the official surrenders came in, it was like the people just sort of gave up and accepted their fate. They didn't have neighbouring countries funnelling manpower and war materials for their personal holy war against the occupiers.
The US was willing to stay for the better part of a decade and funnel money in, but the same kind of positive outcome was never going to be possible knowing what we know about how it all went down.
Japanese used rape and torture for the same reason we firebombed their country into oblivion and then dropped 2 atomic bombs on civilian populaces.
It's the sickness of humanity that morally justifies any of those atrocities. And it's why we'll continue raping, torturing, and killing each other in mass numbers for the foreseeable history.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Succinct Verbosity
Member
I'm sorry, but no. You can't compare the two. Bombing is a necessary act of war on the scale, but rape isn't a necessary act of war on any scale.
vas_a_morir
Banned
What a derail, goddam
Firebomb an airplane? It was shot down from a missile.
Wires got crossed with talking about firebombing cities. It happens.
Oh, did I offend your sensibilities by comparing the act of rape and torture used as terrorism to oppress and subjugate a country to the fact that mass firebombing and atomic bombing cities was used as terrorism to subjugate a country?
Here's the thing and you can see it with the Russian raping their way into Germany, rape used at that time was as much for punishment as it was for a man's own personal glee of power over another. Now tell me that the bombs dropped weren't done for the same reason - collective punishment. That is literally total war.
No, just our intelligence.
Hmm, it appears that information I had read prior is outdated...
After doing research I see that you are indeed correct and I in the wrong.
I suppose given this I have no reason to see any need for an apology without a general empty apology for the war itself.
Cow Mengde
Banned
Do you apologize for winning a war, and freeing millions of innocent people from hell?
Succinct Verbosity
Member
If you want to talk about collective punisment while moving the needle to support your moral claims, we can always look at how Japan and Germany economically prospered after World War 2 compared to how certain other nations under Germany and Japan faired after their invasion. We can do that. Let's do that.
Edit: and to be clear I'm not obsolving Russia of anything here. What they did was wrong, but I don't see, again, how Russia's actions make it impossible for certain Japanese politicians to accept the atrocities they committed as wrong.
KillerMan91
Member
Germany is pretty much outlier when it comes to teaching and apologizing about their history and even that is mostly because after the war they forced to do so by allies. Have british and french apologized for the shit they pulled during colonial era around the world? Has US apologized for the shit they pulled during cold war around the world? Has Russia apologized for the shit they pulled in Eastern Europe during Soviet era? Nope. Every nation pretty much wants to sweep bad things about their history under the rug if they can.
BotchPoppaPump
Member
Rape has been used as a tool of war for millenia. It still is. It can be used as a form of ethnic cleansing too which makes it even more unpleasant. I'm not familiar with Nanking so I can't really comment there but for more recent examples: Bosnia, Rwanda, Sudan. Not nice.
As for defending dropping nukes, or rather defending them over rape as a more civilised, humane, necessary tool of war... Looking back, both are reprehensible. Yes, I speak with hindsight and in the midst of war, horrific actions have to be undertaken. But all I can think of is the innocent lives affected by all. Rape, nukes or whatever.
I find it troublesome to discuss either. It's fucked up, man. As cringe as it may sound. It's fucked up. Yes, rape is fucked up but so are nukes, Christ.
As for defending dropping nukes, or rather defending them over rape as a more civilised, humane, necessary tool of war... Looking back, both are reprehensible. Yes, I speak with hindsight and in the midst of war, horrific actions have to be undertaken. But all I can think of is the innocent lives affected by all. Rape, nukes or whatever.
I find it troublesome to discuss either. It's fucked up, man. As cringe as it may sound. It's fucked up. Yes, rape is fucked up but so are nukes, Christ.
highrider
Banned
superseohyun
Member
Try reading up on Nanking.
Ganzlinger
Member
It was probably necessary, but not humane when you kill civilians with the nuke.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
What would be the humane way to kill civilians?
You're right. Millions more should have died in a much longer, pointless, more protracted ground war, and millions more from likely starvation, instead of using two nuclear strikes to end the war early.
Megalosaro
Banned
Hardly. This isn't the first time they've made similar statements. And plus the Chinese and Korean governments love using this as a tool to drum up nationalist sentiments whenever they need to divert attention away from their own domestic issues. They'll just say this didn't go far enough.
Patrick Bateman
Member
Oh, that same 70-year old justification..
My thoughts.
But hey, Japan was the poor victim of WW2, they didnt do anything wrong.
Not a chance.
Very good question. Did they ever apologise for the devastation and large scale loss of lives?
superseohyun
Member
do you think this went far enough? maybe dont give bullet to chinese and korean to use as a tool to drum up their nationalist sentiments?
but no. japanese is also victim of the war! Everyone did bad thing during war! We hardly did anything out of ordinary! we will only apologize after americans apologize to us!
It's the first time he's used the words "deep regret", but Japan has been apologizing for their shit from back then for ages now.
America just doesn't apologize. Ever.
America just doesn't apologize. Ever.
Yeah, why bother with japanese brothels filled with war prisoners. The americans should apologize first!
Who did we free in Iraq?
Megalosaro
Banned
They probably could have gone a little further into explicit details... But again, it really doesn't matter. I really don't think the Chinese government really gives a damn one way or another. This is just another tool for them.
King Tubby
Member
World War II should've ended with everyone apologizing to everyone else and giving each other hugs.
I think of this video whenever the subject of bombing Japan comes up.
The United States wasn't an aggressor. Japan was. Hint hint
I think of this video whenever the subject of bombing Japan comes up.
superseohyun
Member
yes. because chinese goverment may be dicks, lets just not apologize for our atrocity to chinese PEOPLE. Can you imagine the satisfaction that will give them! Surely no one would want that to happen!
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Avatar bet on the next Japan/WWII related thread derail
we bombed nagasaki, iraq and hiroshima, iraq with nukes?
Megalosaro
Banned
I'm not saying that at all dude chill out. If you had read better I said they could have gone further. But again no apology will ever be good enough. The governments of China and Korea will always manipulate their citizens opinion on the matter
I always see that kind of sentiment on the Internet whenever it comes to Japan.
Hmm I wonder why.
Maybe because japan refuses to show a little bit remorse? Its always "yeah there were brothels were soldiers could rape women from conquered areas.... But who cares?" Maybe this sentiment would change when japan would start to act a little bit like germany?
Ganzlinger
Member
smh
Don't put words in my mouth. I said it was necessary, but that doesn't make things humane. You and I have the same opinion, but you might have thought I was against the nuke. I'm not, I just don't want to associate the act with words like humane or mercy.
PeskyToaster
Member
Oh god this thread again. Can't wait to hear from more people lacking any knowledge or perspective on the situation trying to paint Japan as a victim.
BotchPoppaPump
Member
I don't understand. Are you wanting me to say that the Japanese people somehow deserved to be nuked? Is this what you mean? I'll read up on all of the atrocities detailed and come to the conclusion that yeah, they deserved it?
As simple as that. The winner is always right and writes history.
I wonder how many people even know about Unit 731
Empyrean Heaven
Member
America has never apologized for any conflict they have ever been in. Fuck, we didn't even apologize for 'Nam. AND WE LOST.
Poodlestrike
Banned
It's more that Imperial Japan could not be allowed to exist after all the impossibly fucked up shit they did. Total, unconditional surrender was a must. This could be accomplished in one of three ways: a long, protracted blockade (millions die of starvation), a long, protracted invasion (millions die on the beaches), or by nuking 2 cities. Total death toll, a few hundred thousand.
That's a completely different circumstance, though. From the viewpoint of modern secular morality, those conquests (and the subsequent persecutions) really are not defensible. Japan and Germany, however, were committing heinous acts and intended to commit them. The most common sentiment about the nuclear bombings is that the ends justified the means.
I've got to disagree here. Unit 731 was outrageously evil, but still on a smaller scale than Nazi experimentation. The issue is that Japan, generally, does not own up to their historic vivisections, tortures, rapes, and mass murders in the way that Germany does.
Much of the "Japan was more brutal than Germany" claims boil down to very old stereotypes.
It's a great thing this isn't the Oppression olympics. An evil, horrifying act is an evil, horrifying act.
Maybe if we had realized that total war, indescriminate killing of civilians was a shitty thing to do when "you're the good guy" then we wouldn't have used WW2 as a justification to do other horrible shit in Vietnam and Iraq, unless we do have some sympathizers for dropping agent orange and bombs on ancient forests and jungles.
I just don't like America patting itself on the back for the atomic bombs. Tens of thousands of more civilians died to those 2 bombs than America's total military deaths in the Pacific. This is all after the firebombings btw, that claimed even more lives taken together. And we pat ourselves on the back for not dropping more or that it was better than the alternative of invasion which probably would've resulted in total genocide - an evil greater evil.
Insanity. I rather nip this shit in the bud so that my aforementioned examples of justification of total war used by the military will be met with the requisite appallment and disgust. Because when we justify evil, guess what, we continue it. And others will continue it. And our enemies continue it.
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