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[SkylineRKR]

PS4 could be profitable in Europe because of dat exchange rates. 400 euro is like 540 USD right now.

Yes Xbone isn't launching in Holland in 2013. But its sort of expected as after the good start of the 360 and the struggling Ps3, its pretty much all Sony once the price was slashed since the 40gb model.

Xbox has become sort of irrelevant over the past 5 years. MS is likely to ensure the US and UK will get the amount of systems they desire and they see this country as second tier. On the other hand Sony always saw Europe as second tier, which is why we got the Ps3 very late, but Europe pretty much saved the Ps3 in the end. We're still 2 weeks later than US, but its not months. And we're before Japan.

 

[DisgustipatedSA]

PS4 could be profitable in Europe because of dat exchange rates. 400 euro is like 540 USD right now.

That €399 includes VAT though right? The US $399 price doesn't include any tax at all. So if you strip out VAT it translates to ~$450 assuming a 20% VAT. Not perfect, but not a crazy price increase either.

 

[jaypah]

I still maintain the belief that the bedrock of Microsoft's success last gen was them managing to get the 360 out as early as they did. Without that caveat, well, it'll be interesting to see how they get on.

It certainly helped. Xbox is a strong brand but I don't think it's strong enough to launch late, underpowered and more expensive. It doesn't have that "iconic phenomenon" thing going where those faults don't matter as much. I'm buying one next year so best of luck to them but it seems an uphill battle from here.

 

[DBT85]

That €399 includes VAT though right? The US $399 price doesn't include any tax at all. So if you strip out VAT it translates to ~$450 assuming a 20% VAT. Not perfect, but not a crazy price increase either.

Correct.

In the UK its £350 including VAT, so £291 excluding VAT. That's currently $463, but there are probably other things Sony have to pay like import tax etc.

Regardless, it's entirely possible that the EU is taking up the slack so that they can hit $399.

Zomgwtfbbq could probably tell us exactly what they have to pay.

 

[Marc]

I wish someone in the Europe press (haha!) would have the balls to grill Sony on the ridiculous RRP announced for the games themselves. Especially after saying they would be in line with current gen. Meanwhile the US aren't getting that next gen tax so we are having to subsidize the market.

Pretty shitty thing to do during a global recession.

In fact, I find it amazing that we don't have journalists that as soon as that faq was released didn't demand to sit with a Sony rep and go through it. Unless I missed it?

 

[PanicFreak]

Interesting, and quite honestly worrying note about Gaikai there.
Suggestions about Playstation name detaching from devices and becoming a service seems quite realistic.

I'm predicting that Xbox and Playstation will be streaming services in five years. That's why I laugh about all these gflops discussions. Soon, they will be entirely pointless.

 

[adixon]

I'm predicting that Xbox and Playstation will be streaming services in five years. That's why I laugh about all these gflops discussions. Soon, they will be entirely pointless.

Indeed, the first five years of a console generation seem, historically, a totally pointless thing to focus on.

 

[DBT85]

I'm predicting that Xbox and Playstation will be streaming services in five years. That's why I laugh about all these gflops discussions. Soon, they will be entirely pointless.

I think we are further than 5 years away before they don't release a box that provides the best experience.

But they'd be fools if they didn't try and leverage Gaikai on every device with a screen and a BT connection.

 

[pretty done]

Don't worry Netherlands, you guys are Tier 1 in my (and Sony's) heart.

 

[Curufinwe]

I wish someone in the Europe press (haha!) would have the balls to grill Sony on the ridiculous RRP announced for the games themselves. Especially after saying they would be in line with current gen. Meanwhile the US aren't getting that next gen tax so we are having to subsidize the market.

Pretty shitty thing to do during a global recession.

In fact, I find it amazing that we don't have journalists that as soon as that faq was released didn't demand to sit with a Sony rep and go through it. Unless I missed it?

The RRP nonsense kind of ruins the digital market. But retail games will still be discounted, right?

 

[Curufinwe]

I'm predicting that Xbox and Playstation will be streaming services in five years. That's why I laugh about all these gflops discussions. Soon, they will be entirely pointless.

So five years from now they will abandon huge areas of the world without the bandwidth to support that? I doubt it.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

There will be some stock which is not set aside for pre-orders

I really wish I hadn't read that. The urge to buy one at launch is reaching almost critical levels...

 

[DBT85]

The RRP nonsense kind of ruins the digital market. But retail games will still be discounted, right?

Of course they will.

I really wish I hadn't read that. The urge to buy one at launch is reaching almost critical levels...

Do it.

 

[NemesisPrime]

I wish someone in the Europe press (haha!) would have the balls to grill Sony on the ridiculous RRP announced for the games themselves. Especially after saying they would be in line with current gen. Meanwhile the US aren't getting that next gen tax so we are having to subsidize the market.

Pretty shitty thing to do during a global recession.

In fact, I find it amazing that we don't have journalists that as soon as that faq was released didn't demand to sit with a Sony rep and go through it. Unless I missed it?

Better get used to this if there is no competition.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I really wish I hadn't read that. The urge to buy one at launch is reaching almost critical levels...

I actually wonder if that's true. There have been threads about European orders for the PS4 and how major stores are telling people that pre-orders are booked through the beginning of next year.

 

[Americanmushroom]

Problem is, int the Tier1 countries the numbers for xbone are gonna be much higher then it normally should cause Tier2 countries are gonna buy it there. I know a friend of mine that is gonna geet his delivered from Amazon France. The delivery is free to Belgium

 

[Tiberius]

I wish someone in the Europe press (haha!) would have the balls to grill Sony on the ridiculous RRP announced for the games themselves. Especially after saying they would be in line with current gen. Meanwhile the US aren't getting that next gen tax so we are having to subsidize the market.

Pretty shitty thing to do during a global recession.

In fact, I find it amazing that we don't have journalists that as soon as that faq was released didn't demand to sit with a Sony rep and go through it. Unless I missed it?

What ridiculous RRP?
In france that's the same RRP that ps3 games
Killzone Shadowfall RRP is 69.99
Beyond two souls RRP is 69.99

 

[DBT85]

I actually wonder if that's true. There have been threads about European orders for the PS4 and how major stores are telling people that pre-orders are booked through the beginning of next year.

Yeah Pre orders might be. But they've held some back so that walk-ins can get some. The last thing they want is someone totally unable to walk into any store at any point in the first 6 weeks and not be able to buy one because they were all pre ordered.

Some people that have pre ordered might actually be better off trying to get one near launch and then cancelling the pre order they have.

 

[Udham]

Sony is in difficult times at the moment and PlayStation is one of the pillar businesses that Sony's leader, Kazuo Hirai, has identified as pivotal to sustaining Sony's business, while he regenerates it and restructures.
]

So one company considers its gaming biz as core of the business and at the other company people wants to tear down its gaming arm. So hard to decide which one to support more.

But good to see Sony doing everything right.
- Launching first
- Launching in more countries
- Cheaper SKU
- Improved focus on MP (still need to pass the test)
- Improved controller
- Better Subscription service in terms of value
- Great first party support
- Beast specs
- Smaller form factor
- Multi-profile support
- Legacy accessories aren't abandoned
- Listening to feedback

I'm sure I'm missing out on few pluses.

However, what I really need Sony to do is that control the title updates and patches, it's simply horrible on PS3. Keep updated titles and merge the updates. Secondly, I want control on community, they need some filtering/feedback system on trolls and irritating users.
I think MP behind paywall will deter users making multiple accounts and online should be slightly more organised.

 

[DBT85]

I think MP behind paywall will deter users making multiple accounts and online should be slightly more organised.

Won't make a blind bit of difference, you only need to have one of your accounts subbed to PS+ for all other accounts on that machine to gain online MP.

 

[ReturnOfTheRAT]

"Principal competitor." I like that term.

 

[KungFucius]

So PS4 is profitable from day one? I could swear that someone else in Sony said that you need to get ps+ and a game to get profit.

Sounds to me like a projection. "Launching at 399 will make us profitable ( because people will buy games and many will sign up for PS+)"

 

[Marc]

The RRP nonsense kind of ruins the digital market. But retail games will still be discounted, right?

In store? That RRP was only just announced so I am not sure if they will raise prices or not as at the moment its all preorder. Once you have the console there is nothing stopping stores raising the prices and pointing at that RRP as an excuse.

And yeah... a digital future of increased prices, less consumer rights, lack of drive space available, terrible broadband... seriously don't get the people who bought into it.

What ridiculous RRP?
In france that's the same RRP that ps3 games
Killzone Shadowfall RRP is 69.99
Beyond two souls RRP is 69.99

Can't speak for France, for the UK the RRP is £50 for PS3 and £60 for PS4. A new game like AC4 is going for £39 on PS3 and £49 on PS4, so it has gone up 10 pounds even when they discount. And that is from Amazon UK, usually the cheapest for new games.

That is not in line with their previous statements of keeping current RRP, which we know now is a lie for the UK at least.

 

[Udham]

Won't make a blind bit of difference, you only need to have one of your accounts subbed to PS+ for all other accounts on that machine to gain online MP.

Yuppp...so it will remain unchanged. In fact, this will now spread to Xbox too.

 

[bryanee]

I really wish I hadn't read that. The urge to buy one at launch is reaching almost critical levels...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoqDYcCDOTg

 

[Marvel]

I really enjoyed reading that, thanks OP.

 

[AranhaHunter]

Seems like remote play/second screen play will not be limited to vita and will be on ios/androd as well.

Sony is releasing Ratchet into the nexus on mobiles now, hopefully they will release more legacy games in the ios store/google play sooner rather than later as well.

 

[S¡mon]

That €399 includes VAT though right? The US $399 price doesn't include any tax at all. So if you strip out VAT it translates to ~$450 assuming a 20% VAT. Not perfect, but not a crazy price increase either.

Yep, the price of the PS4 without taxes (in the Netherlands) is €324.75, or with todays exchange rate: $446.82.

So that's a $46.82 premium over the US price. Remember: in Europe you get a standard warranty of 2 years, so that might be one of the reasons why the price is slightly higher. Also, let's not forget that the Eurozone has not been stable for the last couple of years with €1 = $1.20 - $1.50 in the last few years.

It's a fair price from Sony, and the only reason why customers pay so much is because of government taxes.

 

[Codeblew]

EU has always gotten boned on prices. 399 EU comes out to about $550. It should be well into a profit margin.

Taxes included in that price, not included in US price. It is much closer in price when you consider that.

 

[BigDug13]

I'm surprised the console is profitable right off the bat on launch day for the PS4. Is this a first? I mean, you usually hear time and time again how much a company loses on the sales early in a generation.

MS and Sony both did not make as much early as they wanted to. Sony due to $250-$300 loss on each system sold and MS due to releasing a known broken design that cost them $1 billion in recalls. I don't think anyone is doing the subsidized console model anymore, including Nintendo who hasn't done that in years.

(Though Nintendo did that for a bit with 3DS price drop early, but that market was too important to lose for them.)

 

[Udham]

When determining whether the console is being sold at profit do they consider only the BoM or even the RnD cost on say first 10m units?
Also bit curious if anyone has done analysis for BoM costs for Xb1 and PS4.

 

[DBT85]

When determining whether the console is being sold at profit do they consider only the BoM or even the RnD cost on say first 10m units?
Also bit curious if anyone has done analysis for BoM costs for Xb1 and PS4.

ZOMGWTFBBQ has, he works in finance somewhere where they do these things.

As for selling at profit, it is unlikely to only be the BOM.

 

[Carl]

Can't speak for France, for the UK the RRP is £50 for PS3 and £60 for PS4. A new game like AC4 is going for £39 on PS3 and £49 on PS4, so it has gone up 10 pounds even when they discount. And that is from Amazon UK, usually the cheapest for new games.

That is not in line with their previous statements of keeping current RRP, which we know now is a lie for the UK at least.

Next gen tax. Retailers know you'll want to buy some games to go with your new system so they can pretty much charge what they like. For the first few months of PS3 it was a struggle to find games for less than £50. The prices soon fell

 

[simplythebest]

In the US there are more competition forcing prices lower, as well as the fact that buying power in Europe relative to other currency is better.

This means in general products in Europe cost more than in the US, although they are all manufactured in mostly Asian countries.

Electronic buying power in Europe is better than in the US.

Sony already stated that they are loosing money on every PS4 sold and I'm assuming they meant US at the time. Could be other regions, but there is no conclusive evidence or information.

 

[Udham]

ZOMGWTFBBQ has, he works in finance somewhere where they do these things.

As for selling at profit, it is unlikely to only be the BOM.

Muchas gracias. Found it.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=514688

Seems It's borderline profitable. :|

 

[Vashetti]

Sony is releasing Ratchet into the nexus on mobiles now, hopefully they will release more legacy games in the ios store/google play sooner rather than later as well.

BEFORE the Nexus is tailored to mobiles and is nowhere near on the scale or graphical quality of Into the Nexus.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoqDYcCDOTg

I'm giving it serious thought. If I happen to find myself near a Game/HMV/John Lewis on launch day and they happen to have some free stock, I'll probably be going home with one and Knack...

I actually wonder if that's true. There have been threads about European orders for the PS4 and how major stores are telling people that pre-orders are booked through the beginning of next year.

This is actually a good point. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some free stock though and my local Game reps seemed more than a little confident that they'd have some free stock on launch day too.

 

[coolasj19]

This is probably going to go massively better with required PS+ and not losing $200 per unit sold -_-

 

[MikeE21286]

I don't think those comments confirm that the hardware is profitable really.

 

[CorrisD]

Can't speak for France, for the UK the RRP is £50 for PS3 and £60 for PS4. A new game like AC4 is going for £39 on PS3 and £49 on PS4, so it has gone up 10 pounds even when they discount. And that is from Amazon UK, usually the cheapest for new games.

That is not in line with their previous statements of keeping current RRP, which we know now is a lie for the UK at least.

It's the start of a new generation, prices always rise closer to their RRP, it happens every time, there are less people to buy that version of the game so retailers are less likely to take less of a cut of the game than usual. When there are millions of the consoles out there and a bigger audience to buy the game the price will go up. The same thing happened with some later releases on PS3 when 360 games came over, they were £49+, most likely because they came out later with no big advertising to go with them and as such less people would pick them up.

I think people are too quick to forget game prices haven't risen with inflation like pretty much everything else, the 49.99 for a game in 2005/6 isn't the same 49.99 we have now. If anything we are paying less for games now than we ever have before, and games have gotten far more expensive to make compared to how much they were 10 years ago.

 

[Takao]

Seems like remote play/second screen play will not be limited to vita and will be on ios/androd as well.

Sony is releasing Ratchet into the nexus on mobiles now, hopefully they will release more legacy games in the ios store/google play sooner rather than later as well.

What?

Edit: That's some endless runner junk called Ratchet & Clank: Before the Nexus

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2013...ailer-unveiled-before-the-nexus-app-detailed/

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Bit unfair to call it junk before even playing it.

 

[Marc]

It's the start of a new generation, prices always rise closer to their RRP, it happens every time, there are less people to buy that version of the game so retailers are less likely to take less of a cut of the game than usual. When there are millions of the consoles out there and a bigger audience to buy the game the price will go up. The same thing happened with some later releases on PS3 when 360 games came over, they were £49+, most likely because they came out later with no big advertising to go with them and as such less people would pick them up.

I think people are too quick to forget game prices haven't risen with inflation like pretty much everything else, the 49.99 for a game in 2005/6 isn't the same 49.99 we have now. If anything we are paying less for games now than we ever have before, and games have gotten far more expensive to make compared to how much they were 10 years ago.

Yeah, but its not being applied to the US so essentially having to subsidize that price and it goes against what they originally said.

People also forget that most jobs haven't actually increased in pay over the years, that the gap in wealth has however significantly increased in that time. Rich people are richer, poor people are poorer. Also manufacturing costs are way lower than they were, discs cost nothing compared to cartridges. A big chunk of the human element is gone in presses as well. Sales are also way higher, along with the whole digital sale angle. Compared to ten years ago these consoles were being sold at a huge loss, with the 360 they lost billions. That's not happening this time, well not to that extent. Also being forced to pay for multiplayer in Sony's case now.

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

I really want to see Gaikai in action although I think it will be rebranded by the time we finally see it.

 

[AranhaHunter]

BEFORE the Nexus is tailored to mobiles and is nowhere near on the scale or graphical quality of Into the Nexus.

What?

Edit: That's some endless runner junk called Ratchet & Clank: Before the Nexus

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2013...ailer-unveiled-before-the-nexus-app-detailed/

That's the game I meant and was thinking about. Sorry about the confusion. Never suggested it looked better than the one coming out for PS3/PSV. I'm actually looking forward to trying this out, actually.

 

[Takao]

Bit unfair to call it junk before even playing it.

It's part of the endless runner genre.