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[Rodolfo Brito]

It's honestly impressively sad to see how there are still some fucking IDIOTS on this forum going all "uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that's just western media, don't believe what you've heard! I'm a rich privileged piece of shit and I know that everything is fine down there and only the rich are actually 'suffering'!", ESPECIALLY when there's been quite a few gaffers on this very fucking thread saying what's going on in Venezuela.

What the fuck is wrong with people?

We call them "caviar left" in Brazil.
Most of them are people who have some connection with the public service (wich in Brazil pays several times more than a regular worker of a regular private company). The rest of them are "artists" that only work under "subsidized" government financial support. These people make movies, tv shows, theater performances with money that comes from the government tax break. They are really pro government and you can imagine why.

 

[Corronchilejano]

I know. It's just so dumb on so many levels.

Off topic, but I also saw this image of people crossing a river to vote. While the fact that a government that requires people to cross a river to vote despite being in power for nearly 20 years is a terrible endorsement for a government, that's not what I'm interested in. What I am interested in is that above the girl's on the lefts hat, there appears to be a path to cross the river.

Considering a lot of Venezuelans also have to cross rivers to go into Colombia (since the border was closed), I'd hold off on saying this is legit, specially with its source.

 

[Rodolfo Brito]

I know. It's just so dumb on so many levels.

Off topic, but I also saw this image of people crossing a river to vote. While the fact that a government that requires people to cross a river to vote despite being in power for nearly 20 years is a terrible endorsement for a government, that's not what I'm interested in. What I am interested in is that above the girl's on the lefts hat, there appears to be a path to cross the river.

It is pretty common to latin america governments to keep the poorer under a "social program" leash. They send these people little amounts of money monthly and then, when the election is coming aorund the corner, they put fear among these people saying that, if teh opposition wins, the social programs will be cut and they will starve to death.

That's how Dilma won the fraudulent 2014 election in Brazil. for exemple.

 

[RM8]

We're only getting one side of this story from US media.

Look at other sources as well. You can't really trust reporting from certain outlets once a nation is in the "regime change" cross hairs.

My other sources are my Venezuelan friends in Mexico, at least. Guess what, they say shit sucks in their country as much as it pains them, as much as they wish that wasn't true. People in this thread need to get a grip, for real. Can you imagine doubting the collective testimony of people who have escaped from, say, North Korea? There's probably people who do that...

 

[YesThatGuy]

I've looked. While the theories are good in theory, Socialist, Communist, and Marxist ideology falls apart when it's put into practice. Meanwhile, warts and all, Capitalism has the best track record for providing for a population.*

*only applies if such population is white, Christian and American.

Look at Europe. These theories have been applied there for DECADES.

 

[Insane Metal]

The media is crazy in how Venezuela is covered. These attacks were from the opposition party. (Opposition party who is completely backed by the US) It seems that the best course of action is to constantly have the opposition attack and protest while having the media portray it as another one of Maduros dirty tricks. It is seriously discouraging when so much of the western media continue to question when will Maduro step down. He was democratically elected by his own people and last I checked is very popular there. He is somewhere in the 60's of approval ratings. More popular than the Mexican president, Colombian president and the illegitimate Michel Temer of Brazil yet Venezuela is always on the cross hairs for regime change. The constituent assembly is radical for several reasons but the most frightening to the west is the fact that it gives more power to the people in decision making and planning for local areas in Valenzuela. The opposition is ENCOURAGED to join in on the assembly but they want no part in it. Gee I wonder why?..
I have family friends out there in Venezuela and the one constant thing they hate about the media is how they don't cover things straight. The Bolivarian revolution is popular for a reason and I can see why the West is frightened by that..

This is the biggest bullshit I've read this year. Stop.

 

[moffattron9000]

*only applies if such population is white, Christian and American.

Look at Europe. These theories have been applied there for DECADES.

All of Europe is capitalist. They just have a bigger safety net. I mean the EU at its core is a giant Free Trade Agreement, which helps make more free trade agreements.

Furthermore, Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong Taiwan, and Singapore have all embraced capitalism, and now have living standards comparable to Western Europe and America. That's before we even get to what's happening in China.

And if you think that this has ignored Africa, it's just getting there, as living standards have notably increased in Southern Africa. That's before we get to the jewel in African development that is Botswana. What's happened there is not that far off of a miracle.

 

[Kin5290]

*only applies if such population is white, Christian and American.

Look at Europe. These theories have been applied there for DECADES.

"Applied." You remember that the USSR collapsed, right?

The legacy of Karl Marx in Europe is a former spook-turned-strongman's oligarchic kleptocracy.

 

[Funky Papa]

I don't think this conversation is going to move anywhere until folks understand that socialism and social democracy are different ideologies with just some common elements besides the "social" part.

 

[Harl3]

Video of the Maduro's"victory" speech.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/892012698686427136

 

[chepu]

Pretty much. Maduro has a fucking mess on his hands due to the collapse of the oil prices and sensing a coup he centralized power on the executive. But the way the opposition has been white washed is insane, and they are an even a bigger threat to the Venezuelan people. I don't know if the constituent will help or damage things, but I do think it's a sensible decision to try to establish some order without violence, and Venezuela's elections have been said to be one of the most transparent in the world. The problem is that without the opposition participating, the results won't be representative.

But the pro Maduro people definately showed up to tote despite the violence and the number of election equipment trashed and burnt
https://twitter.com/javierrivasr33/status/891801738637922307

Here's people having to cross a fucking river since the roads have been occupied by terrorists
https://twitter.com/almeidapsuv/status/891692877474127875

BUT what makes us mad is that you are hard on believeing that while there are lots of us telling people like you it is not like that.

We lived the good the bad and the ugly of chavez revolution and ARE CURENTLY IN A LIVING HELL due to chavez legacy and maduro corruption and authoritarism

We arent saying that the opposition is the saviour of the world, there are lots of guys/girls in there that are Terribad, but they are actively trying to solve things.

The constituent you are saying might be a good idea abolishes all the democraticly elect charges like mayors and governors, and proposes lots of communists reforms while adding nothing to solve our country problems.

I HAVE SEEN PEOPLE EATING FROM THE TRASH! MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS ARE SKINNY AF AND LIVING THROUGH ENDLESS QEUES/LINES.

There was supposed to be elections in december for mayors and governors and maduros government didnt make them because of reasons BUT they did the constituent elections nobody wanted.

Come on, dont try and defend stuff like that, ive seen ruined lives, families and so on because of chavez/maduros government.

My own life! We are the ones suffering all of it and yet our posts seems invisible regarding this.

 

[Linkark07]

Video of the Maduro's"victory" speech.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/892012698686427136

Maburro is just an ignorant dictator who is still trying to pretend his government is doing the best for his people.

I'm hoping we can see the day in which he and all his loyal cronies are behind bars for the rest of their lives.

Pretty much. Maduro has a fucking mess on his hands due to the collapse of the oil prices and sensing a coup he centralized power on the executive. But the way the opposition has been white washed is insane, and they are an even a bigger threat to the Venezuelan people. I don't know if the constituent will help or damage things, but I do think it's a sensible decision to try to establish some order without violence, and Venezuela's elections have been said to be one of the most transparent in the world. The problem is that without the opposition participating, the results won't be representative.

How can you even say that? I know Venezuelans who say Maburro has done electoral fraud. And I believe them.

After he lost the Legislative Power, Maburro has been doing everything to stop the opposition continue gaining more power, like withholding elections. And, if he can with the Constituent, he might try to stay in power until the end of his days.

Hell, even now, he is threatening anyone who opposes him, including the lawmakers.

 

[Carlius]

civil war will break out soon and its going to be bad...

 

[Eylos]

I don't think this conversation is going to move anywhere until folks understand that socialism and social democracy are different ideologies with just some common elements besides the "social" part.

You are talking of reformism not social democracy.

 

[Funky Papa]

civil war will break out soon and its going to be bad...

Chávez already did the very dictator-like thing of splitting the army in two to create an ideologically driven militia in order to avoid a coup, so I don't really see a quick way out.

You are talking of reformism not social democracy.

I'm afraid I don't understand.

 

[gutter_trash]

Chavez filled up the military with Cuban born officers who are loyal to Castro.

Their loyalty is to ideology not Venezuelans.

 

[Funky Papa]

Chavez filled up the military with Cuban born officers who are loyal to Castro.

Their loyalty is to ideology not Venezuelans.

That's the lesser of the problems. The big one is the National Bolivarian Militia of Venezuela, which reports directly to the president and could act as the de facto army of Maduro if things get sideways.

Notice the similarities with pretty much every other authoritarian regime. Bad things are afoot the very second some ruler decides to create their own praetorian guard.

 

[Linkark07]

That's the lesser of the problems. The big one is the National Bolivarian Militia of Venezuela, which reports directly to the president and could act as the de facto army of Maduro if things get sideways.

Notice the similarities with pretty much every other authoritarian regime. Bad things are afoot the very second some ruler decides to create their own praetorian guard.

Don't forget the Colectivos, who are also threatening the population and are backed by the government.

 

[Funky Papa]

Don't forget the Colectivos, who are also threatening the population and are backed by the government.

Chávez literally took a page from Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and Basij (basically low rank thugs terrorising the opposition). It's kind of uncanny.

 

[Corronchilejano]

Don't forget the Colectivos, who are also threatening the population and are backed by the government.

They're pretty much urban paramilitaries

 

[Eylos]

Chávez already did the very dictator-like thing of splitting the army in two to create an ideologically driven militia in order to avoid a coup, so I don't really see a quick way out.


I'm afraid I don't understand.

Its quite big to explain and i'm lazy, but they are different, check reformism, bernstein, social democracy on Wikipedia should give an Idea.

 

[Kthulhu]

Fuck me, I wish USA still intervened like the old days down here. The 21th century has made them pussies.

Go all Noriega on Maduro, it's all I have left to hope for.

And I have personally donated and assisted for materials for making Molotov bombs and other things. These bastards are murderers, we're not going to turn the other cheek,

We're tired of seeing our friends and family coming home in body bags. I feel for your situation, but solve your own damn problems.

 

[Kormyon]

Here you can see the "tremendous" support for Maduro himself in his celebration speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh9CAXxWETc

 

[MrChocolate]

Here's the thing: Maduro's opposition has shown time and time again to be corrupt, violent and murderous. Just because Maduro is an asshole doesn't mean that the people against him are not capable of despicable acts of violence and (yes) terrorism.

Maduro is an awful, authoritarian leader who doesn't believe in democracy nor wants any of it unless it happens to work for him (read: in his own benefit). He'll gladly launch a self-coup if he feels like that's the only way he can remain in power.

The politicians leading the opposition are also a bunch of protodespots and pro-coupists working towards the benefit of a few while pretending to be at the forefront of a democratic uprising. There's nothing benign about Capriles and his close circle. His saintly image is at odds with his deeds and ties.

Venezuela is at the brink of civil war. While people protesting against Maduro are damn right in doing so, the politicians in charge of the opposition are outright vile and shouldn't be trusted at all. It's not unlike what happened in Brazil just a few months ago. Only this time people are dying on the streets and there's a chance things may take a turn for the worse.

Feel free to pick a side if that's what you want. Just be mindful of the fact that everybody is incredibly dirty and that there's a glaring lack of democratic values at the top of both movements.

Bravo. This kind of analysis is beyond the stupidity of NY Times or the Washington Post.

Just imagine if internet were widely available on the 70s. So many coups in South America could have been prevented.

 

[Trojita]

Can I get any articles about the opposition (which seems to be formed of many member groups) are as bad, nearly as bad, or worse than Maduro?

 

[Abilidebob]

Bravo. This kind of analysis is beyond the stupidity of NY Times or the Washington Post.

Just imagine if internet were widely available on the 70s. So many coups in South America could have been prevented.

Ehhhh, you'd still have the full backing of the US in most of them, and with the internet it'd be even easier for them to control things.

 

[Izayoi]

This thread reminds me of the dudes in Syria threads who defend al-Assad (or his regime), or the Dubai threads where people defend the rampant sexism and slave trade.

We've got some interesting ones here, that's for sure.

 

[Funky Papa]

Can I get any articles about the opposition (which seems to be formed of many member groups) are as bad, nearly as bad, or worse than Maduro?

I don't think that's possible. And not just because Maduro happens to be one of the most incompetent, venal leaders of the past few decades.

As bad, nearly or worse than Maduro would be quite the accomplishment considering that Maduro holds nearly all the power and has the finesse of a troglodite. Lately there's been a few incidents of roadside bombs aiming at the police and that crazed policeman (Óscar Pérez) who took an helicopter and attacked the highest court using grenades. Then there's widespread sectarian violence. The problem is that international mainstream media rarely make political distinctions between the victims, which means you get extreme one-sided reporting from the usual partisan outlets. Radicalism thrives across the entire spectrum of Venezuelan politics, although Maduro has the benefit of owning the resources of the state.

Still, the best way to measure the moral and democratic character of the leading opposition figures (I'm using opposition in very broad terms, as that's basically anybody not running under Maduro's flag) would be to look into the business ties of the Capriles family, the allegations of corruption linked to the Odebrecht scandal and the rather disturbing coordination with Spain's PP to hurl made up accusations against Podemos (which has a history of being cozy with the Venezuelan government). This bizarre display of transatlantic support implies the existence of extremely close ties between Venezuelan rightish oppositors and Spanish conservatives, whom were kept abreast of the 2002 failed coup and supported Pedro Carmona right off the bat. There's quite a bit of international intrigue there if you are willing to dive into a mountain of mostly RT and Telesur trash.

The situation in Venezuela is not unlike the one prior a major civil conflict such as Syria's. You've got an authocratic, corrupt government silencing anybody protesting against it, raging yet decent people standing against Dear Leader, corrupt politicians willing to make a tidy profit (conservative leaders coming from old money, corrupt chavists getting rich off two-faced businessmen and their own "revolutionary" schemes) and ultraconservative nutjobs trying counter Maduro's own. It's an ugly, complex situation with many internal and international interests throw in that will degenerate into something worse if it's allowed to continue.

They are not even remotely comparable. There's only one government suppressing dissent after all. But the situation is such a huge mess that using black and white optics is futile, specially since the opposition is a political kaleidoscope. Civil conflicts are messy affairs like that. I honestly think it's time for a UN mandate.

 

[Jackpot]

This thread reminds me of the dudes in Syria threads who defend al-Assad (or his regime), or the Dubai threads where people defend the rampant sexism and slave trade.

We've got some interesting ones here, that's for sure.

Some of them are the same people.

 

[Funky Papa]

Some of them are the same people.

"They can't be that bad if they oppose NATO/US".

 

[Foxy the Fox]

Is messed up what's going on out there.

I suppone the number of Venezuelans coming to Peru each week is going to grow up I guess. I would do the same tbh.

 

[Valhelm]

It is pretty common to latin america governments to keep the poorer under a "social program" leash. They send these people little amounts of money monthly and then, when the election is coming aorund the corner, they put fear among these people saying that, if teh opposition wins, the social programs will be cut and they will starve to death.

That's how Dilma won the fraudulent 2014 election in Brazil. for exemple.

But this will happen if the opposition seizes control of Venezuela. The CIA would not be so invested in this conflict if they didn't believe their proxies would dismantle Venezuelan social democracy.

 

[Conciliator]

you can always tell when an internet propaganda campaign has been effective when dudes show up on GAF defending authoritarians with Infowars-sounding bullshit.

 

[Valhelm]

you can always tell when an internet propaganda campaign has been effective when dudes show up on GAF defending authoritarians with Infowars-sounding bullshit.

I don't like Maduro. But there's just no evidence suggesting that the opposition would be better.

Show me a viable left-wing alternative to the PSUV and I will support them. But replacing the government with a rogue's gallery of disenfranchised capitalists and Western intelligence assets won't solve any of the country's problems.

Poligaf regulars know that I'm not a fan of the Democrats, by I would never vote for the GOP out of spite. Because the Venezuelan opposition appears to be at least as corrupt and violent and the government, and broadly seeks to abolish the Venezuelan welfare state, there's no reason to support them.

 

[clemenx]

Dictatorship forces just kidnapped a political prisoner that was in house arrest.Look at how these scumbags act.

https://twitter.com/Sasmora/status/892255562502737920

This is most likely in retaliation of a video he released today encouraging the people to keep protesting.

Chavismo in general is waaaaay past the point of justice. They're going to be met with vengeance.


Oh, and buddy above me. There's no such thing as Venezuelan welfare state. You've been propaganda's I'm afraid.

 

[And_Gignac]

Yeah.

Maduro ain't ending this crisis as a free man.

 

[Simplet]

I don't like Maduro. But there's just no evidence suggesting that the opposition would be better.

Show me a viable left-wing alternative to the PSUV and I will support them. But replacing the government with a rogue's gallery of disenfranchised capitalists and Western intelligence assets won't solve any of the country's problems.

Poligaf regulars know that I'm not a fan of the Democrats, by I would never vote for the GOP out of spite. Because the Venezuelan opposition appears to be at least as corrupt and violent and the government, and broadly seeks to abolish the Venezuelan welfare state, there's no reason to support them.

I don't understand this attitude, it makes zero sense. The regime is a leftist dictatorship, obviously the viable alternative is going to be on the right. How do you organize a leftist opposition when the left is already in power and trying to capture all the traditional supports of the left with ideology or clientelism?

Your only chance is to find a broad center-right coalition that everyone can rally to. That doesn't mean supporting far-right zealots, but that doesn't mean wait for the country to fall into civil war until you get the exact shade of socialism or social-democracy you personnaly want.

 

[Funky Papa]

I don't understand this attitude, it makes zero sense. The regime is a leftist dictatorship, obviously the viable alternative is going to be on the right.

The opposition includes a range of left-wing politicians, from social democrats to hardcore communists who hate Maduro's guts. So it's not like there's a vacuum.

The thing with Maduro is that anybody not called Maduro is the opposition. He's no Putin. He doesn't have a number of vassal parties and allies masquerading his machinations as a democracy. It's him or the highway.

 

[Simplet]

The opposition includes a range of left-wing politicians, from social democrats to hardcore communists who hate Maduro's guts.

I mean, sure. But they're going to have to form a coalition, and the center of gravity will most probably be center/center-right. (Most of) these people will probably have to rally between an opposition leader if they want to have any chance of being effective.

 

[Rodolfo Brito]

But this will happen if the opposition seizes control of Venezuela. The CIA would not be so invested in this conflict if they didn't believe their proxies would dismantle Venezuelan social democracy.

I don't think you have evidence to support neither of these claims.

 

[clemenx]

There's already a coalition formed and its been there for 10 years at least. But at this point the opposition are Maduro's puppets for the most part. I suspect of any politician who's not jailed at this point.

 

[Tomasoares]

Maduro ordered the arrest of the opposition leaders.

 

[Rodolfo Brito]

Maduro ordered the arrest of the opposition leaders.

But... as some major left brazilian parties says, there is too much democracy in Venezuela.
What a shitshow.

 

[Harl3]

Maduro ordered the arrest of the opposition leaders.

In my city, the mayor (opposition) was arrested, and they put someone else as the new mayor (obviously not with the opposition).

I love Democracy <3

 

[Rodolfo Brito]

https://twitter.com/liliantintori/status/892270054045253634

Straight up kidnapping.

 

[clemenx]

Trump releases statement condemning Maduro. Calls for release of all political prisoners.
https://mobile.twitter.com/NBCNews/status/892547380104622080/photo/1

It's a very clear and to the point statement. Glad he's not acting like a buffoon I'm this matter, lol. I hope we are near of harsher sanctions against the regime.

 

[moffattron9000]

Trump releases statement condemning Maduro. Calls for release of all political prisoners.
https://mobile.twitter.com/NBCNews/status/892547380104622080/photo/1

It's a very clear and to the point statement. Glad he's not acting like a buffoon I'm this matter, lol. I hope we are near of harsher sanctions against the regime.

At least he seems to of deferred to the adults here (although I'm fairly sure that it's mostly out of apathy).

 

[shockthrill]

Venezuela must be free from this nightmare

 

[MisterFalcon]

Former mayor of London 'Red' Ken Livingstone knows what went wrong: not enough summary executions of rich people and their families. Like the kulaks of the Soviet Union their very existence is the doom of the revolution.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...gstone-venezuela-crisis-hugo-chavez-oligarchs

”One of the things that Chávez did when he came to power, he didn't kill all the oligarchs. There was about 200 families who controlled about 80% of the wealth in Venezuela," Livingstone told Talk Radio.

200 Families, at 25 people per family that's just 5000 people that should have been given a bullet in the neck Blokhin style and the revolution would have worked. Well, better luck next time.