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Miscreated PC - First game to use SVOGI lighting

Thraktor

Member

I've seen the sponza demo, but I'd still want to see how well it's implemented in an actual game, particularly when you're talking about a voxel-based GI method in an open-world game, where there's going to be a difficult trade off between wanting the voxelization to be fine grained enough to accommodate small detail and coarse grained enough not to cripple performance. Even in the sponza demo you can see a certain amount of blockiness (for want of a better word) in the GI as the light source moves, and that's in an incredibly small scene, so naturally I'd want to see how it would handle itself in a real game environment.

Yes, I was being a bit hyperbolic about the lighting, but you'd have to admit that they've gone out of their way to make the "normal" pics look as bad as possible, dialing the ambient right up and seemingly disabling every lighting feature cryengine has bar shadow maps.

SVOGI will not look like standard pre baked light maps in a great number of scenarios actually because it can revoxelize and be dynamic. AO for example, the changing lighting of a moving shadow, or even specular reflections. Something light maps really do not do.

Hence why I said almost. Though none of these scenarios would be evident in the screenshots shown.
 
I don't see how those shots show off any form of GI. They look like someone just turned up the contrast setting :/
I noticed the lack of radiosity too (diffuse inter-reflections). Most of their shaders also look quite flat - no specular of translucency as far as I can see. (other than the water shader).

Do they need to switch to PBR to support radiosity? They started working on converting their shaders to PBR in 2014, but they don't seem to be working just yet.
 
I noticed the lack of radiosity too (diffuse inter-reflections). Most of their shaders also look quite flat - no specular of translucency as far as I can see. (other than the water shader)..
Well, most material outdoors are always diffuse.. so they will be rather "flat" as well as not offer up much in terms of radiosity. Dark greens and browns just do not reflect too much... but they do occlude quite a bit.

All the illum shader work follows their PBS work flow, glass (translucent materials in general as you mention)on the other hand... only follows it as of 3.7+ (supporint specular and other lighting properties). You have to set it up individually per translucent material as it is expensive.
Do they need to switch to PBR to support radiosity? They started working on converting their shaders to PBR in 2014, but they don't seem to be working just yet
Are you talking about cryengine or the game? Running the game in the newest version of the engine, regardless, pushes anything iwth the illum shader through the PBS pipeline. They just have to have their material settings and gloss maps be correct for the material to look right.

There is also a per material setting where you can override what indirect light color it gives off.

Yes, I was being a bit hyperbolic about the lighting, but you'd have to admit that they've gone out of their way to make the "normal" pics look as bad as possible, dialing the ambient right up and seemingly disabling every lighting feature cryengine has bar shadow maps.
They really did not try and make them look bad. The couple of the ways to set up occlusion or indirect lighting in CE (as of the time before SVOGI was added) did not work with changing times of day. This game always had a dynamic TOD, so they cannot take advantage of anything other than cubemaps which switch every hour or so. Cryengine, when set up to be perfectly dynamic... HAS to look like that as of the time before SVOGI. Ryse doesn't have that because they set up all the artist placed/ only work for static scenes kind of probe modifiers and occlusion geometry.
Hence why I said almost. Though none of these scenarios would be evident in the screenshots shown.
I recommend watching the posted video to show off the difference.
I've seen the sponza demo, but I'd still want to see how well it's implemented in an actual game, particularly when you're talking about a voxel-based GI method in an open-world game, where there's going to be a difficult trade off between wanting the voxelization to be fine grained enough to accommodate small detail and coarse grained enough not to cripple performance. Even in the sponza demo you can see a certain amount of blockiness (for want of a better word) in the GI as the light source moves, and that's in an incredibly small scene, so naturally I'd want to see how it would handle itself in a real game environment.
THere are a diverse amount of settings regarding GI distance and how the varying voxel sizes scale over the distance. Miscreated uses a much further distance (in the thousands) instead of something like sonza which is set up to use a value in the hundreds. I recommend trying the point light demo in sponza to see exactly how fast moving lights look in the SVOGI. The large sun based changes in the voxel GI have a staggered update that is exagerrated in the spzona demo because you can rapidly change the time of day.
 

Thraktor

Member
I noticed the lack of radiosity too (diffuse inter-reflections). Most of their shaders also look quite flat - no specular of translucency as far as I can see. (other than the water shader).

Do they need to switch to PBR to support radiosity? They started working on converting their shaders to PBR in 2014, but they don't seem to be working just yet.

This shot seems to show some GI:

Chair fail:

yyxOoaP.jpg

Look at the wall to the left of the door, it appears to be indirectly lit by the floor. That said, the table leg should be similarly lit but isn't, which comes back to my concerns about the coarseness of the voxelization.
 

Durante

Member
This shot seems to show some GI:



Look at the wall to the left of the door, it appears to be indirectly lit by the floor. That said, the table leg should be similarly lit but isn't, which comes back to my concerns about the coarseness of the voxelization.

Yeah, I really feel that compared to the Fable solution, it's much harder to see consistent GI here.

If you look at these:
Arch_Layers_justAmbientCube.jpg

Arch_Layers_final.jpg


You really see stuff happening as you would expect: the right-facing rocks are more lit and in an ochre-ish color because of sunlight light reflected off the ochre-ish ground. On the other hand, facing the vegetation on to of the arch they are tinted more green-ish. Above all though, the directionality of everything seems to make more sense.
 
Look at the wall to the left of the door, it appears to be indirectly lit by the floor. That said, the table leg should be similarly lit but isn't, which comes back to my concerns about the coarseness of the voxelization.

I do not own the game, but this is the voxelisation coarseness in the sponza demo:
_sponza_2015_10_03_1485uqa.png


Near camera objects have a very high level of voxelisation.. I imagine it is similar in miscreated. Rather... their darkness comes from their dark material set up and their use of portals in houses.
If you look at these:
snip

You really see stuff happening as you would expect: the right-facing rocks are more lit and in an ochre-ish color because of sunlight light reflected off the ochre-ish ground. On the other hand, facing the vegetation on to of the arch they are tinted more green-ish. Above all though, the directionality of everything seems to make more sense.

I think that level of bounce light is a bit exagerrated given the visual flair of Fable. I am not sure how realistic that level of bounce light is.
 

Thraktor

Member
They really did not try and make them look bad. The couple of the ways to set up occlusion or indirect lighting in CE (as of the time before SVOGI was added) did not work with changing times of day. This game always had a dynamic TOD, so they cannot take advantage of anything other than cubemaps which switch every hour or so. Cryengine, when set up to be perfectly dynamic... HAS to look like that as of the time before SVOGI. Ryse doesn't have that because they set up all the artist placed/ only work for static scenes kind of probe modifiers and occlusion geometry.

That's a fair point, although when I don't even see SSAO in a "before" picture I tend to assume the worst.

I recommend watching the posted video to show off the difference.

I just had a quick look at it (I didn't notice it earlier), and it does show a couple of specular reflections here or there (e.g. on the bin bags), but I still can't really pass judgement on a dynamic GI solution without seeing it in a dynamic environment (i.e. a video).

THere are a diverse amount of settings regarding GI distance and how the varying voxel sizes scale over the distance. Miscreated uses a much further distance (in the thousands) instead of something like sonza which is set up to use a value in the hundreds. I recommend trying the point light demo in sponza to see exactly how fast moving lights look in the SVOGI. The large sun based changes in the voxel GI have a staggered update that is exagerrated in the spzona demo because you can rapidly change the time of day.

This is precisely the point, though, that the higher distance corresponds to a coarser voxelization, which corresponds to a lower fidelity GI. This could still show artefacts like the blockiness I talked of from point light sources, depending on the scenario.

Edit:
I do not own the game, but this is the voxelisation coarseness in the sponza demo:
_sponza_2015_10_03_1485uqa.png


Near camera objects have a very high level of voxelisation.. I imagine it is similar in miscreated. Rather... their darkness comes from their dark material set up and their use of portals in houses.

Thanks, I hadn't seen that. Even with a dynamic voxelization like that you would still expect an open-world title to be coarser in general, though.
 

Durante

Member
I think that level of bounce light is a bit exagerrated given the visual flair of Fable. I am not sure how realistic that level of bounce light is.
It may not be realistic, but it's consistent and the directionality is correct. Of course, it also helps that the no-GI comparison shot is set up to be much closer in overall lighting, and is thus much easier to compare.
 
Look at the wall to the left of the door, it appears to be indirectly lit by the floor. That said, the table leg should be similarly lit but isn't, which comes back to my concerns about the coarseness of the voxelization.

Look at the chair going through the edge of the table :)
 
I think the shadows are too dark in many areas, but it looks alright. It's missing the normalisation we do with our eyes, and the sky is a bit too bright.
 
Well, most material outdoors are always diffuse.. so they will be rather "flat" as well as not offer up much in terms of radiosity. Dark greens and browns just do not reflect too much... but they do occlude quite a bit.
If all their materials were diffuse you should still notice more diffuse interreflections, e.g. green color bleed from grass and leaves.
You also need a certain amount of glossiness and translucency to sell the look of vegetation, as seen in the lionhead GI demo posted by durante:
And as you can see in the video posted earlier, shaders look flat and unconvincing, compared to other games using physically based shaders.
order 1886 shader example
but maybe it's not fair to hold an indie game to a high standard.

edit: beaten by durante.
 
but maybe it's not fair to hold a indie game to a high standard..
Regarding materials, yeah I can only agree.
It may not be realistic, but it's consistent and the directionality is correct. Of course, it also helps that the no-GI comparison shot is set up to be much closer in overall lighting, and is thus much easier to compare.

Definitely. Do you think the shots from miscreated have incorrect consistency and directionality problems? I still think the general darkness in the images have to do with material set up and some HDR settings the game uses...and do no have to do with the GI method (which is more accurate than LPV). I recommend everyone look at the docsas well as any of the threads on the crydev site (the SVOTI support thread and Synce's blog).
 
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