When will we admit that the system is fucking broken? This is absurd and absolutely could have been avoided.
More here.
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Mother warns gun store about schizophrenic daughter. They ignore her. Tragedy ensues.
- Thread starter Makonero
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When will we admit that the system is fucking broken? This is absurd and absolutely could have been avoided.
More here.
yanipheonu
Member
Not the America they deserve, but the one that was asked for.
Mr.Shrugglesã
Banned
That moral responsibility.
Durrzerker
Banned
Yes, store owners have a right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.
Of course.
hydrophilic attack
Member
fuck gun culture tbqh
Lumination
'enry 'ollins
I kind of agree with the gun store. You can't just obey some random phone call and deny a sale to a customer. If they pass the checks, you don't necessarily know about their mental state under the surface. The mother should have gone to the store with proper documentation and the request. Even then, it's at the owner's discretion (though I'd argue he has a moral obligation).
The real answer here is that the government is not mandating any sort of check for mental conditions.
The real answer here is that the government is not mandating any sort of check for mental conditions.
Mammoth Jones
Member
This. The fuck. You can sell guns on the honor system. But can't not sell guns on the honor system? Meaning take the moms word for it and don't make the sale. What a piece of shit.
This doesn't sound right.
fredrancour
Member
Yes. Those "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" signs in many businesses? That applies to pretty much any reason you choose not to do business with someone other than refusing to serve in ways that have been ruled discrimination. "your mother begged us not to" and "we have been told you may do harm with our product" are not discriminatory.
John Kowalski
Banned
When the context is rich with potential for bad things to happen, it only takes one slightly less ethical action to cause all kinds of horror.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Why even risk it? There's no epidemic of fake calls to gun stores to infringe on someone gun rights.
That being said someone like her should be reported into the system to not be able to purchase a firearm.
But they still can refuse anyone.
That doesn't protect them from what the refused customer might do in retaliation to the refusal of service, though.
In any case, the gun shop owner should have refused the sale. The blood is on his hands as well.
Yes.
Stores can, for example, refuse to sell alcohol to someone who is clearly intoxicated. A store should be able to refuse selling a gun to someone even if they pass a background check.
Of course it's right. Any business can refuse service to anyone. Ever had a bartender tell you you're cut off?
Gentleman Jack
Member
What
Just trying to get into his mind here... A strong supporter of the second amendment says that everyone has the right to own a gun. What if the girl needed it for defense? What if the woman on the phone was just some overbearing parent or even a delusional liberal neighbor who had no right getting in the girl's business?
That said, no one who's been in and out of mental hospitals should be passing a background check. This should've been prevented, but I don't blame the shop owner here.
off duty ninja
Member
I don't think so actually. Not when we have so many laws to protect against discrimination in this country. If you can't choose not to bake a cake for a gay wedding I doubt you could get away with not selling a gun because someone called and told you the person was crazy.
Not that I agree with this notion but I don't see the difference legally speaking. People with Disabilities are a protected class even if the disability in this instance should disqualify them from the service provided.
The reality is that just having mental illness doesn't disqualify you from owning a gun. I believe it requires a court order of mental incompetence (don't know the right name but you get the idea) in order for mental illness to actually prevent you from buying a firearm.
Ah, well that makes sense then.
Not entirely true. You cant just straight up discriminate, for example.
Yep. Don't want to be in the business of denying people their constitutional rights. Thats a good way to end up in the national news too
Lumination
'enry 'ollins
It's not about risk. Who just obeys random phone calls they get? It's an odd thing to expect a store to do, especially without any sort proof.
Mammoth Jones
Member
They don't report diagnosis into the NICS system. Only if you've been committed against your will or have been adjudicated mentally incompetent by a judge. That's it.
Reporting is better in some states vs others. (Ex NY)
The court disagreed.
A man is dead because someone didn't heed a warning.
Also:
So the shop didn't give a fuck and still doesn't.
AtomskEater
Member
You CAN sell them a gun, but should you? Stores always reserve the right to refuse service.
On the other hand, why did her mental health history not show up on the background check?
Huh... that's interesting.
On the other hand, why did her mental health history not show up on the background check?
Huh... that's interesting.
off duty ninja
Member
Simply being diagnosed with a mental illness is not going to disqualify you from buying a firearm. There has to be an actual court order on top of the diagnosis in order for that to be the case.
I am not an expert on this but have done some research to learn more about my own rights. I could be wrong but this is what I have found.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Gun stores when someone calls stating someone has a serious mental ilness? It's happened before. Why this store decided to ignore her is beyond me. The gun store has no moral obligation to make a sale.
Err on the side of fucking caution.
John Kowalski
Banned
No one needs to take the whole blame, but the man was placed such that he could have changed the outcome of the sale, and thus represents an integral part of the problem. Problem being that capital profit is being put before the lives of those who buy and live near guns, which results in completely unnecessary and avoidable accidents, some fatal.
HawksWinStanley
Member
Yeah that's ridiculous...
Tranqueris
Banned
4+ years, at least on the federal level.
Alright, the shop sounds a bit shitty. I'll admit I don't totally support my original argument, but it's possible to imagine an alternate headline: "Woman murdered by abusive father after he blocks her gun purchase." Or you know, something snappier probably. I'm no newsman.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
What good is a background check if you don't take a mother's concern seriously and follow up on it? It's not unheard of for those with past mental health issues to be denied a firearm by owners who do their due diligence.
Lumination
'enry 'ollins
I read the article, yes. The court's decision was merely about whether or not the lawsuit was valid. The store owner settled. I disagreed with his decision because I didn't think he was in the wrong. What's your point?
Is that a common enough occurrence that there's an unspoken procedure? I don't know, I'm not familiar with that area at all.
Like everyone? Call in a bomb threat to an airport, or call your local elementary school saying someone's going to shoot it up. You'll get a response, trust me, because that's the reasonable thing to do.
chromatic9
Member
Why wouldn't her diagnosis come under checks?
Also what's stopping her going to another gun store if denied due to the mums plea? Nothing.
Also what's stopping her going to another gun store if denied due to the mums plea? Nothing.
Ninja Scooter
Member
The system is broken beyond putting any sort of individual culpability on this one gun store owner.
Lumination
'enry 'ollins
That's a good point. You're absolutely right about that. I might be trying to treat the gun store too much like a regular store.
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