vinnygambini
Why are strippers at the U.N. bad when they're great at strip clubs???
This is going nowhere.
What does "fault" have to do with anything? I'm not attacking Kojima on his spending.That's up to them and their (terrible) own decision after the fact. Kojima Productions isn't at fault for creating a multi-platform engine intended for wide use within the company if said company then decides to mothball everything after the fact. If it is a part of that budget, it only matters on paper relative to the return on investment.
One of the defining characteristics of Metal gear has been an extremely loyal fan base. There was almost a 4 year gap between Snake Eater and 4. 4 Outsold Snake Eater. Saying we don't know is very pessimistic given the history of the series.
That's very generous.
why? don't you want people to buy your games?
did you just make some flash games on Newgrounds and decide to take the title of games developer?
well you keep saying Metal Gear games aren't worth the actual budgets, so what high profile games do you think ARE worthy of their budgets?
lol wat?
comparing the budget to mgs4
are people hear really forgetting its being released on 5 consoles compared to 1 for mgs4.....
Just some random numbers off the top of my head.lol wat?
comparing the budget to mgs4
are people hear really forgetting its being released on 5 consoles compared to 1 for mgs4.....
What does "fault" have to do with anything? I'm not attacking Kojima on his spending.
...And 2 sold better than 3 and 4. When you add 7 years to the mix, things can get dicey. It adds to the risk.
lol wat?
comparing the budget to mgs4
are people hear really forgetting its being released on 5 consoles compared to 1 for mgs4.....
Well over 12m actually.Just some random numbers off the top of my head.
Borderlands 2 shipped 9MM copies.
Watch_Dogs shipped 9MM copies.
Far Cry 3 shipped north of 10M copies.
Assassin's Creed games regularly do higher numbers than those.
Oh, Skyrim was 20MM.
As for the second part, I mean it might be relevant if it translated into five times as many sales. But increasing the number of places where people can buy it, doesn't really have that sort of linear relationship.
Just some random numbers off the top of my head.
Borderlands 2 shipped 9MM copies.
Watch_Dogs shipped 9MM copies.
Far Cry 3 shipped north of 10M copies.
Assassin's Creed games regularly do higher numbers than those.
Oh, Skyrim was 20MM.
As for the second part, I mean it might be relevant if it translated into five times as many sales. But increasing the number of places where people can buy it, doesn't really have that sort of linear relationship.
mgs4 budget included the marketing costs. mgs5 is still in development, the online multi will continue to be development post launch so those costs will continue to accrue, and doesn't include the majority of the marketing costs since they have yet to occur. they aren't comparable yet
The Assassin's Creed games, for example (at least until recently).
So clearly I'm not at all talking about quality.
I think some of you folks are going to be in for a rude ass awakening when MGS5 ships and it does not sell as many units as you think. By the way that $80 million figure is up to April if I am not mistaken. So the development expense might be north of $80 million by now.
I think it's entirely plausible it sells more given it's presence on both major core systems and the PC. Or it could sell similar amounts more quickly, which would still be of benefit.Of course not, but it will sell millions more over its lifetime by being able to reach out to people who own one platform but not the other. You post almost comes across as an argument against multiplatform development when we've seen the entire industry moving in that direction (or having had arrived at that some time ago) because of costs.
You said 'well it's a a waste of money if they aren't going to use it now' which has nothing to do with anything. I pointed out that even if that's true, it's not especially relevant except to the end result of the balance sheet.
2 came off the back of 1 and the insane PS2 hype. Of course the time frame adds risk, unacceptable risk in this case? Not really.
I don't really think there's any particular evidence of the brand strength to draw from to indicate growth or decay.
As long as you keep it in perspective that MGS4 only sold 774,600 in its launch month in North America but went on to sell 6 million copies WW
...we're not talking about the end result on the balance sheet. We're talking about how much money Konami put into this whole project, how much they might get out of it, and if those numbers are something Konami execs and shareholders should be happy about.
Who are you to so definitively judge what is acceptable risk for someone else?
Just some random numbers off the top of my head.
Borderlands 2 shipped 9MM copies.
Watch_Dogs shipped 9MM copies.
Far Cry 3 shipped north of 10M copies.
Assassin's Creed games regularly do higher numbers than those.
Oh, Skyrim was 20MM.
As for the second part, I mean it might be relevant if it translated into five times as many sales. But increasing the number of places where people can buy it, doesn't really have that sort of linear relationship.
i say its done by now.. its 27 days from release... never knew that about mgs online... i doubt Konami will even keep the servers up as long as mgs4 online sadly .... marketing costs... seems like it wont be that much.... dont they usually start that stuff already....?mgs4 budget included the marketing costs. mgs5 is still in development, the online multi will continue to be development post launch so those costs will continue to accrue, and doesn't include the majority of the marketing costs since they have yet to occur. they aren't comparable yet
Which has nothing to do with anything bud. MGS4 still made a lot of profit.
You do realize those are basically one in the same right.
I've already addressed this particular line of reasoning, I guess you missed it. If you scroll up I already talked about Konami's decision to exit the dedicated software biz.
It's subjectively less of a risk than you think it is. Again I'll make an account bet with you that MGSV sells over 5 million copies worldwide if you're so confident in the detrimental risk of the sales of MGSV being able to recoup the investment.
...did you edit my post when you quoted it? Because that's not what I said.
I assumed it was a typo because anything else implied a massive failure on your part to understand my post. Since I said 'except to the end result of the balance sheet'. Obviously that result plays into if it was a worthwhile investment overall for the company.
Yeah, don't do that. It's bad form.
I meant exactly what I said. The end result for Konami's balance sheet is the only thing that matters for this conversation. I'm not talking about anything else.
In comparison to what theyll make back? Yep.
Then you might want to stop saying things like 'at a significantly reduced revenue per copy...' (just like every other game ever) and 'Which is largely irrelevant if Konami isn't using that engine in other games' when we're talking strictly about the balance sheet eh? You very clearly have a particular slant in how you are approaching this.
if they sell 5m copies, they'll probably make $167m back from each game sold. subtract the cost of development and that's $87m.
What are you talking about!?
Selling 6 million copies over a long period of time means you can't do a (for example) basic $30 x 6,000,000 to determine the revenue Konami earned off the game. So, yes, it matters to this conversation.
And if Konami had an engine to use in other games they were planning to make as a result of the MGS5 investment, that DOES affect the balance sheet, because it's an upfront cost that can be used to reduce future expenditures.
No they won't make close to that off of 5 million sales.
To people acting like 6 million in sales is a huge number that proves KojiPro was worth it, BioShock Infinite had sold somewhere around that amount when Irrational got shut down, which was probably because 2K didn't trust Ken Levine to be able to bring in a big budget game on time and on budget. Sound familiar?
Obviously.
Lethe said:Then you might want to stop saying things like 'at a significantly reduced revenue per copy...' (just like every other game ever) and 'Which is largely irrelevant if Konami isn't using that engine in other games' when we're talking strictly about the balance sheet eh?
Which as I said only matters relative to the balance sheet not if they are them still going to use the engine or not. Obviously the cost can be justified better if they are going to use the engine (well I assume they will continue pro evo, and they said they are making a new MGS team at least), but that does nothing to change the nature of the 80 million investment being 'too much' on the basis of being able to be recouped. 80 Million is not out of line with other games that sell similar numbers, and again, holy crap, we do not know if it includes the already 'bought' marketing plan, Fox Engine Development, and it is also cushioned somewhat by sales of Ground Zeroes.
Marketing is surely not accounted for as a healthy sum is provided by console manufacturers too during the game's launch.
By April, it would be weird that the company didn't have a projected marketing budget already in place. 27 days out it would be insane if the space hadn't already been pretty much bought for the bigger elements.
Not in every case. Though with a title like MGS maybe Sony. They still would have had such agreements finalized prior to launch and the game has already been delayed.
Oh they absolutely do, but that does not mean it's included in this number. I don't know the answer to that...but if $80 million includes marketing, than they really aren't planning on advertising this thing.
MGS4 shipped/sold to retailers 3 million copies worldwide in its first month. A sigificant portion of that came from Japan where you can't return unsold orders. It Sold through 1 million in Europe in the first month. While you're right, you're over estimating price decay. Games these days are increasingly front loaded. To reach 6 million the company would have been accepting requests for more copies to be made for areas that sold out.
That's up to them and their (terrible) own decision after the fact. Kojima Productions isn't at fault for creating a multi-platform engine intended for wide use within the company if said company then decides to mothball everything after the fact. If it is a part of that budget, it only matters on paper relative to the return on investment.
Just zeroing in on this point. Kojima Productions was a part of Konami. It wasn't and should not have been an independent entity acting on its own strategic interests. If Konami didn't have the interest in using Fox Engine, even if it was just out of genuine disinterest, then why should Kojima Productions be spending Konami's money on it?
I can see that happening given everything. They might look at MGS as an established and visible brand and just want it out the door.
And if they do that(they won't) the game will never reach that 6 million number for sure and it will be a lost project.
I agree that development has mostly been completed, marketing costs could go into the tens of millions but from konami's actions thus far and the lack of marketing seen up to this point I think they're trying to send mgs5 as fast as possible and with little fanfare as possible to pursue things they deem to be more fruitful (gambling, mobile, etc.)i say its done by now.. its 27 days from release... never knew that about mgs online... i doubt Konami will even keep the servers up as long as mgs4 online sadly .... marketing costs... seems like it wont be that much.... dont they usually start that stuff already....?
As long as you keep it in perspective that MGS4 only sold 774,600 in its launch month in North America but went on to sell 6 million copies WW because witha post like that I get the feeling that almost any number would result in a 'hahah told you so' post.
MGS4 shipped/sold to retailers 3 million copies worldwide in its first month. A sigificant portion of that came from Japan where you can't return unsold orders. It Sold through 1 million in Europe in the first month. While you're right, you're over estimating price decay. Games these days are increasingly front loaded. To reach 6 million the company would have been accepting requests for more copies to be made for areas that sold out.
My biggest takeaway isn't the insane budget for MGSV, it's the utterly, insanely toxic culture at Konami. It makes me sick just reading about it.
If anything I'm glad Kojima was pissing away their money.