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[ThreePiMatt]

Printing out a t-shirt to antagonize rape victims is a "sarcastic response"?

Yes, because that's why they made the t-shirt. To give a middle finger to rape victims. That's clearly the reason they did it.

 

[Purple_Tentacle]

Given their massive influence I wish they were better stewards of gaming culture.

 

[David H Wong]

To this day I still don't really know what happened with any clarity. Any place I can get an overview?

They made a comic mocking people who fail to sympathize with rape victims. Because it had the word "rape" in the comic, ultra hard core feminists lied and said they were supporting rape, then other people jumped on because they hate PA.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Probably they thought it was the only way it would show a change of mind, thus avoiding the issue from escalating to a point of no return (even if they constantly fail to see that by keeping their mouth shut or reading what they are going to post as a reply 10 times through they'd most likely avoid any issue to escalate).

But they really do not learn from past mistakes. This is the only one that bothers me, because it was unwarranted issue from my point of view. Yes, the response was silly and inadequate, but it shouldn't have reached the point where they have to make an explanation for it.

I think this kind of touches on something that I think is important to realize: a nuanced approach almost always works for better public discourse. I understand that sometimes it can seem like political correctness knows no bounds as people show no hesitation to respond with outrage to everything. But so too can it be true that some people are way too quick to prefer stubbornness and an unwillingness to admit any fault in lieu of trying to stop one moment and err on the side of being a compassionate human being instead of a straight-shooting know-it-all.

I can understand disagreeing with the initial critiques. But that doesn't mean that PA ultimately ended up completely in the right, or that political correctness has been delivered a blow it'll never recover from. Honestly, it would be nice if people on both sides of the divide continued to learn from these battles (for lack of a better word).

 

[Pie and Beans]

Yes, because that's why they made the t-shirt. To give a middle finger to rape victims. That's clearly the reason they did it.

This is the problem really. The internet, while a wonderful thing, suddenly unites people with such a broad spectrum of personalised analysis shortcuts that it gets a bit hard to even assume you're conversing from someone in the same reality and that the internet isnt actually based on wormhole tech.

Why make a dickwolf shirt? Well I actually find "a wolf whose every limb is an erect phallus" as one of the most comical sentences I have ever read, so I'd be pretty proud of that absurd character. Team Dickwolf isn't about telling rape survivors that they are dumb like dumb people are, its seemingly more about telling the internet outrage machine where to shove it. Childish, but then it gets twisted further into malevolent rape culture supporting and its hard to waste the energy playing the nicey nice adult other-cheek/higher road rigmarole with such subsets and not just use them as lampoon fuel much like any comedian would with hecklers in the audience.

 

[ThreePiMatt]

I think this kind of touches on something that I think is important to realize: a nuanced approach almost always naked for better public discourse. I understand that sometimes it can seem like political correctness knows no bounds as people show no hesitation to respond with outrage to everything. But so too can it be true that some people are way too quick to prefer stubbornness and an unwillingness to admit any fault in lieu of trying to stop one moment and err on the side of being a compassionate human being instead of a straight-shooting know-it-all.

I can understand disagreeing with the initial critiques. But that doesn't mean that PA ultimately ended up completely in the right, or that political correctness has been delivered a blow it'll never recover from. Honestly, it would be nice if people on both sides of the divide continued to learn from these battles (for lack of a better word).

You do realize this is the internet, right? Ain't no moderators on Twitter.

 

[Ikael]

Printing out a t-shirt to antagonize rape victims is a "sarcastic response"?

Reddit feminist activists are not actual rape victims, no matter how much empathy towards them they claim in order to plant their flag firmly in the morally superior ground. There are opinions that ought to be antagonized and mocked, not vindicated. Implying that dickwolves are somehow promoting rape-culture is on the same level of stupid as, say, creationism. Even if that is not exactly a nuanced discourse: we are talking about Twitter and t-shirts, for crap's shake.

 

[Purple_Tentacle]

They made a comic mocking people who fail to sympathize with rape victims. Because it had the word "rape" in the comic, ultra hard core feminists lied and said they were supporting rape, then other people jumped on because they hate PA.

what a biased summary.

 

[David H Wong]

Why they should apologize if they felt they did nothing wrong or going against their own work?

They clearly didn't reacted properly to the criticism and clearly they should have let it go after the first comic response. But I don't see why they should apologize just because some people think they did something wrong when they don't feel that way...

They are comedians and they reacted by making jokes. They had nothing to apologize for, so they used the ridiculous controversy drummed up by extremely disingenuous people as a source of more comedy. Their response was absolute perfection, and the more it riles up the critics, the better.

 

[FStop7]

Look, Penny Arcade has a problem.

[snip]

You already have "AAA Ether" as your tag. Are you looking to go for AAAA Ether? Very well written.

They made a comic mocking people who fail to sympathize with rape victims. Because it had the word "rape" in the comic, ultra hard core feminists lied and said they were supporting rape, then other people jumped on because they hate PA.

And here we have the complete opposite.

 

[FoneBone]

Because it had the word "rape" in the comic, ultra hard core feminists lied

What a pile of disingenuous horseshit.

 

[ThreePiMatt]

The summary will always be biased based on who you ask.

 

[Steaks]

Look, Penny Arcade has a problem. On the one hand, they want the freedom to write absolutely anything they want in their comics without being criticized for it and anyone who doesn't like the comic can fuck right off. On the other, they want PAX to be a welcoming and inclusive place especially for sub-groups that have previously not been well-represented in the gaming community such as women, hence the banning of booth babes, and they don't want anyone to feel threatened there or made to feel uncomfortable.

There isn't inherently wrong with either of these goals. On a general level, I think most people would support both. And if they were capable of separating PA the comic from PAX the convention entirely, this probably wouldn't have been as big a deal. But unfortunately, there is overlap between them, and Mike chose to respond to a controversy in one of them with his mindset from the other (probably because he doesn't really have any other way of thinking). The comic received criticism on a handful of feminist blogs but no more. That was it. But rather than attempt to engage them honestly or even just ignore them (everyone saying feminists should simply not read Penny Arcade if they're offended by it is displaying a staggering lack of self-awareness), he chose to antagonize and mock them and his fanbase took up the cause. If you're going to respond the way Mike did to some bloggers criticizing your work, you don't get to tell anyone else to grow a thicker skin.

But even that wasn't enough, he had to make the shirt and then sell it, and then encourage people to wear it to PAX and brag about him wearing his own. Let's be clear about what this signified: It was a blatant "fuck you" to all of the women and actual sexual assault victims who had expressed feelings of discomfort about rape-related humor. No, it was not a banner of free speech or brave and noble weapon to wield against the scourge of censorship; if you have been told explicitly and in no uncertain terms by a group of people that "This joke makes me uncomfortable and here is why" and you proceed to make a shirt embodying exactly that joke then there are only two possible conclusions: 1) You have the short-term memory of a goldfish, or 2) You are deliberately intending to make those people uncomfortable. You have found their weak point and you intend to exploit it. You cannot claim ignorance or naivete as an excuse; you have been informed of how these people feel and you are using that knowledge to your advantage.

And hey, PAX is their convention. They have the right to do that. They have the right to flagrantly disregard the comments of actual women who expressed concern about how it would make them feel to go to the convention surrounded by people literally wearing rape joke T-shirts. They have the right to say that the convention will be just like the comic, a free-for-all for rape-related humor and anyone who doesn't like it can fuck right off, just like they should with the comic. They absolutely have every right to run PAX with the same mindset that they write their comic.

But then they don't get to claim that PAX is inclusive and everyone is welcome. They don't get to say that they want to make sure women are not made to feel uncomfortable the same way they often are at other conventions. They don't get to say that they care about PAX being better than other conventions about this. The dirty little secret that they never realized is that free speech and making people feel welcome are both perfectly noble ideals that are in conflict with one another and if you choose to side with the former in every possible circumstance, even if it means antagonizing rape victims, even if it means alienating women, even if it means going against your own stated goals, then you're not a martyr for free speech. You're just an asshole.

These are good quality words, and if you glanced over it because it had a lot of words in it I recommend you read those words, then process those words in your brain before thinking of new words to type into the word box since these words will improve the words that you word out; this sentence is really wordy, word.

 

[AzureSkies]

Seems to me that it's an MMO joke that was completely blown out of proportion due to the use of term rape. Not that I'm agreeing with it.

and that tumblr's just painful to read how much detail they're looking into. I don't agree with what Mike did but they're not exactly in the right either.

 

[Lime]

I don't give shit for your excuses Lime, or for your presumptions about my nature. I don't make it my habit to try and second guess people or natures as a rule, I simply look at what's been written and assess the weight of the words accordingly as to whether I agree or disagree with what's been written. In this particular instance I don't find the arguments for, that compelling in truth based off a mix of real life experience, maturity and sense of a broader perceptive.

All I'm reading here is not an adressal of any argument or how the behaviour of PA is in any way defensible. All I have been saying is that it should be pretty easy to see how PA has been acting like assholes with the way they've reacted to any criticism. It should be pretty straight forward to recognize it.

Even at that, I don't see how your vaguely described "mix of real life experience, maturity and sense of a broader perceptive" somehow makes the big "fuck you" and harrassment by PA through Dickwolves merchandise in any way defensible. Just read Faceless' recap and tell me that you are able to understand why people are offended or hurt.

So yes I would like that apology, and I'd also like you to refrain from implying that I'm some kind of psychopath simply because I'm not sold on your increasingly earnest shtick. It gets quite wearing.

Apology for what? Please let me know in what ways I've offended you.

 

[Kadayi]

This is the problem really. The internet, while a wonderful thing, suddenly unites people with such a broad spectrum of personalised analysis shortcuts that it gets a bit hard to even assume you're conversing from someone in the same reality and that the internet isn't actually based on wormhole tech.

Outstanding summary. Saved to desktop for posterity.

Why make a dickwolf shirt? Well I actually find "a wolf whose every limb is an erect phallus" as one of the most comical sentences I have ever read, so I'd be pretty proud of that absurd character. Team Dickwolf isn't about telling rape survivors that they are dumb like dumb people are, its seemingly more about telling the internet outrage machine where to shove it. Childish, but then it gets twisted further into malevolent rape culture supporting and its hard to waste the energy playing the nicey nice adult other-cheek/higher road rigmarole with such subsets and not just use them as lampoon fuel much like any comedian would with hecklers in the audience.

Their mistake was to think that the outrage would end. In a sub-culture where there are people who still haven't forgiven Pete Molyneux for overpromising on Fable countless years later, you'd think they'd be a bit more aware of this fact that there is no end to the axe grinding.

All I'm reading here is not an addressal of any argument or how the behaviour of PA is in any way defensible. All I have been saying is that it should be pretty easy to see how PA has been acting like assholes with the way they've reacted to any criticism. It should be pretty straight forward to recognize it.

The first parts not. It's addressing your accusatory tone.

Even at that, I don't see how your vaguely described "mix of real life experience, maturity and sense of a broader perceptive" somehow makes the big "fuck you" and harrassment by PA through Dickwolves merchandise in any way defensible.

Because I just find your whole 'promoting rape culture' exhortations wanting, just like a few others in this thread already. Could the PA guys of handled things better? Sure. Should they of made the Dickwolves shirt? Probably not. Were they in fact advocating/promoting rape? I'm not buying that line I'm afraid.

Apology for what? Please let me know in what ways I've offended you.

Please...you constantly try and colour anyone and everyone who doesn't actively share your largely hysterical perspectives all the time: -

Or are you that incapable of putting yourself in other human beings' position?

PA are not in any way defensible by anyone with a modicum of empathy.

So if I don't agree with you I'm some unthinking psychopath? So much for compelling arguments Lime.

 

[rdrr gnr]

Never knew there was a second comic. Both the original and response are quite funny. Their response is rather appropriate and fitting of the initial criticism.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

You do realize this is the internet, right? Ain't no moderators on Twitter.

I'm not sure what your point is. Also, I noticed an odd autocorrect issue in my post while reading your's. "Naked" should be "works," as the former makes no sense.

 

[Punchy4486]

The summary will always be biased based on who you ask.

Meh.

Three years ago, Penny Arcade made a comic about the artificiality of MMO side quests. The vehicle of the joke included a reference to rape. Some people accused them of mocking rape victims, others tried to make them aware that random references to rape can cause triggers and flashbacks in rape victims and that a discussion that includes rape without vilifying it subtley normalizes that behavior in society over a long span of time. Penny Arcade defenders ignored the latter complaint and focused on the former as it was an easier target.

Mike Krahulik, someone who constantly talks about his history of being bullied and his hatred of bullies, proceeding to publically antagonize, disregard, and belittle any and all complaints. His detractors further vilified him and asked for an apology. Mike then did what he has done a number of times in the past, and used his repressed bullied rage to become the very thing he despises and bullied the people with complaints, creating a shirt specifically to antagonize and insult them, inadvertently inspiring his fans to do the same.

This led to what some believe would be a hostile environment for women at PAX, because yes, jokes about race and sex and rape can eventually go too far and filter into reality (see how Dave Chappelle thinks many of his young white fans are using his racial humor in the wrong way and enabling their own racism). People called for a ban of PAX and Mike gave a half-hearted apology and stopped printing the shirts. A tenuous agreement was formed, injured by Mike getting over-defensive in a startlingly similar exchange with the Transexual community earlier this year, before he reopened the argument in a Q&A at this year's PAX, basically saying he was right all along. Outrage ensues.

That's pretty comprehensive and fairly unbiased I think.

 

[Jintor]

Meh.

Three years ago, Penny Arcade made a comic about the artificiality of MMO side quests. The vehicle of the joke included a reference to rape. Some people accused them of mocking rape victims, others tried to make them aware that random references to rape can cause triggers and flashbacks in rape victims and that a discussion that includes rape without vilifying it subtley normalizes that behavior in society over a long span of time. Penny Arcade defenders ignored the latter complaint and focused on the former as it was an easier target.

Mike Krahulik, someone who constantly talks about his history of being bullied and his hatred of bullies, proceeding to publically antagonize, disregard, and belittle any and all complaints. His detractors further vilified him and asked for an apology. Mike then did what he has done a number of times in the past, and used his repressed bullied rage to become the very thing he despises and bullied the people with complaints, creating a shirt specifically to antagonize and insult them, inadvertently inspiring his fans to do the same.

This led to what some believe would be a hostile environment for women at PAX, because yes, jokes about race and sex and rape can eventually go too far and filter into reality (see how Dave Chappelle thinks many of his young white fans are using his racial humor in the wrong way and enabling their own racism). People called for a ban of PAX and Mike gave a half-hearted apology and stopped printing the shirts. A tenuous agreement was formed, injured by Mike getting over-defensive in a startlingly similar exchange with the Transexual community earlier this year, before he reopened the argument in a Q&A at this year's PAX, basically saying he was right all along. Outrage ensues.

That's pretty comprehensive and fairly unbiased I think.

Mostly. Ascribing emotions and motivations to Mike is about the most bias in this, and that's not that much and some of it seems fairly ascribable from his comments and actions. I would, like purple-tentacle, remove the stuff about 'repressed bullied rage'

On censorship, I think it's interesting the only discussion thus far about Dickwolves on the Penny-Arcade boards that I've seen has been in the giantbomb SE++ thread.

I also wanted to make the point that if them pulling the product is 'cultural censorship' or whatever mollified form some people are talking about, I wonder what it must feel like to be a woman and want to write about this for a website but to not want to be exposed to the hurling, heaving sea of bigoted bullshit that will inevitably sprout fungus-like from the comments.

 

[Purple_Tentacle]

Meh.

Three years ago, Penny Arcade made a comic about the artificiality of MMO side quests. The vehicle of the joke included a reference to rape. Some people accused them of mocking rape victims, others tried to make them aware that random references to rape can cause triggers and flashbacks in rape victims and that a discussion that includes rape without vilifying it subtley normalizes that behavior in society over a long span of time. Penny Arcade defenders ignored the latter complaint and focused on the former as it was an easier target.

Mike Krahulik, someone who constantly talks about his history of being bullied and his hatred of bullies, proceeding to publically antagonize, disregard, and belittle any and all complaints. His detractors further vilified him and asked for an apology. Mike then did what he has done a number of times in the past, and used his repressed bullied rage to become the very thing he despises and bullied the people with complaints, creating a shirt specifically to antagonize and insult them, inadvertently inspiring his fans to do the same.

This led to what some believe would be a hostile environment for women at PAX, because yes, jokes about race and sex and rape can eventually go too far and filter into reality (see how Dave Chappelle thinks many of his young white fans are using his racial humor in the wrong way and enabling their own racism). People called for a ban of PAX and Mike gave a half-hearted apology and stopped printing the shirts. A tenuous agreement was formed, injured by Mike getting over-defensive in a startlingly similar exchange with the Transexual community earlier this year, before he reopened the argument in a Q&A at this year's PAX, basically saying he was right all along. Outrage ensues.

That's pretty comprehensive and fairly unbiased I think.

Much better than the previous summary. Middle paragraph could use some work.

Mike Krahulik, someone who constantly talks about his history of being bullied and his hatred of bullies, publicly antagonized and belittled complaints. His detractors further vilified him and asked for an apology. Mike then, via the Penny Arcade store, sold a shirt celebrating the "dickwolves" concept.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

I'm really curious how Jerry is taking all of this, but he's understandably not touching it with a 20 foot pole.

 

[aeolist]

Much better than the previous summary. Middle paragraph could use some work.

Mike Krahulik, someone who constantly talks about his history of being bullied and his hatred of bullies, publicly antagonized and belittled complaints. His detractors further vilified him and asked for an apology. Mike then, via the Penny Arcade store, sold a shirt celebrating the "dickwolves" concept.

i would say that his position of power and his ability to do things like create deliberately provocative t-shirts that thousands of people will buy and then making posts on his incredibly popular twitter account encouraging those people to wear those shirts to his equally popular convention are ample reasons to qualify him as a bully

 

[Sojgat]

Penny Arcade doubling down on the joke and lampooning the offended is really just a more visually absurd and uncouth version of the always lovely Mr Fry's viewpoint:

The whole "enabling rape culture" furore that exploded afterwards was just that dark part of the internet that is in an eternal cyclone of furious outrage. By taking the merch down, they gave that cyclone more perceived power that it can continue to wage war on all "offenses", and that is in no doubt what Gabe regrets.

This is the problem really. The internet, while a wonderful thing, suddenly unites people with such a broad spectrum of personalised analysis shortcuts that it gets a bit hard to even assume you're conversing from someone in the same reality and that the internet isnt actually based on wormhole tech.

Why make a dickwolf shirt? Well I actually find "a wolf whose every limb is an erect phallus" as one of the most comical sentences I have ever read, so I'd be pretty proud of that absurd character. Team Dickwolf isn't about telling rape survivors that they are dumb like dumb people are, its seemingly more about telling the internet outrage machine where to shove it. Childish, but then it gets twisted further into malevolent rape culture supporting and its hard to waste the energy playing the nicey nice adult other-cheek/higher road rigmarole with such subsets and not just use them as lampoon fuel much like any comedian would with hecklers in the audience.

Far out... first off, the quote from Fry is in reference to The Incitement to Religious Hatred Bill. It's from an interview where he recounted his experience discovering that his great-grandfather's grave had been disinterred by anti-semitic looters. He's talking about the kind of outrage those looters felt towards the Jews. Their offense doesn't make them correct or give them any kind of right to do what they did. You see?

The second comic very much deserved to be criticised, because it's not even a joke, it's a misrepresentation of what Mike and Jerry were being criticised for, exaggerated to the point of total distortion. They make a strawman argument instead of simply saying that they weren't trying to offend anyone, and twist the focus to imply that they're the one's who are/should be offended. "Well, so fucking what" to them.

Everything escalates from that point because Mike won't act like an adult and just let things lie. They became the ones stomping around like nazis in full Dickwolves regalia trying to intimidate anyone speaking out against their "rights" and point of view. Being mature takes a lot less energy than riling up an army of fanboy idiots, who just go on to make the situation worse. Even now it's obvious he still can't let it go.

Also, Gabe is a cartoon character.

 

[Etnos]

I'm not that familiar with Penny Arcade, I just don't find their comics any fun/funny.. PAX seems to be a pretty good event thou.

Said so... that Krahulic seems like an obnoxious personality, he is neither funny or welcoming, he just seems like a ungracious dick.

I hate to make this kind of comparisons, but lets say Ryan Davis who used to be sardonic, strong worded and a not politically correct at all.. yet He never came as dick unlike Krahulic.

 

[Lime]

.I also wanted to make the point that if them pulling the product is 'cultural censorship' or whatever mollified form some people are talking about, I wonder what it must feel like to be a woman and want to write about this for a website but to not want to be exposed to the hurling, heaving sea of bigoted bullshit that will inevitably sprout fungus-like from the comments.

Or having the woman's website taken down because of DDOS attacks.

Or having a game revolving around beating up the woman.

Or having the woman's private life being dug up and exposed.

Or having the woman receiving death and rape threats.

Or having the woman's youtube video being taken down by Youtube because of massive amount of user reports.

Or having the woman being met with irrational hostility, mass amount of opposition, and a reproduction of ingrained sexist notions about both male and female gender roles.

Gaming culture in general sure seems to be a very inclusive and welcoming cultural activity.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

Gaming culture in general sure seems to be a very inclusive and welcoming cultural activity.

It is, and it's amazing, if you step off the internet and actually attend these conventions. They're unbelievable and the people are glorious.

 

[Punchy4486]

I'm not that familiar with Penny Arcade, I just don't find their comics any fun/funny.. PAX seems to be a pretty good event thou.

Said so... that Krahulic seems like an obnoxious personality, he is neither funny or welcoming, he just seems like a ungracious dick.

I hate to make this kind of comparisons, but lets say Ryan Davis who used to be sardonic, strong worded and a not politically correct at all.. yet He never came as dick unlike Krahulic.

Ryan was also quick to recognize his faults and when he went too far. If he felt like he genuinely hurt someone, he immediately recanted.

This is the guy who went on his site's forums to repudiate anyone defending him for saying "faggot" live on air and apologizing profusely for using the phrase.

That's how you act like an asshole with class.

 

[Night_Trekker]

But even that wasn't enough, he had to make the shirt and then sell it, and then encourage people to wear it to PAX and brag about him wearing his own. Let's be clear about what this signified: It was a blatant "fuck you" to all of the women and actual sexual assault victims who had expressed feelings of discomfort about rape-related humor. No, it was not a banner of free speech or brave and noble weapon to wield against the scourge of censorship; if you have been told explicitly and in no uncertain terms by a group of people that "This joke makes me uncomfortable and here is why" and you proceed to make a shirt embodying exactly that joke then there are only two possible conclusions: 1) You have the short-term memory of a goldfish, or 2) You are deliberately intending to make those people uncomfortable. You have found their weak point and you intend to exploit it. You cannot claim ignorance or naivete as an excuse; you have been informed of how these people feel and you are using that knowledge to your advantage.

There is also a third possibility: 3) You are chiefly concerned with making it crystal clear that you will express yourself no matter who it offends. Even if you know for a fact it will offend certain, specific people.

You can make the high minded claim that PA wasn't doing what they did as a celebration of free speech--that they couldn't have been--but that doesn't make it true. In this third possible scenario, they're simply more concerned with explicitly communicating a defiance of political correctness than they are with the feelings of the people offended by the comic strip.

It's not that it's a good thing to upset people, exactly. It's that it's even worse to validate the opposition stance (which seems to be essentially, "this is a subject that shouldn't be joked about,") on this particular issue. "We're going to joke about it anyway," does not necessarily imply the PA guys relish the discomfort of rape victims. All it necessarily implies is they have a greater concern with not sending a conciliatory message by changing their expression.

You're free to feel any way you like about that, but for the sake of discussion, please don't be disingenuous by painting the PA guys as cartoonishly evil when that is not the only explanation.

This is the problem really. The internet, while a wonderful thing, suddenly unites people with such a broad spectrum of personalised analysis shortcuts that it gets a bit hard to even assume you're conversing from someone in the same reality and that the internet isnt actually based on wormhole tech.

Why make a dickwolf shirt? Well I actually find "a wolf whose every limb is an erect phallus" as one of the most comical sentences I have ever read, so I'd be pretty proud of that absurd character. Team Dickwolf isn't about telling rape survivors that they are dumb like dumb people are, its seemingly more about telling the internet outrage machine where to shove it. Childish, but then it gets twisted further into malevolent rape culture supporting and its hard to waste the energy playing the nicey nice adult other-cheek/higher road rigmarole with such subsets and not just use them as lampoon fuel much like any comedian would with hecklers in the audience.

Exactly. I don't like the way Mike has handled all of this, but I can understand where he might be coming from.

 

[Shambles]

The only thing worse than penny arcade comics are witch hunters looking to attack anyone in order to push their own personal agenda.

 

[Kadayi]

others tried to make them aware that random references to rape can cause triggers and flashbacks in rape victims and that a discussion that includes rape without vilifying it subtley normalizes that behavior in society over a long span of time.

See this for me is a bit of a sticking point, because it is villified in the comic. They're not making light of the act of rape at all. They're leveraging its horrific nature in order to highlight the narrative disconnect of the rescue 6 villagers scenario. I just don't find the latter argument compelling.

 

[brettreyu]

Ryan was also quick to recognize his faults and when he went too far. If he felt like he genuinely hurt someone, he immediately recanted.

This is the guy who went on his site's forums to repudiate anyone defending him for saying "faggot" live on air and apologizing profusely for using the phrase.

That's how you act like an asshole with class.

I never felt like Ryan's humor or "style" if you will, was ever aimed at anyone person or group in particular. If anything he was always capable of separating his dislike for a game or whatever from the people that made it.

Where as in this case, Mike started and never stopped antagonizing the group of people that tried to express their belief or concern over the initial comic.

 

[Team Filler]

From http://www.newstatesman.com/alex-hern/2013/09/penny-arcade-reopens-dickwolves-controversy (I corrected a few spelling errors the guy had in the article, though)


Let's not forget the mess they made from treating Jessica Nigiri the way they did last year. Want to stop misogyny in the gaming community. Getting rid of Krahulik and whoever else keeps being the dickcheeses that make these dumbass decisions and comments at PA would be a great start.

You might want to get yourself a whetstone for that axe your grinding, else it'll dull and become harder to use.

I am completely okay with how Mike has reacted to this controversy, even though it wasn't necessarily the wise reaction. My stance on comedy has always been one of, "Don't like it? Too bad, fuck off somewhere else then. I am under no obligation to not offend you. You expect me to stop in appeasement? Go fuck yourself."

 

[Lime]

It is, and it's amazing, if you step off the internet and actually attend these conventions. They're unbelievable and the people are glorious.

I was mostly talking about how gaming culture must be perceived from the outside in general, because of the aggressively hostile and bigoted behaviour towards anyone who isn't white/heterosexual/male.

But regarding conventions/conferences: they're in general fine in many aspects, but I've heard about, read about, and attended both consumer and industry-oriented events, privately and publicly, and some of the stuff is very toxic and unwelcoming to some people who aren't heterosexual men.

 

[Punchy4486]

There is also a third possibility: 3) In this third possible scenario, they're simply more concerned with explicitly communicating a defiance of political correctness than they are with the feelings of the people offended by the comic strip

I'd argue that leaving the strip up and saying we don't purposefully offend people but we also won't hold back, on any topic, would do that just fine. Profiting off of the comic, creating merchandising, wearing it to a convention with the stated goal of being "all-inclusive, because we're all outcasts", and encouraging your fans to do the same, is an aggressive move. And aggression when it comes to the specific topic of rape just doubles down on the issue, I think.

See this for me is a bit of a sticking point, because it is villified in the comic. They're not making light of the act of rape at all. They're leveraging its horrific nature in order to highlight the narrative disconnect of the rescue 6 villagers scenario. I just don't find the latter argument compelling.

That's a fair point, and I appreciate it. There's still the issue of triggers, but I understand that society can't necessarily pussy-foot around things like that. There were better ways to handle the response for people like that though, on both sides.

 

[Jintor]

See this for me is a bit of a sticking point, because it is villified in the comic. They're not making light of the act of rape at all. They're leveraging its horrific nature in order to highlight the narrative disconnect of the rescue 6 villagers scenario. I just don't find the latter argument compelling.

I don't think it's necessarily present in the original comic, more in their response comic and further responses over time.

 

[luxarific]

Look, Penny Arcade has a problem. On the one hand, they want the freedom to write absolutely anything they want in their comics without being criticized for it and anyone who doesn't like the comic can fuck right off. On the other, they want PAX to be a welcoming and inclusive place especially for sub-groups that have previously not been well-represented in the gaming community such as women, hence the banning of booth babes, and they don't want anyone to feel threatened there or made to feel uncomfortable.

....

But then they don't get to claim that PAX is inclusive and everyone is welcome. They don't get to say that they want to make sure women are not made to feel uncomfortable the same way they often are at other conventions. They don't get to say that they care about PAX being better than other conventions about this. The dirty little secret that they never realized is that free speech and making people feel welcome are both perfectly noble ideals that are in conflict with one another and if you choose to side with the former in every possible circumstance, even if it means antagonizing rape victims, even if it means alienating women, even if it means going against your own stated goals, then you're not a martyr for free speech. You're just an asshole.

One of the best posts I've ever seen on Neogaf. Seriously.

 

[darkpower]

Okay, so let me pose a hypothetical question that I won't give my opinion on right away. I'm just going to ask to see what people think (and I apologize if it sounds like I'm implying something or if it seems inappropriate. I honestly am just wanting to see what people believe).

I've given the 411 about the Jessica Nigiri incident, and then, of course, we have the 2010-2013 Dickwolves controversy. Given the outrage over the Dickwolves controversy and how the Nigiri thing was handled (and you can throw in the trans thing in here, too, if you want), do you think that perhaps there's a hidden misogynistic conspiracy at work here? You think that there's a more sinister reason for their handling the Dickwolf controversy, or Jessica (or even there being a hidden agenda behind their own booth babe rule), given who might be the first to complain?

In other words, are they one of the reasons why we have people like Anita Sarkeesian calling the game community an "unquestioned boys club"?

 

[Muffdraul]

Far out... first off, the quote from Fry is in reference to The Incitement to Religious Hatred Bill. It's from an interview where he recounted his experience discovering that his great-grandfather's grave had been disinterred by anti-semitic looters. He's talking about the kind of outrage those looters felt towards the Jews. Their offense doesn't make them correct or give them any kind of right to do what they did. You see?

This is incorrect. True that the quote originated from an article interview about the bill, and he mentions the desecration of the graves. But the quote itself is about people in general. Not anti-semitic looters or anyone specific.

 

[Fantomex]

Anytime I disagree with a company or corporation I just stop supporting them. However there seems to be a lot of people in this current generation who like to have very strong opinions, followed by baseless actions. I can't say I would believe if someone said "I was offended by the comic, and the current stance, so I stopped visiting the site and refused to attend PAX for that reason". Most people I've seen like to voice very strong opinions and stop there. If you're offended or angry, vote with your wallet.

 

[darkpower]

You might want to get yourself a whetstone for that axe your grinding, else it'll dull and become harder to use.

Just my opinion. You're free to disagree with it (just say why, of course).

 

[Servbot24]

Out of curiosity, would people have had a problem with this if the character had said that he was tortured?

PA's responses to the criticism were pretty stupid though.

 

[Gannd]

What a pile of disingenuous horseshit.

No. It's not horseshit. It's pretty much what happened. And it wasn't people saying "That comic hurt my feelings" it was "YOU THINK RAPE IS A JOKE!!". Rape can be a joke. It can be funny. It's like the old joke: What's the difference between art and pornography? I'll tell you when I see it. I would have been fine with people saying: This hurt my feelings. But, I didn't appreciate people trying to extrapolate this comic into something larger than it actually was/is. Sometimes a joke is just a joke. I'm even okay with people saying that they won't read or participate in PAX because they don't like the product. That's fine. That's how a marketplace works. I don't find PVP funny anymore. I just stopped reading it. I don't think Scott Kurtz is a horrible person because of his comics.

I don't think Gabe or Mike responded well to it. They should have just ignored the feedback because it came from an extreme minority.


I just feel that there is a certain segment of the gaming audience that is looking and trolling for a fight. They want the fight because they have an agenda to push. So they'll never let anything go or be human. It's about the agenda. This is a political movement for them. Some people agree or disagree with the agenda but I think that's what happened. They'll do anything to push it.

EDIT: By "trolling for a fight" I don't mean like internet trolling. I mean they are looking for things they can use to advance their agenda.

 

[Jintor]

Okay, so let me pose a hypothetical question that I won't give my opinion on right away. I'm just going to ask to see what people think (and I apologize if it sounds like I'm implying something or if it seems inappropriate. I honestly am just wanting to see what people believe).

I've given the 411 about the Jessica Nigiri incident, and then, of course, we have the 2010-2013 Dickwolves controversy. Given the outrage over the Dickwolves controversy and how the Nigiri thing was handled (and you can throw in the trans thing in here, too, if you want), do you think that perhaps there's a hidden misogynistic conspiracy at work here? You think that there's a more sinister reason for their handling the Dickwolf controversy, or Jessica (or even there being a hidden agenda behind their own booth babe rule), given who might be the first to complain?

In other words, are they one of the reasons why we have people like Anita Sarkeesian calling the game community an "unquestioned boys club"?

Why do you need a conspiracy?

All you need is a number of individuals or groups who happen to have similarly aligned interests, beliefs, motivations etc. Conspiracy implies a certain sense of organisation. There's no cackling club of shadowy men saying "Today, we shall make women suffer!" but that doesn't mean there isn't, let's say, a prevailing set of norms that have a negative effect on outside parties.

 

[megamerican]

I really don't understand why this is still going on. Oh yeah, probably because it's an easy story for sanctimonious gaming journalists to whip up.

 

[Gannd]

I laugh every time I read that comic because of how absurd it is and it does a great job pointing out how bad the story telling is in MMOs (and all games) compared to the actions of the players. And Dickwolves is a funny word. It is just funny too me.

 

[darkpower]

Why do you need a conspiracy?

All you need is a number of individuals or groups who happen to have similarly aligned interests, beliefs, motivations etc. Conspiracy implies a certain sense of organisation. There's no cackling club of shadowy men saying "Today, we shall make women suffer!" but that doesn't mean there isn't, let's say, a prevailing set of norms that have a negative effect on outside parties.

In other words, a coincidence? Probably. Probably don't need a conspiracy, either, to have that sort of effect, but yeah, there could be that kind of attitude in some of the people who run the Expo.

 

[Jintor]

Mainly though I just think this falls back on Mike.

 

[ThreePiMatt]

Okay, so let me pose a hypothetical question that I won't give my opinion on right away. I'm just going to ask to see what people think (and I apologize if it sounds like I'm implying something or if it seems inappropriate. I honestly am just wanting to see what people believe).

I've given the 411 about the Jessica Nigiri incident, and then, of course, we have the 2010-2013 Dickwolves controversy. Given the outrage over the Dickwolves controversy and how the Nigiri thing was handled (and you can throw in the trans thing in here, too, if you want), do you think that perhaps there's a hidden misogynistic conspiracy at work here? You think that there's a more sinister reason for their handling the Dickwolf controversy, or Jessica (or even there being a hidden agenda behind their own booth babe rule), given who might be the first to complain?

In other words, are they one of the reasons why we have people like Anita Sarkeesian calling the game community an "unquestioned boys club"?

Oh yes. Follow the money. Clearly anything to keep women down is fair game.

Gaming is an "unquestioned boys club" because the people making games now were the people playing games 10, 15, 20 years ago and developed a lifelong passion for it, and they happened to be overwhelmingly male. As more women get interested in playing games they too will aspire to make games and the ratio will begin to balance out. Now whether you think the gaming industry should accelerate that trend and make a conscious effort to make games that appeal to women is a debate that we can have until the cows come home. But seriously, there's no "He-Man Woman Hater's Club" bullshit going on here.

 

[Team Filler]

Just my opinion. You're free to disagree with it (just say why, of course).

Fair enough. I suppose the "why" is that the tone of your opening and subsequent posts seem to be coming at this topic more in search of validation for your preconceived opinion on the matter and less in search of an objective and open discussion.

Not that you are in any way obligated to be objective on the matter, tis your opinion. That's my opinion on the whole thing, anyways.