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[Arkage]

Well I actually find "a wolf whose every limb is an erect phallus" as one of the most comical sentences I have ever read, so I'd be pretty proud of that absurd character.

The absurd character is fine. Raping slaves isn't, whether or not an absurd character is the rapist.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

The absurd character is fine. Raping slaves isn't, whether or not an absurd character is the rapist.

And thus is the point of the comic. It's a ridiculous situation made all the more ridiculous by how game developers treat it.

 

[jetjevons]

In terms of Dominos it's some of the behavior of of the of the founders, Tom Monaghan: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/1...der-tom-monaghan-offer-workers-contraceptive/

I guess he sold his Dominos stake in 1998 though.

With Papa Johns it's the anti Obamacare stuff from last year: http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/n...ther-fast-food-chain-embroiled-in-culture-war

Thank you. Consider me enlightened. I try to keep abreast of douchebag CEO behavior etc. but it's tough these days.

 

[Rafterman]

Watching the roast of James Franco last night, it was nothing but gay/Jew/rape jokes.

I still can't be offended by this. The best thing you can do to comedy that offends you is to not buy it. Don't link to it, don't click on their site, tell your friends to do the same. But I don't want to suddenly see self-censorship from a personal, editorialized comedy source.

This.

Don't like the comedy, don't read the site. Don't support PAX. Everything offends someone, and rape is no more off limits than any other touchy subject as far as comedy goes. The amount of outrage about this guy and his comic/comments is laughable at best and mostly just sad. I especially like how much venom comes from the (self appointed) morally superior in these topics. It seems like some of them feel like being even more reprehensible, as in that tweet, is right way of going about getting their point across which only makes them look worse than than the person they are bitching about.

 

[FreddieQuell]

The absurd character is fine. Raping slaves isn't, whether or not an absurd character is the rapist.

So how did you come to the conclusion that someone thought raping slaves was fine?

 

[FrostuTheNinja]

I always thought the gag was the absurdity of being "raped to sleep".

 

[KiTA]

I always thought the gag was the absurdity of being "raped to sleep".

The gag was that there were these slaves in a horrible situation - exaggerated for comedic effect -- and the PC was completely disconnected, as most are. PVP did a similar punchline about City of Heroes and PCs walking past grey mobs harassing victims.

They could have used any offense to exaggerate the plight of the slave and the comic would have worked.

I'm honestly surprised no one has done a random generator for the comic, replacing the middle panel with other things - being forced to work at EA, being made to watch the VMAs, what have you.

 

[AppleMIX]

This.

Don't like the comedy, don't read the site. Don't support PAX. Everything offends someone, and rape is no more off limits than any other touchy subject as far as comedy goes. The amount of outrage about this guy and his comic/comments is laughable at best and mostly just sad. I especially like how much venom comes from the (self appointed) morally superior in these topics. It seems like some of them feel like being even more reprehensible, as in that tweet, is right way of going about getting their point across which only makes them look worse than than the person they are bitching about.

More or less this.

Vidoegames and videogame culture has been under close scrutiny lately but the problems is that people don't treat it with the same respect as movies/books/music. Hotline Miami 2 came under fire because of a rape scene (all be it a fictional one) and people saw no issue with demanding it be removed from the game.

 

[B-Genius]

If you wanted to make a parody of feminism descending into vapid, holier-than-thou, victimhood seeking posturing I don't think you could even come up with something as outlandish as taking offense at the existence of completely fictional joke creatures with dicks for arms, but here we are.

Here we are indeed. It does seem as though PA have reacted poorly in the past (and bringing it up again wasn't really necessary), but at the end of the day my sentiments lie with the above quote. It's just too ridiculous, and one has to laugh not at games, or horrible imaginary creatures, or disgusting unlawful acts, but at the world.

 

[Weiss]

I still don't get why this specific comic inspired so much outrage. Penny Arcade has had jokes about prostitution, rape, bestiality and pedophilia for years now. They've had comics where Gabe is raped or implicating Tycho as a closet zoophile since its inception.

I mean, it's a joke about what happens to the NPCs that get left behind once you finish the quest, with the signature over the top, gross out style that's been in PA basically since day one.

 

[TheSeks]

In the same sense that including content in the discussion of something is not inherently endorsement of it, then yes. If you can't work out why the comic is critical of game logic which flippantly uses something as awful as rape as a story element, then something has gone over your head.

While I get the controvesy and offended's point: I agree with you. The "raped by the dickwolves" bit wasn't the point of the comic. It was joking about how games have you "save slaves" or other things that may have terrible backstories ("we are raped to sleep by the dickwolves") and once you reach the limit ("save five") you're done. It's a terrible way of making a joke for sure but controversy over it two years later is kinda crazy to me.

I'm honestly surprised no one has done a random generator for the comic, replacing the middle panel with other things - being forced to work at EA, being made to watch the VMAs, what have you.

That actually would be a good way of kinda diffusing the offended's attack on the comic. But Mike and Jerry would just make it worse like they normally do so it would've been better to just have shut up about it and never mentioned it again.

But then I'm not a fan of Penny-Arcade or anything like that so it's just crazy to me as an outsider to both sides of the issue.

 

[Arkage]

And thus is the point of the comic. It's a ridiculous situation made all the more ridiculous by how game developers treat it.

Slave rape, or rape in general, isn't ridiculous or absurd. It's sad and it's horrible and it's daily. Game developers treat it in an unrealistic way as far as how many you can save, but I don't know of a single MMO that mentions rape, let alone jokes about the perpetrator. The rape aspect of the joke had nothing to do with the MMOs they were lampooning, but they decided to add it anyway to add an absurdest humor to it.

TLDR: Rape isn't ridiculous or absurd, and has nothing to do with MMO tropes.

 

[Nairume]

The gag was that there were these slaves in a horrible situation - exaggerated for comedic effect -- and the PC was completely disconnected, as most are. PVP did a similar punchline about City of Heroes and PCs walking past grey mobs harassing victims.

They could have used any offense to exaggerate the plight of the slave and the comic would have worked.

Or they could have just left it at how they were slaves that were brutally beaten every morning.

I mean, slavery itself is something universally accepted as being horrible and unacceptable. Surely they could have just left it at that and the commentary on the genre's considerable ludonarrative dissonance would have been perfectly fine.

In fact, it'd probably be even better because the punchline would have arrived much quicker without the unnecessary portion regarding the dickwolves.

 

[not psycho]

Oglaf is a pornographic comic with tons and tons of rape jokes.

It's also feminist and written by a woman.

PA were huge assholes with their reaction. That's the problem. And they can't explain their later actions away as part of a comic, because those actions occurred in real life.

 

[Angry Puppy]

There is no problem with them making a rape joke.

 

[Quadraphonic]

There is no problem with them making a rape joke.

This thread isn't about that. It's about Gabe's response to make a shirt with a rape joke on it because a few complained. He acted like an asshole in response to criticism.

 

[ShinMaruku]

a large part of comedy is laughing at really messed up things.

Indeed. If comedy can't go into bad things what is the point of comedy?

 

[Valkyr Junkie]

I still don't get why this specific comic inspired so much outrage. Penny Arcade has had jokes about prostitution, rape, bestiality and pedophilia for years now. They've had comics where Gabe is raped or implicating Tycho as a closet zoophile since its inception.

I mean, it's a joke about what happens to the NPCs that get left behind once you finish the quest, with the signature over the top, gross out style that's been in PA basically since day one.

It's everything he did after the comic that generated real outrage.

 

[Manu]

I still don't get why this specific comic inspired so much outrage. Penny Arcade has had jokes about prostitution, rape, bestiality and pedophilia for years now. They've had comics where Gabe is raped or implicating Tycho as a closet zoophile since its inception.

Somebody call PETA.

 

[MickeyKnox]

Oglaf is a pornographic comic with tons and tons of rape jokes.

It's also feminist and written by a woman.

That's because Oglaf is great cartooning.

Comparing the two is not unlike comparing Louis CK and Tim Allen's usage of "the N word"

 

[DocSeuss]

Watched the video to confirm this, but what the fuck? Who is so excited about rape jokes that they cheer wildly over someone else regretting not continuing to sell dickwolves merchandise? I'm a bit out of the loop on this entire story, but this seems quite sad to me.

Edit: Maybe the people cheering aren't so excited about rape jokes but more excited by Krahulik standing up for his beliefs/expressions/work? I guess that could make a little sense, but I'm not sure I have that much faith in humanity. ultron87 has the same idea it seems!

I kinda think the latter. I mean, if someone censored Blazing Saddles or Airplane! and Mel Brooks or Zucker, Abrahams, and Zucker expressed similar sentiment, I'd probably find myself agreeing with the crowd. Censorship is lame.

Judging by what I know of Krahulik, I'm pretty confident it's the latter. But I'm the kind of guy who has a very, very hard time believing that people would react that way to a rape joke. People tend to cheer for other people, not jokes. In this case, a bunch of people got upset at a joke, tried to tell Krahulik he was a bad person, and his response in this situation is basically "hey, you don't get to judge me." I think people are cheering for him within that context.

 

[Arkage]

So how did you come to the conclusion that someone thought raping slaves was fine?

At the point in which the t-shirts were made. Instead of being called TeamDickwolf it should've just been called TeamRapist. But nobody wouldn't worn that shirt, it doesn't sound as silly

 

[Manu]

At the point in which the t-shirts were made. Instead of being called TeamDickwolf it should've just been called TeamRapist. But nobody wouldn't worn that shirt, it doesn't sound as silly

That's quite the leap of logic you made there.

 

[FrostuTheNinja]

The gag was that there were these slaves in a horrible situation - exaggerated for comedic effect -- and the PC was completely disconnected, as most are. PVP did a similar punchline about City of Heroes and PCs walking past grey mobs harassing victims.

They could have used any offense to exaggerate the plight of the slave and the comic would have worked.

I'm honestly surprised no one has done a random generator for the comic, replacing the middle panel with other things - being forced to work at EA, being made to watch the VMAs, what have you.

They play on each other. The fact the the player isn't concerned that the slaves are being "raped to sleep" is part of the joke. Yes, you could say "Work at EA" but the immensity of the situation wouldn't be as dire, the context of the joke would change. The player wouldn't be as selfish.

I'd also suggest that the comic is commentary about game designers using emotionally cheap tactics to mask a poor story, bad characterization, etc. But that would give Penny Arcade way too much credit.

Edit: whoops! Forgot the quote.

 

[Arkage]

That's quite the leap of logic you made there.

Is dickwolf not a rapist? Is not his sole purpose and creation to rape things? Am I missing something?

 

[SolidChamp]

Somebody call PETA.

I don't get it...why is this funny to some people? Is this seriously why they're famous?

Mother of fucking Christ.

 

[Manu]

Is dickwolf not a rapist? Is not his sole purpose and creation to rape things? Am I missing something?

And how is the Dickwolf any worse than Pedobear for example?

I don't think anyone believes Pedobear condones or incites pedophilia.

I don't get it...why is this funny to some people? Is this seriously why they're famous?

Mother of fucking Christ.

You sound unusually upset, both here and on the rest of your post which you deleted.

 

[FrostuTheNinja]

I don't get it...why is this funny to some people? Is this seriously why they're famous?

Mother of fucking Christ.

Yeah, it's like they tell jokes backwards or something. But damn, do they have fans.

 

[sleepykyo]

Why not just kick out the creeps instead of the people wearing outfits? Obviously a line with skimpy dressing has to be drawn somewhere (for any gender), but we shouldn't be punishing skimpy dressers, we should be punishing creeps who make these folks just trying to have fun feel unsafe.

Why not both? I admire her figure/cosplay/whatever as much as the next male, but PAX is a no booth babe event and the staff was receiving various complaints about it according the Kotaku article.

And it is still somewhat unrelated to the current issue of why bother reopening old scars. Regardless of whether he believes he is right or wrong, he already made his concessions in the past and that issue was practically buried.

 

[SolidChamp]

You sound unusually upset, both here and on the rest of your post which you deleted.

LOL I'm actually looking for that post. I swear I didn't delete it myself. I think a mod did.

And yes, these guys pissed me off. I should probably tone it down a bit, but I happen to have a family member who was a victim of rape.

This shit is nothing to joke about.

 

[Cartman86]

More or less this.

Vidoegames and videogame culture has been under close scrutiny lately but the problems is that people don't treat it with the same respect as movies/books/music. Hotline Miami 2 came under fire because of a rape scene (all be it a fictional one) and people saw no issue with demanding it be removed from the game.

Bull fucking shit. If you think video games are the only thing in this world that is under this exact same scrutiny you are not paying attention.

 

[Arkage]

And how is the Dickwolf any worse than Pedobear for example?

I don't think anyone believes Pedobear condones or incites pedophilia.

Pedobear wasn't created and then publically supported by a major, public cultural organization. Pedobear wasn't put on tshirts that the lead members of said cultural organization then wore around.

And if such an organization did exist, you can bet they'd be getting shit tons of criticism for it.

 

[Manu]

LOL I'm actually looking for that post. I swear I didn't delete it myself. I think a mod did.

And yes, these guys pissed me off. I should probably tone it down a bit, but I happen to have a family member who was a victim of rape.

This shit is nothing to joke about.

I'm really sorry to hear that. But see, that's the thing: we all laugh at things that are offensive to someone, somewhere, and most of the times they only stop being funny when they hit close to you. Where do we draw the line?

 

[Kopite]

Good on them for taking a stand I suppose. Idiots making them out out to be misogynists blew this otherwise very funny comic making fun of MMORPG/RPG players out of proportion.

 

[nbthedude]

Look, Penny Arcade has a problem. On the one hand, they want the freedom to write absolutely anything they want in their comics without being criticized for it and anyone who doesn't like the comic can fuck right off. On the other, they want PAX to be a welcoming and inclusive place especially for sub-groups that have previously not been well-represented in the gaming community such as women, hence the banning of booth babes, and they don't want anyone to feel threatened there or made to feel uncomfortable.

There isn't inherently wrong with either of these goals. On a general level, I think most people would support both. And if they were capable of separating PA the comic from PAX the convention entirely, this probably wouldn't have been as big a deal. But unfortunately, there is overlap between them, and Mike chose to respond to a controversy in one of them with his mindset from the other (probably because he doesn't really have any other way of thinking). The comic received criticism on a handful of feminist blogs but no more. That was it. But rather than attempt to engage them honestly or even just ignore them (everyone saying feminists should simply not read Penny Arcade if they're offended by it is displaying a staggering lack of self-awareness), he chose to antagonize and mock them and his fanbase took up the cause. If you're going to respond the way Mike did to some bloggers criticizing your work, you don't get to tell anyone else to grow a thicker skin.

But even that wasn't enough, he had to make the shirt and then sell it, and then encourage people to wear it to PAX and brag about him wearing his own. Let's be clear about what this signified: It was a blatant "fuck you" to all of the women and actual sexual assault victims who had expressed feelings of discomfort about rape-related humor. No, it was not a banner of free speech or brave and noble weapon to wield against the scourge of censorship; if you have been told explicitly and in no uncertain terms by a group of people that "This joke makes me uncomfortable and here is why" and you proceed to make a shirt embodying exactly that joke then there are only two possible conclusions: 1) You have the short-term memory of a goldfish, or 2) You are deliberately intending to make those people uncomfortable. You have found their weak point and you intend to exploit it. You cannot claim ignorance or naivete as an excuse; you have been informed of how these people feel and you are using that knowledge to your advantage.

And hey, PAX is their convention. They have the right to do that. They have the right to flagrantly disregard the comments of actual women who expressed concern about how it would make them feel to go to the convention surrounded by people literally wearing rape joke T-shirts. They have the right to say that the convention will be just like the comic, a free-for-all for rape-related humor and anyone who doesn't like it can fuck right off, just like they should with the comic. They absolutely have every right to run PAX with the same mindset that they write their comic.

But then they don't get to claim that PAX is inclusive and everyone is welcome. They don't get to say that they want to make sure women are not made to feel uncomfortable the same way they often are at other conventions. They don't get to say that they care about PAX being better than other conventions about this. The dirty little secret that they never realized is that free speech and making people feel welcome are both perfectly noble ideals that are in conflict with one another and if you choose to side with the former in every possible circumstance, even if it means antagonizing rape victims, even if it means alienating women, even if it means going against your own stated goals, then you're not a martyr for free speech. You're just an asshole.

People should not ignore this post. This post is excellent.

 

[Nairume]

Good on them for taking a stand I suppose. Idiots making them out out to be misogynists blew this otherwise very funny comic making fun of MMORPG/RPG players out of proportion.

That isn't what happened. A few people stepped forward to say that they didn't like an entirely unnecessary portion to what was, yes, a funny comic. A normal person in Gabe's position would have either just shrugged off or given a potentially insincere apology and left it at that.

Gabe is the one who allowed for this to be blown out of proportion when he reacted like the child that he is and decided to bully and antagonize people.

 

[SolidChamp]

I'm really sorry to hear that. But see, that's the thing: we all laugh at things that are offensive to someone, somewhere, and most of the times they only stop being funny when they hit close to you. Where do we draw the line?

I don't really see us drawing any lines until those people who are in a position to draw attention to these things understand the level of power and responsibility they have in the landscape in which they operate. Media and communications are the most powerful of all tools. The Internet has changed everything in the last 15 years. All it takes is one moron with a soapbox to get a whole room of morons cheering on a rape joke. How does that moron get his soapbox? The Internet.

People like this either really don't understand just how much power they wield, or they are perfectly aware and are too smug and egotistical to care that what they say/do can directly and negatively affect others. In Mike Krahulik's case, I'm guessing it's the latter.

We can't start drawing lines until the people at the forefront of our culture start taking responsibility to help to define those lines for the rest of us...which will never happen.

Rape jokes make for higher traffic. This wonderful world we live in...

 

[polyh3dron]

You know that South Park episode with George Lucas and Steven Spielberg literally raping their artistic creations as an allegory for how they have destroyed them for fans who once loved them? That's a whole lot more graphic than this implied dickwolves thing IMO.

http://youtu.be/84xdLOYQ_jw

 

[AppleMIX]

Bull fucking shit. If you think video games are the only thing in this world that is under this exact same scrutiny you are not paying attention.

Scrutiny and censorship are two different things.

People didn't just voice their disgust, they actually demanded it be removed from the game.

 

[Rafterman]

LOL I'm actually looking for that post. I swear I didn't delete it myself. I think a mod did.

And yes, these guys pissed me off. I should probably tone it down a bit, but I happen to have a family member who was a victim of rape.

This shit is nothing to joke about.

My mother died of cancer, does that mean no one is ever allowed to make cancer jokes ever again, and if they do I should be an asshole about it call them horrible people like so many have done in this instance?

Seriously, if we took everything that ever happened to someone on this planet and made it off limits there would be nothing to joke about.

 

[Monocle]

I don't get it...why is this funny to some people? Is this seriously why they're famous?

Mother of fucking Christ.

I don't know, I find the idea of someone talking about "closing that chapter" in reference to dog fucking is pretty amusing.

 

[Village]

You know that South Park episode with George Lucas and Steven Spielberg literally raping their artistic creations as an allegory for how they have destroyed them for fans who once loved them? That's a whole lot more graphic than this implied dickwolves thing IMO.

http://youtu.be/84xdLOYQ_jw

And for that reason, it is the worst south park episode.

 

[Cagey]

You know that South Park episode with George Lucas and Steven Spielberg literally raping their artistic creations as an allegory for how they have destroyed them for fans who once loved them? That's a whole lot more graphic than this implied dickwolves thing IMO.

http://youtu.be/84xdLOYQ_jw

I prefer the hidden-in-plain-sight examples, like Office Space: "federal pound me in the ass prison." It's a rape joke. A rather obvious rape joke.

 

[SolidChamp]

People should not ignore this post. This post is excellent.

You're absolutely right, that post is the winner of this thread.

I'm tweeting the fuck out of that.

 

[SolidChamp]

My mother died of cancer, does that mean no one is ever allowed to make cancer jokes ever again, and if they do I should be an asshole about it call them horrible people like so many have done in this instance?

Seriously, if we took everything that ever happened to someone on this planet and made it off limits there would be nothing to joke about.

It's not about the joke itself, it's about his asinine and juvenile response to people who were directly affected by that. It's his refusal to accept criticism and open a dialogue on the subject.

He basically had his friends plug his ears for him while he stood their shouting "LA LA LA LA!" with both middle fingers extended.

That's who Mike Krahulik is to me. That's why I'm completely disgusted by their whole fucking movement.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

My mother died of cancer, does that mean no one is ever allowed to make cancer jokes ever again, and if they do I should be an asshole about it call them horrible people like so many have done in this instance?

I certainly hope not. Making fun of cancer patients comprises like half of my material.

Edit: Just in case anyone is wondering, the above is an intentionally bizarre response to a post that just seemed confusing at best and completely off the mark at worst.

 

[Codeblue]

I don't get it...why is this funny to some people? Is this seriously why they're famous?

Mother of fucking Christ.

They're famous for video game comics.

 

[Arkage]

My mother died of cancer, does that mean no one is ever allowed to make cancer jokes ever again, and if they do I should be an asshole about it call them horrible people like so many have done in this instance?

Seriously, if we took everything that ever happened to someone on this planet and made it off limits there would be nothing to joke about.

No, but if you complained about someone making a joke about cancer, I wouldn't say "GROW A THICKER SKIN." And then proceed to make a t-shirt displaying this cancer to sell to people in order to spite you.

 

[Cagey]

It's not about the joke itself, it's about his asinine and juvenile response to people who were directly affected by that. It's his refusal to accept criticism and open a dialogue on the subject.

He basically had his friends plug his ears for him while he stood their shouting "LA LA LA LA!" with both middle fingers extended.

That's who Mike Krahulik is to me. That's why I'm completely disgusted by their whole fucking movement.

Not all criticism is valid, nor does all criticism warrant opening a dialogue because it has been made. I don't find the criticism of the comic to be particularly valid or worthy of a larger discussion. Perhaps he doesn't either. If that is the case, why would he have to accept criticism and open a dialogue on the subject? What does that achieve, other than to legitimize criticism that he may well find illegitimate? By engaging in some sort of intellectually rigorous debate with an absurd critique, it sometimes does the critique a favor. It's not fun to not have your criticism of something acknowledged and accepted as legitimate, but it doesn't mean it's automatically "asshole" behavior. It well could be, but it's not necessarily so.

Thus...is the issue really that he "spiked the football" with the tee shirt?

EDIT: I admit to not knowing the details about the authors and their actions, nor do I know/care about anything surrounding the expo (as cited in that repeatedly quoted post above), I simply read the comic and enjoy it.

 

[Surface of Me]

Not all criticism is valid, nor does all criticism warrant opening a dialogue because it has been made. I don't find the criticism of the comic to be particularly valid or worthy of a larger discussion. Perhaps he doesn't either. If that is the case, why would he have to accept criticism and open a dialogue on the subject? What does that achieve, other than to legitimize criticism that he may well find illegitimate? By engaging in some sort of intellectually rigorous debate with an absurd critique, it sometimes does the critique a favor. It's not fun to not have your criticism of something acknowledged and accepted as legitimate, but it doesn't mean it's automatically "asshole" behavior. It well could be, but it's not necessarily so.

Is the issue really that he "spiked the football" with the tee shirt?

This post put it in better words than I could, I agree.