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[blankslatenator]

What you need to do is read Carl Sagan. After that, you would realize that this is from a critical perspective on how superstitions and rumors rule the lives of the adolescent, and adults as you realize further into the game, mostly because their world view is particularly small and sheltered,mostly because society wants it that way and keeps it that way.
Naturally,just cause its in the media doesn't necessarily mean the creators believe this stuff.
Also LGBT is a fantastic conversation starter these days, an "interesting topic" like what started this thread in the first place. The authors have to pick topics that a wide audience would be interested in, whether it's politically correct or not doesn't really matter, nor should it. It's just fun to explore and thought provoking.
Sorry for the Yusuke answer.

You either have no idea where people are coming from, find offense at where they are coming from, or a little of both.

I just really like girls

The beach scene was a double whammy of transphobia and homophobia.

Actually that is an accurate depiction of what can happen at Waikiki beach,and is a part of their current culture as an urban legend (which is what Persona focuses on).

Widely called mahu – a male who dresses like a female, a transvestite. Some mahus really, really look like women but remember that they are guys with a da kine.

I had a buddy who had an incident with it, where a girl with genuine boob's and a very attractive female face was recommended as a hook up by another girl. We ended up playing a chicken match in the ocean, and my friend almost had a heart attack when the "girl's" penis rubbed on his neck.

It was a pretty funny prank, but socially rude.

LGBT have as much social responsibility as any other sexuality. It's not like one can go around slapping boob's and nut checking.

 

[charlequin]

There is this weird conception among many of Persona fans that the series is above and beyond matters such as "waifus" or pandering. Heck, Persona 5 even has their own dedicated "waifu" thread as if to separate the "main game" and "that other thing", as if "that other thing" is not the "real game" that is totally separate from the game itself, while in reality yea, Persona as it is right now is quite inseparable from all of its "waifus" or pandering elements, no matter how much denial some of its fans have.

Persona 5 has its own waifu thread because people can't behave themselves and we didn't feel as if everyone playing the game should have to wade through giant, content-free derails about who is best girl.

What's wrong with Kanji from Persona 4?

As written his storyline resolves into gay-baiting nonsense because the Japanese cultural distaste for homosexuality forces them to scrupulously avoid actuallly having a plotline about being gay. To make it work you either have to headcanon it to being about him being gay or stretch credulity to actually accept the version of the story they present to you.

(At least it's not as bad as Naoto's plotline, which has the exact same kind of issues but much, much worse.)

 

[Funyarinpa]

Nah im with ya overall. Really the most offensive moment to me is the tent scene but like I said before I see that mostly as this is Yosukes shitty character. I have seen the argument of some posters in here that they should let you call him out on that to improve the scene and I agree.

Yeah, the option to call them out wouldn't hurt at all, and would excuse the inclusion of some scenes and bigoted characters overall.

Edit:

Labeling P4 spoilers just in case, but is it just me or are people completely missing the fact that

Spoiler

the things seen on the Midnight Channel are influenced by what the people of Inaba think about the victim? For example, Yukiko's shown as a princess not only because she's in a "damsel in distress" situation, but also because people think she always acts dignified, like a princess. Kanji, likewise, is shown as flamboyant because people think his feminine interests must mean he's gay. I don't recall Naoto's specifics, but I don't think it's a problem for Kanji.

 

[encephalon]

What you need to do is read Carl Sagan. After that, you would realize that this is from a critical perspective on how superstitions and rumors rule the lives of the adolescent, and adults as you realize further into the game, mostly because their world view is particularly small and sheltered,mostly because society wants it that way and keeps it that way.
Naturally,just cause its in the media doesn't necessarily mean the creators believe this stuff.
Also LGBT is a fantastic conversation starter these days, an "interesting topic" like what started this thread in the first place. The authors have to pick topics that a wide audience would be interested in, whether it's politically correct or not doesn't really matter, nor should it. It's just fun to explore and thought provoking.
Sorry for the Yusuke answer.

You either have no idea where people are coming from, find offense at where they are coming from, or a little of both.

 

[Marmaladefire]

Yeah, the option to call them out wouldn't hurt at all, and would excuse the inclusion of some scenes and bigoted characters overall.

Edit:

Labeling P4 spoilers just in case, but is it just me or are people completely missing the fact that

Spoiler

the things seen on the Midnight Channel are influenced by what the people of Inaba think about the victim? For example, Yukiko's shown as a princess not only because she's in a "damsel in distress" situation, but also because people think she always acts dignified, like a princess. Kanji, likewise, is shown as flamboyant because people think his feminine interests must mean he's gay. I don't recall Naoto's specifics, but I don't think it's a problem for Kanji.

Your spoiler is pretty incorrect though. The midnight channel shows what the person thinks of themselves. The part of them they try to hide or are ashamed of. Most of Inaba doesn't know about

Spoiler

Chie's insecurities regarding Yukiko, and they don't view Kanji as "girly". They think he's a delinquent. No one cares anywhere near as much about Yosuke being a dork with no game as he does (And that ultimately what his dungeon is about, honestly, taking away the Saki plot device.)

 

[encephalon]

I just really like girls

If you came in to thread whine about this topic, maybe you don't, actually.

 

[Funyarinpa]

Your spoiler is pretty incorrect though. The midnight channel shows what the person thinks of themselves. The part of them they try to hide or are ashamed of. Most of Inaba doesn't know about

Spoiler

Chie's insecurities regarding Yukiko, and they don't view Kanji as "girly". They think he's a delinquent. No one cares anywhere near as much about Yosuke being a dork with no game as he does (And that ultimately what his dungeon is about, honestly, taking away the Saki plot device.)

I can see that, but I really felt that my spoiler came into play in the late-game. Huh.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Kanji's S. Link is

Spoiler

about how his hobbies like sewing are seen as "girly".

 

[storafötter]

I cant believe that people excuse these issues because it is so rampant in Japanese media. I find it still embarrasing whenever I play a game or watch a film that objectifies women and act homophobic. Where harrasment is a gag and being gay is offensive or funny. I gotta say Persona 4 is one of the worst examples of these type of things that I have played in a long run.

It doesnt help that this game forces you to interact with the characters and spend most of the time going through embarrasing moments of "character development". It is disappointing to hear that Persona 5 is not much better which makes me less excited for playing the sequel.

I kinda liked Kanji but the way they handled his character and "weakness" is very embarrasing and should have not resort to mixed gender roles and gags.

 

[thepenguin55]

It's anime.

This is probably the most appropriate answer. Pervy-ness that is sort of borderline rape-y is something of an anime trope. Not that I'm giving Persona a pass but rather the issue here is the symptom of a much larger problem.

 

[Dremark]

The stupid "eww gay people" jokes in P3-P5 also suck, which is odd since there was a gay dating option in P2 and that came out 13+ years ago.

When did homosexuality come up in 3? I don't recall any mention of it or any characters or situations that would touch on the subject in that game.

 

[Kinsei]

When did homosexuality come up in 3? I don't recall any mention of it or any characters or situations that would touch on the subject in that game.

The beach scene was a double whammy of transphobia and homophobia.

 

[Dremark]

The beach scene was a double whammy of transphobia and homophobia.

Oh, I do think I remember that now. It's been quite a while since I played it.

 

[zMiiChy-]

I still really loved Kanji.
Even so, it was extremely depressing how they threw his homosexuality under the bus.

Also, the Sayako scenes were gross.
She was a blatant sexual predator and everyone was okay with it, yet I'm sure many people would complain if the genders of the protagonist and her were reversed.

It's also distasteful how Atlus sexualized Naoto further and further with every subsequent spin-off.

In spite of all this, the worst thing about the series to me personally is how cheating is glorified.

You can date pretty much all the females of the game with little consequences, and the way all involved parties involved react is minimal.

It's almost insulting considering Atlus was very progressive towards the subject of adultery with one of their previous titles(Catherine).

 

[The Artisan]

Holy cow I'm not arguing that everything in western culture is sacred, where did you get that idea from

I think there's plenty wrong in western culture, particularly how gore is more acceptable than nudity

But regardless, I'm just saying that if something is sexist, it should be called out as sexist. Just because something is normalized does not mean it is okay.

You do have a point there, but the gore is always fake shit, the nudity is real people showing up naked to sell.

 

[Kain]

You do have a point there, but the gore is always fake shit, the nudity is real people showing up naked to sell.

Huh? So a naked character in a videogame is real but gore is not? I'm lost

 

[PSqueak]

It's almost insulting considering Atlus was very progressive towards the subject of adultery with one of their previous titles(Catherine).

Isn't Catherine still horrible Transphobic by way of the supernatural elements of the plot counting the Trans character as "a man who is getting in the way of procreation"?

 

[Funyarinpa]

Also, the Sayako scenes were gross.
She was a blatant sexual predator and everyone was okay with it, yet I'm sure many people would complain if the genders of the protagonist and her were reversed.

In spite of all this, the worst thing about the series to me personally is how cheating is glorified.

You can date pretty much all the females of the game with little consequences, and the way all involved parties involved react is minimal.

It's almost insulting considering Atlus was very progressive towards the subject of adultery with one of their previous titles(Catherine).

You're not wrong that it was messed up (at least in the beginning, she dropped that later on IIRC), but I enjoyed it anyways lol (I was sixteen at the time I played P4G, my projections were going wild). Is she even romanceable in the end?

Also, regarding cheating: I feel that Persona just doesn't focus on the protagonist's romance at all. It's mostly a side thing, and only brought to attention on special days. So that's also why cheating doesn't receive much attention: romance itself isn't a major point. I'd love to be able to sustain and develop a relationship after getting into one, though.

Huh? So a naked character in a videogame is real but gore is not? I'm lost

The "gore being more acceptable than nudity is stupid" argument is something more general than video games- it applies to our movies and TV shows. Films where the protagonists shoots tens of people gets a 13+ rating but a sex scene immediately nets an 18+. That sort of thing.

 

[The Artisan]

Huh? So a naked character in a videogame is real but gore is not? I'm lost

oh I forgot we were talkin about video games. yeah if we're talkin games and we're talkin kids, gore and nudity are both bad.

 

[BeesEight]

Isn't Catherine still horrible Transphobic by way of the supernatural elements of the plot counting the Trans character as "a man who is getting in the way of procreation"?

That seems a bit of a stretch. I'd say it's more problematic because it treats Erika as a joke more often than not rather than the supernatural villain operating under bizarre, illogical motivations (which can be argued as portraying traditional values of procreation as antagonistic and cold-hearted).

On the other hand, the game also has an ending where Erika is in a relationship with the character who struggled the most with her identity wherein he accepts it and loves her so I'd say it's pretty positive overall.

 

[PSqueak]

oh I forgot we were talkin about video games. yeah if we're talkin games and we're talkin kids, gore and nudity are both bad.

Curiously, i feel violence on videogames is more restricted than movies, Games rated M for violence often depict violence that wouldn't get a movie R ratings.

 

[Risk Breaker]

This is one of reasons why Persona 3 is best.

Still haven't played 5, busy with Nier, but it doesn't sound good. :/

 

[The Artisan]

Curiously, i feel violence on videogames is more restricted than movies, Games rated M for violence often depict violence that wouldn't get a movie R ratings.

which games are we talkin here? i would say and think that the M games that don't have the worse violence probably got the M for bigger reasons like language then.

 

[PSqueak]

which games are we talkin here? i would say and think that the M games that don't have the worse violence probably got the M for bigger reasons like language then.

I admit this could be a possibility.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

which games are we talkin here? i would say and think that the M games that don't have the worse violence probably got the M for bigger reasons like language then.

I mean people were disturbed by that torture scene in gtav, i personally didn't think nothing of it. Granted, I'm desentized by a lot of stuff that people find controversial.

 

[etrain911]

I felt conflicted about it, because on one hand, having grown up in a small town, people were transphobic and homophobic. Yosuke felt realistically written. On the other, the player character is supposed to be a cipher for you irl, and the fact that you can't tell your friends that their behavior isn't cool (it isn't) feels as though you in-game condone their behavior. For a series that prides itself on critiquing societal problems in Japan, this could've been a chance to have done so, and instead, they use it to propagate harmful tropes and stereotypes for cheap laughs.

 

[Silvard]

I admire Persona for at least acknowledging that gender/sexuality/suicide issues exist. Are they handled perfectly? No. Is this still better than 99% of games which are just "white dude has problems because he is low on ammo"? Yes. At least this way we can have the discussion.

It just can't fix every problem in the world. People need to give it a break.

No they don't, at least not in P3 and up. Homosexuality in particular has actually worse representation than if it wasn't touched upon at all. Straight white dude low on ammo is actually a more positive representation of homosexuality (that is to say, none at all) than using caricatures of gay people as punchlines to a joke (like in P5). To say that isn't "handled perfectly" is a ridiculous understatement.

There's no reason whatsoever why people should give it a break on this issues.

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

That seems a bit of a stretch. I'd say it's more problematic because it treats Erika as a joke more often than not rather than the supernatural villain operating under bizarre, illogical motivations (which can be argued as portraying traditional values of procreation as antagonistic and cold-hearted).

On the other hand, the game also has an ending where Erika is in a relationship with the character who struggled the most with her identity wherein he accepts it and loves her so I'd say it's pretty positive overall.

Also Erica's friends including Vincent, who are all dudes, all support her identifying as a woman and they all shit on said character when he freaks out over Erica being transwoman and telling to him to just get over himself.

 

[Opa-Pa]

No they don't, at least not in P3 and up. Homosexuality in particular has actually worse representation than if it wasn't touched upon at all. Straight white dude low on ammo is actually a more positive representation of homosexuality (that is to say, none at all) than using caricatures of gay people as punchlines to a joke (like in P5). To say that isn't "handled perfectly" is a ridiculous understatement.

There's no reason whatsoever why people should give it a break on this issues.

That was such a bizarre statement, how exactly does modern Persona shows that it gives a crap about gay suicide rates? By portraying them as flamboyant sexual assaulters in P5? Damn.

Also Erica's friends including Vincent, who are all dudes, all support her identifying as a woman and they all shit on said character when he freaks out over Erica being transwoman and telling to him to just get over himself.

No they don't. Erica herself is great, but her friends are huge asses about her identity. They "accept" her sure, but they also make witty remarks every time she talks out loud about being a woman. It's pretty clear once you replay the game knowing that she's trans.

Vincent and Ronaldo specifically act dismissive of her every time, saying stuff like "... And how would YOU know" when she talks about women.

 

[The Artisan]

I mean people were disturbed by that torture scene in gtav, i personally didn't think nothing of it. Granted, I'm desentized by a lot of stuff that people find controversial.

I guess you could say I was "disturbed" by it, and am also kinda appalled at how everybody loves Trevor despite the freak of a human being that he is; Niko was way better than all the GTA5 protags.

But, on the topic of GTAV, I stand by what I said earlier; everything that garnered its M rating, means it should not be played by kids. Teenagers maybe but not little fuckin kids.

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

No they don't. Erica herself is great, but her friends are huge asses about her identity. They "accept" her sure, but they also make witty remarks every time she talks out loud about being a woman. It's pretty clear once you replay the game knowing that she's trans.

Vincent and Ronaldo specifically act dismissive of her every time, saying stuff like "... And how would YOU know" when she talks about women.

I admit I never played it in full and just know stuff here and there, so yeah I'll readily admit I'm mistaken.

NIER still the best at having a character with gender identity problems then. Kaine's grandma is the best minor character in the game.

 

[KillerMan91]

The "gore being more acceptable than nudity is stupid" argument is something more general than video games- it applies to our movies and TV shows. Films where the protagonists shoots tens of people gets a 13+ rating but a sex scene immediately nets an 18+. That sort of thing.

Depends on country really. In some nudity is more accepted than in others. For example in France Blue is the warmest colour was rated 12+ and it has pretty explicit lesbian sex scenes. In US it got NC-17 rating that is highest rating and many theaters refuse to even show NC-17 rated films.

 

[Budi]

Depends on country really. In some nudity is more accepted than in others. For example in France Blue is the warmest colour was rated 12+ and it has pretty explicit lesbian sex scenes. In US it got NC-17 rating that is highest rating and many theaters refuse to even show NC-17 rated films.

Respect for that, I was also surprised to see Moonlight rated R. It's 12+ in Finland. It started with 16+ because of the violence, drugs and distress but got re-evaluated and lowered to 12.

 

[firehawk12]

No they don't. Erica herself is great, but her friends are huge asses about her identity. They "accept" her sure, but they also make witty remarks every time she talks out loud about being a woman. It's pretty clear once you replay the game knowing that she's trans.

Vincent and Ronaldo specifically act dismissive of her every time, saying stuff like "... And how would YOU know" when she talks about women.

I mean, the fact that she's a victim of the nightmares makes the implication that sex and gender are the same thing, since they seem to only affect "men", so it's not like the game was trying to be all that progressive.

 

[Ennosuke]

Wow huge thread and I can't say you are wrong about those things. But still I feel like P4G was doing a great job portaying many different aspects of life, with many interesting individual problems.

I always thought abou Kanji es being bi-sexual and thought that games usually don't have the guts to do that.