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[Skyzard]

^

People are more selfish when it comes to things they care less about.

Social Justice lottery? That isn't how it works. I've watched several of Jon's videos, him debating etc, and he has a big issue even acknowledging the current climate of anti-black racism. He doesn't move a single Planck, even though he knows that racism is a huge problem.

Honestly, if someone I was a fan of ever expressed views like this, consistently and doubled down on them, I wouldn't be fans of them anymore. And you shouldn't either.

He's proven, himself, that he's unsalvageable. If he wanted to know about BLM, all he has to do is send a PM to deray on twitter. If he wanted to be a good person, he would be, but he willingly chooses racism and white nationalism. This isn't an accident like bumping into someone and they fall over.

And at a certain point, when you make excuses for an abhorrent person like Jon, it reflects on yourself as well. Because it says, I don't really care if he's spewing a rhetoric that endangers and targets minorities. Like, we have famous youtubers defending jon and they didn't even watch the debates and stuff he was in and said we need to meet in the middle.

This entire situation is absurd, and Yooka-Laylee shouldn't suffer because they said, I don't want to associate with this person anymore.

Social Justice lottery got me too.

 

[Giever]

The discussion of whether or not doing a racist thing makes you A RACIST, or, like, doing an idiotic thing makes you AN IDIOT is a philosophical one that isn't exactly easily agreed upon (and probably doesn't have much of an answer), and is kind of besides the point so long as people can at least just agree that JonTron said a bunch of racist things and probably thinks racist things and hopefully stops and folk ought to call that shit out, etc., etc.

 

[Nanashrew]

The discussion of whether or not doing a racist thing makes you A RACIST, or, like, doing an idiotic thing makes you AN IDIOT is a philosophical one that isn't exactly easily agreed upon (and probably doesn't have much of an answer), and is kind of besides the point so long as people can at least just agree that JonTron said a bunch of racist things and probably thinks racist things and hopefully stops and folk ought to call that shit out, etc., etc.

I just think he's both.

 

[Haines]

What happened?

I know he made comments. Internet got passed. He made a shitty rebuttal video. They took him out of game.

What has happened since that has blown up so much?

 

[Kinsei]

What happened?

I know he made comments. Internet got passed. He made a shitty rebuttal video. They took him out of game.

What has happened since that has blown up so much?

People screaming about "censorship".

 

[joe2187]

Im reminded of Woolie from Super Best Friends Play talking about his meeting with JonTron about two years ago during a podcast discussion. Said he met him at a con briefly exchanged numbers and Woolie texted him a couple times so they could do a collab video and he never responded after like five texts or more and woolie gave up.

Kind of paints a new light on that interaction now.

 

[The_Kid]

People only have the aversion to "racist" because when you think of that you think of like, a big evil ku klux klan member who is inherently evil or some disney villain shit, rather than ingrained prejudices that everyone probably has to some degree. Criticize someone's views but don't you dare put a label on them. Someone can have abhorrent views but the second nazi or racist or whatever arbitrary label is placed on them, it suddenly becomes some sort of philosophical gymnastic meeting on why their views don't place them at -that- level. But it just feels like the farther and farther you place the requirements to be "racist", the harder it is to tackle any sort of prejudiced stances you have.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

What happened?

I know he made comments. Internet got passed. He made a shitty rebuttal video. They took him out of game.

What has happened since that has blown up so much?

Someone asked him for facts that blacks commit more crimes than whites regardless of social status, and he posted an article about how we jail more blacks than whites.

 

[Glazed]

Someone asked him for facts that blacks commit more crimes than whites regardless of social status, and he posted an article about how we jail more blacks than whites.

 

[Giever]

What happened?

I know he made comments. Internet got passed. He made a shitty rebuttal video. They took him out of game.

What has happened since that has blown up so much?

The main reason for the blow-up is that a bunch of people are upset that Playtonic decided they didn't want to associate themselves or their game with a guy who said a bunch of racist things and is making a mess of himself. It's not really because JonTron said anything new since then (as far as I'm aware), but that the less liberally savvy folk are now rallying around cries of censorship, bombarding the game's Steam page with shitty tags and filling the discussion page with trash, etc.

 

[EatinOlives]

What happened?

I know he made comments. Internet got passed. He made a shitty rebuttal video. They took him out of game.

What has happened since that has blown up so much?

That's pretty much it actually. Then alt-right fuckwads decided to jump on this and shit on Playtonic's pages on social media (facebook, Twitter, Steam forums, etc.) and perpetuate the rumor that GAF "forced" Playtonic into removing him because rabble rabble sjw speech-hating librul cucks or some shit.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Im reminded of Woolie from Super Best Friends Play talking about his meeting with JonTron about two years ago during a podcast discussion. Said he met him at a con briefly exchanged numbers and Woolie texted him a couple times so they could do a collab video and he never responded after like five texts or more and woolie gave up.

Kind of paints a new light on that interaction now.

Especially weird since the SBF guys are friends with Sleepy Cabin crew, who are friends/in the same social circle as Jon and Grumps.

 

[nkarafo]

Calling JonTron a comedian is giving him too much credit

Hey now, he may be a racist but he is one of the few Youtubers who could make me laugh. At least in some of his older videos.

 

[Oblivion]

Someone asked him for facts that blacks commit more crimes than whites regardless of social status, and he posted an article about how we jail more blacks than whites.

It's even better because he only did that after an initial attempt by ChrisRayGun defending him by posting some dumbass FB image macro.

Also, I was arguing with some alt-righter about that same study the other day, and he argued that the guy who came up with the study was "hiding the truth".

 

[besada]

The whole discussion about comedians and comedy is wildly out of place in this thread. JonTron wasn't doing a comedy routine. He wasn't cracking jokes. He was attempting to put forth a serious argument that was explicitly racist.

If Dave Chappelle did a TV interview and made a serious argument that Jews had a criminal gene, you can bet your ass people would call him anti-semitic, and he'd be damaged financially.

 

[allenpergallon]

I just wanted to say that I guessed the Tasha plottwist mid-season.

Spoiler

And also that Steam forum backlash is always a big fat joke. It's always a bunch of whining from people not even planning to buy the game or who can't even afford it pushing a garbage agenda to make themselves feel better. It still amazes me that rational people try to go toe-to-toe with their mindless yammering.

 

[Tanoomba]

I think it's kind of weird that the things that bother you most about JonTron are related to how he plays video games and not shit like "Black Lives Matter is a criminal organization" or "immigrants dilute the gene pool."

See, I see that as shit he was exposed to and became convinced of because a bunch of like-minded individuals focus on specific cases of their opponent's extremism in order to push a bought-into narrative. I think that's pretty much an inevitable side effect of insisting on arguing with an "us vs them" mentality.

People only have the aversion to "racist" because when you think of that you think of like, a big evil ku klux klan member who is inherently evil or some disney villain shit, rather than ingrained prejudices that everyone probably has to some degree. Criticize someone's views but don't you dare put a label on them. Someone can have abhorrent views but the second nazi or racist or whatever arbitrary label is placed on them, it suddenly becomes some sort of philosophical gymnastic meeting on why their views don't place them at -that- level. But it just feels like the farther and farther you place the requirements to be "racist", the harder it is to tackle any sort of prejudiced stances you have.

Sure, that's a valid observation. You feel like the meaning of a word is being distorted in order to suit an agenda, and that you are speaking out in defense of the true meaning of the word.

The thing is, what the other "side" also sees is the the meaning of a word being distorted in order to suit an agenda, and they believe they are the ones speaking out in defense of the true meaning of the word.

Because both "sides" are convinced of their moral superiority, they both choose to make this their line in the sand, and neither side is actually discussing anything, They're just taking turns creatively labeling each other so it's clear everyone knows the other guys are the "bad guys".

I guess I just fundamentally disagree with that approach to discussion.

 

[nkarafo]

This might make you aim your pitchforks at me but do you really think Playtonic did the best thing they could, financially speaking? Seems like a lose-lose situation for them. Keep the voice? People will boycott. Remove the voice? People will boycott.

So lets say that you really need those sales. What would you do? I think the best move would be to lay low and don't make a change, maybe even claim that it's too difficult to make this change in this later part of the development, it could cause a development hell. And a couple of weeks later remove the voice via a patch in order to win back the people who would boycott for not removing JonTron. The patch would show good will and it would also be a bit late for the "other" crowd to boycott. Plus, the game might even be good enough so they wouldn't want to after playing it.

Removing the voice can be done any time and they would still look good. But there is no good reason for re-including him after the drama, it would be a PR disaster. So they can't do the reverse.

 

[Skyzard]

This might make you aim your pitchforks at me but do you really think Playtonic did the best thing they could, financially speaking? Seems like a lose-lose situation for them. Keep the voice? People will boycott. Remove the voice? People will boycott.

So lets say that you really need those sales. What would you do? I think the best move would be to lay low and don't make a change, maybe even claim that it's too difficult to make this change in this later part of the development, it could cause a development hell. And a couple of weeks later remove the voice via a patch in order to win back the people who would boycott for not removing JonTron. The patch would show good will and it would also be a bit late for the "other" crowd to boycott. Plus, the game might even be good enough so they wouldn't want to after playing it.

Because, removing him can be done any time. But there is no good reason for including him after the drama. So they can't do the reverse, it would be amazingly bad.

This makes them better and look it. That could have a financial impact too.

 

[Nanashrew]

It's even better because he only did that after an initial attempt by ChrisRayGun defending him by posting some dumbass FB image macro.

Also, I was arguing with some alt-righter about that same study the other day, and he argued that the guy who came up with the study was "hiding the truth".

ChrisRayGun is a GGer and an idiot, so I'm not surprised he rushed to Jon's defense. I've had him blocked for a long time now.

 

[James Scott]

This might make you aim your pitchforks at me but do you really think Playtonic did the best thing they could, financially speaking? Seems like a lose-lose situation for them. Keep the voice? People will boycott. Remove the voice? People will boycott.

So lets say that you really need those sales. What would you do? I think the best move would be to lay low and don't make a change, maybe even claim that it's too difficult to make this change in this later part of the development, it could cause a development hell. And a couple of weeks later remove the voice via a patch in order to win back the people who would boycott for not removing JonTron. The patch would show good will and it would also be a bit late for the "other" crowd to boycott. Plus, the game might even be good enough so they wouldn't want to after playing it.

Because, removing him can be done any time. But there is no good reason for including him after the drama. So they can't do the reverse, it would be amazingly bad.

It has more people talking about the game so it might work out. Being against someone that's labeled as a racist is probably better than supporting someone that's labeled as a racist anyways.

 

[danm999]

So lets say that you really need those sales. What would you do? I think the best move would be to lay low and don't make a change, maybe even claim that it's too difficult to make this change in this later part of the development, it could cause a development hell. And a couple of weeks later remove the voice via a patch in order to win back the people who would boycott for not removing JonTron. The patch would show good will and it would also be a bit late for the "other" crowd to boycott. Plus, the game might even be good enough so they wouldn't want to after playing it.

I mean I think this scenario would look exactly as craven and transparent as it sounds and backfire horribly.

 

[crackhead_bob]

A company does the right thing and people create fake allegations about the same thing the company stood up against in an effort to confuse those who don't really know what's going on. That's just evil.

I read that post. How does one discern if it's a genuine concern that the product is linked to someone who has gone on the record of espousing racist views from one who is spreading false accusations of racism to spite PT after they had distanced themselves from said individual?

 

[Mozendo]

Man seeing some of screencaps saying "keep politics out of my video games" weren't gamergaters against that when the movement was at it's peak of it's popularity? Man the hypocrisy

 

[Dai101]

Social justice lottery?

The fuck that means?

 

[spineduke]

This might make you aim your pitchforks at me but do you really think Playtonic did the best thing they could, financially speaking? Seems like a lose-lose situation for them. Keep the voice? People will boycott. Remove the voice? People will boycott.

So lets say that you really need those sales. What would you do? I think the best move would be to lay low and don't make a change, maybe even claim that it's too difficult to make this change in this later part of the development, it could cause a development hell. And a couple of weeks later remove the voice via a patch in order to win back the people who would boycott for not removing JonTron. The patch would show good will and it would also be a bit late for the "other" crowd to boycott. Plus, the game might even be good enough so they wouldn't want to after playing it.

Removing the voice can be done any time and they would still look good. But there is no good reason for re-including him after the drama, it would be a PR disaster. So they can't do the reverse.

Fuck no. What sort of apologist bullshit is this? You think playtonic are focused on "looking good"? When they removed JonTron, it was out of conviction, not some pathetic display of trying to appease "one side".

Your comment is wholly inappropriate​.

 

[Kyuuketsu_Night]

Had no real idea about this game until this thread. Glad to hear they are distancing themselves... Game looks interesting and is on my wishlist =)

 

[joe2187]

This might make you aim your pitchforks at me but do you really think Playtonic did the best thing they could, financially speaking? Seems like a lose-lose situation for them. Keep the voice? People will boycott. Remove the voice? People will boycott.

So lets say that you really need those sales. What would you do? I think the best move would be to lay low and don't make a change, maybe even claim that it's too difficult to make this change in this later part of the development, it could cause a development hell. And a couple of weeks later remove the voice via a patch in order to win back the people who would boycott for not removing JonTron. The patch would show good will and it would also be a bit late for the "other" crowd to boycott. Plus, the game might even be good enough so they wouldn't want to after playing it.

Removing the voice can be done any time and they would still look good. But there is no good reason for re-including him after the drama, it would be a PR disaster. So they can't do the reverse.

So you're encouraging a dev to lie, and manipulate their fans and consumers?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

This might make you aim your pitchforks at me but do you really think Playtonic did the best thing they could, financially speaking?

I am proud of them that they didn't give a shit.

 

[Lutherian]

I just looked at Yooka-Laylee's Steam Communities and I think JonTron's fanbase is as toxic as he is (now).

One example ?
"Playtonic's move only makes terrorist attacks MORE likely, not less"
"But in practice, by firing Jontron, Playtonic has now caused another 9/11 in the making."

Wow. I mean, there's Godwin points and now there's this. When I rise to power, those people will be sterilized.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGtK4yQV_h4

 

[nkarafo]

I am proud of them that they didn't give a shit.

That's nice but it wasn't the topic of my question. I asked about the financial part of the deal and even underlined that word (now bolded). Morally, they did the right thing but there is no moral being questioned here. But i agree with the other poster, that controversy makes your game more popular due to coverage.

So you're encouraging a dev to lie, and manipulate their fans and consumers?

Since they are a company who try to sell a game, money making is also important so i am wondering if a marketing guy would find a more clever way to deal with the problem?

 

[Nanashrew]

See, I see that as shit he was exposed to and became convinced of because a bunch of like-minded individuals focus on specific cases of their opponent's extremism in order to push a bought-into narrative. I think that's pretty much an inevitable side effect of insisting on arguing with an "us vs them" mentality.




Sure, that's a valid observation. You feel like the meaning of a word is being distorted in order to suit an agenda, and that you are speaking out in defense of the true meaning of the word.

The thing is, what the other "side" also sees is the the meaning of a word being distorted in order to suit an agenda, and they believe they are the ones speaking out in defense of the true meaning of the word.

Because both "sides" are convinced of their moral superiority, they both choose to make this their line in the sand, and neither side is actually discussing anything, They're just taking turns creatively labeling each other so it's clear everyone knows the other guys are the "bad guys".

I guess I just fundamentally disagree with that approach to discussion.

Try to have a civil discussion with them. I did. They kept saying I was deflecting, that I was just part of an SJW group think. I provided facts, I stayed on focus to a singular thing, They kept moving around and going on tangents to find any way they could to defend JonTron. I even humored them and discussed a video JonTron was in where they praised the AfD (Alternative for Deutschland/Germany) because it got brought up. I described how it's seen as a new nazi movement with a lot of pro-Hitler sentiment among their party. The moment Hitler came up they said I was calling them Hitler because they have views I don't agree with.

When discussing about the gene pool statements they rearranged what he said to try to make it sound like what he was saying wasn't bad. When the statistics about "rich blacks commit more crimes than poor whites" came up, I talked about how the entire article JonTron linked was completely misinterpreted and how it was about racism in the justice system. They at least had little to comment about that. Eventually it came down to them saying that the left is in favor of pedophilia because of something Lena Dunham talked about in 2014 that she sexually abused her younger sister.

There was little point in trying to debate or argue with them because all they had was deflection and ad hominem.

 

[Captain Europe]

I am proud of them that they didn't give a shit.

Exactly, going to bed with a clean conscious is worth a lot more than making some extra money.

 

[danm999]

That's nice but it wasn't the topic of my question. I asked about the financial part of the deal and even underlined that word (now bolded). Morally, they did the right thing but there is no moral being questioned here.


Since they are a company who try to sell a game, money making is also important so i am wondering if a marketing guy would find a more clever way to deal with the problem?

There is no clever way. A transparent lie to try and appease everyone will please no one.

And on top of the controversy that already exists you get tagged as an unethical developer.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I just looked at Yooka-Laylee's Steam Communities and I think JonTron's fanbase is as toxic as he is (now).

One example ?
"Playtonic's move only makes terrorist attacks MORE likely, not less"
"But in practice, by firing Jontron, Playtonic has now caused another 9/11 in the making."

Um.

The first one is weird enough.

But the second comment.

No words for that kind of idiocy.

 

[EatinOlives]

Try to have a civil discussion with them. I did. They kept saying I was deflecting, that I was just part of an SJW group think. I provided facts, I stayed on focus to a singular thing, They kept moving around and going on tangents to find any way they could to defend JonTron. I even humored them and discussed a video JonTron was in where they praised the AfD (Alternative for Deutschland/Germany) because it got brought up. I described how it's seen as a new nazi movement with a lot of pro-Hitler sentiment among their party. The moment Hitler came up they said I was calling them Hitler because they have views I don't agree with.

When discussing about the gene pool statements they rearranged what he said to try to make it sound like what he was saying wasn't bad. When the statistics about "rich blacks commit more crimes than poor whites" came up, I talked about how the entire article JonTron linked was completely misinterpreted and how it was about racism in the justice system. They at least had little to comment about that. Eventually it came down to them saying that the left is in favor of pedophilia because of something Lena Dunham talked about in 2014 that she sexually abused her younger sister.

There was little point in trying to debate or argue with them because all they had was deflection and ad hominem.

The thing is, I don't think the people who perpetuate the "both sides" argument are actually interested in people having legitimate arguments across the aisle. I don't exactly know what kind of "constructive" conversations they expect the people on the Steam forums to have, for example.

Rather, fence-sitters like to feel "above" the fray. That way they can shit on "both sides" while not having to be informed about the controversy in any real way.

 

[Manzoon]

There was little point in trying to debate or argue with them because all they had was deflection and ad hominem.

This has been largely my experience, reasoning and facts don't matter if the other party already has their head in the sand. The most you can hope for is that you reach a silent observer on the sidelines.

 

[Big Nikus]

This might make you aim your pitchforks at me but do you really think Playtonic did the best thing they could, financially speaking? Seems like a lose-lose situation for them. Keep the voice? People will boycott. Remove the voice? People will boycott.

So lets say that you really need those sales. What would you do? I think the best move would be to lay low and don't make a change, maybe even claim that it's too difficult to make this change in this later part of the development, it could cause a development hell. And a couple of weeks later remove the voice via a patch in order to win back the people who would boycott for not removing JonTron. The patch would show good will and it would also be a bit late for the "other" crowd to boycott. Plus, the game might even be good enough so they wouldn't want to after playing it.

Removing the voice can be done any time and they would still look good. But there is no good reason for re-including him after the drama, it would be a PR disaster. So they can't do the reverse.

Whatever. Integrity is a thing, and it seems they're not lacking in that department.

 

[aravuus]

"But in practice, by firing Jontron, Playtonic has now caused another 9/11 in the making."

What in the everliving fuck lol

 

[jacob armitage]

What in the everliving fuck lol

I've lost all faith in humanity.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

This might make you aim your pitchforks at me but do you really think Playtonic did the best thing they could, financially speaking?

These kinds of people don't have earning power and thus buying power. That's why they waste time harassing others.

Sure they might be some potential sales lost from people who'd like to play a platformer but don't approve of developers distancing themselves from slobbering racists, but there will also be people who decide to support them financially for being one of the few devs with descended testicles

 

[spineduke]

But i agree with the other poster, that controversy makes your game more popular due to coverage.

Since they are a company who try to sell a game, money making is also important so i am wondering if a marketing guy would find a more clever way to deal with the problem?

What clever ways do you envision where you tap into people's emotional feelings to maximize sales while appealing to both sides? Don't you think the nature of your question is sleazy? The focus on money when racial discrimination is on play?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

That's nice but it wasn't the topic of my question. I asked about the financial part of the deal and even underlined that word (now bolded). Morally, they did the right thing but there is no moral being questioned here. But i agree with the other poster, that controversy makes your game more popular due to coverage.

Right. And I said I'm proud they didn't care about the financial damage. You asked if they did the best thing they could financially. My answer implicitly says no, but it's a good thing that they went ahead regardless.

Money from shitheads is still green, but if you can say you don't care if you get it, at least you can sleep at night.

 

[Crocodile]

I don't really have much to add (man this topic is long) aside from:

• Fuck JonTron, I wish he'd learn and grow from this but that seems unlikely, Dude was spouting straight, uncut racism. That shit is unacceptable.
• Fuck his ardent defenders, learn what free speech actually is and have some empathy for your fellow human. Considering how many of them are young it makes me fear for the future
• People playing "both sides" or "its wasn't really racism" need to step back and realize the harm they are doing >_<
• Kudos to Playtonic, they did the right thing and I feel confident most of this will have died down by the time the game actually comes out
• Kudos to Tasha2k2 for actually asking questions and trying to learn. Too few teenagers are doing that nowadays. I too thought they were one of those disingenuous "question-askers" but since they were being sincere they are doing the right thing

 

[Nanashrew]

This might make you aim your pitchforks at me but do you really think Playtonic did the best thing they could, financially speaking? Seems like a lose-lose situation for them. Keep the voice? People will boycott. Remove the voice? People will boycott.

So lets say that you really need those sales. What would you do? I think the best move would be to lay low and don't make a change, maybe even claim that it's too difficult to make this change in this later part of the development, it could cause a development hell. And a couple of weeks later remove the voice via a patch in order to win back the people who would boycott for not removing JonTron. The patch would show good will and it would also be a bit late for the "other" crowd to boycott. Plus, the game might even be good enough so they wouldn't want to after playing it.

Removing the voice can be done any time and they would still look good. But there is no good reason for re-including him after the drama, it would be a PR disaster. So they can't do the reverse.

Old proverb: He who follows two hares catches neither.

 

[llehuty]

Bit offtopic, but does anyone have any idea where do this sentient accounts come from? I'm talking about this accounts, normally created a while ago, that only have this weird backwards arguments in this kind of controversial threads.

I mean, why are they even creating an account in a gaming forum?

 

[DrBillRiverman]

Boy howdy this thread was a ride and a half to read!

I only saw Jon's tweets and Boogies video and neither of those seemed that bad on their own.

But its really clear I need to listen to that interview to get the full picture.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

Boy howdy this thread was a ride and a half to read!

I only saw Jon's tweets and Boogies video and neither of those seemed that bad on their own.

But its really clear I need to listen to that interview to get the full picture.

Here you are.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/128362374?t=10m


I only made it about an hour in before I gave up.

 

[Messofanego]

Waitaminute! Boogie is in his forties? I thought he was like mid-twenties or something.

Holy shit, I had no idea. That just makes it even worse.

 

[mrlion]

Waitaminute! Boogie is in his forties? I thought he was like mid-twenties or something.

Why do you think he's worried about his health now...his health will start declining as he hits further into the forties and into the fifties.