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[ponpo]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/03/us/middlebury-college-charles-murray-bell-curve-protest.html

BOSTON — Hundreds of students at Middlebury College in Vermont shouted down a controversial speaker on Thursday night, disrupting a program and confronting the speaker in an encounter that turned violent and left a faculty member injured.

Laurie L. Patton, the president of the college, issued an apology on Friday to all who attended the event and to the speaker, Charles Murray, 74, whose book ”The Bell Curve," published in 1994, was an explosive treatise arguing that blacks were intellectually inferior to whites because of their genetic makeup.

”Today our community begins the process of addressing the deep and troubling divisions that were on display last night," Ms. Patton said in her statement, adding that the Middlebury community had ”failed to live up to our core values." She said that some of the protesters appeared to be from elsewhere but that Middlebury students had also been involved.

The chaotic scene at the small liberal arts college in Vermont drew sharp criticism from the right. Conservatives said that the students were intolerant, had engaged in mob mentality and were quashing free speech, while those on the left maintained that the speaker was racist and hateful and had no place on their campus.

The left-leaning Southern Poverty Law Center describes Mr. Murray as a ”white nationalist" who uses ”racist pseudoscience and misleading statistics to argue that social inequality is caused by the genetic inferiority of the black and Latino communities, women and the poor."

But an open letter to the college from more than 450 alumni objecting to Mr. Murray's presence on campus said it was not a matter of free speech. The letter, written before Thursday's event, said that his views were offensive and based on shoddy scholarship and that they should not be legitimized.

”In this case, there's not really any ‘other side,' only deceptive statistics masking unfounded bigotry," the letter said.

Mr. Murray had been invited to the campus by the American Enterprise Institute Club, a group of about a dozen generally conservative-leaning students.

Hayden Dublois, 21, a senior and treasurer of the club, said that the students had thought Mr. Murray — whose 2012 book, ”Coming Apart," examines the white working class — would be interesting to hear in light of the presidential election.

But when Mr. Murray rose to speak, he was shouted down by most of the more than 400 students packed into the room, several witnesses said. Many turned their backs to him and chanted slogans like ”Racist, sexist, anti-gay, Charles Murray go away!"

Washington Post article
and another article with some videos.

Thoughts? I see people online saying a campus speaking event is an appropriate place for the controversial stuff he has talked about to be argued against. The students and faculty against the talk seem to think it's too bigoted to warrant discussion.

 

[tbm24]

Not sure how else you can interpret The Bell Curve other than full on racism.

 

[RoyalFool]

Christ, I haven't read the book but is it based on scientific studies? If so then it would be an appropriate place to discuss. If it's baseless racism then it isn't.

We allowed religion to censor science before and that didn't work out too well, but sure where I stand on political correctness vs science. What good can come from this theory of his?

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Is this the one who said North Korea has the highest average IQ in the world?

 

[caliph95]

Because i have a feeling this will be posted

 

[ponpo]

Christ, I haven't read the book but is it based on scientific studies? If so then it would be an appropriate place to discuss. If it's baseless racism then it isn't.

We allowed religion to censor science before and that didn't work out too well, but sure where I stand on political correctness vs science. What good can come from this theory of his?

I've never read it but I heard it wasn't submitted for any peer review. I think the APA did some analysis on it due to the controversy but I don't know what their conclusions were. Most regard it as pseudo-science anyway, but I don't know what published criticisms about the book say.

 

[Seesaw15]

Good.

 

[boiled goose]

At this point, most of the claims of bell curve are not really considered valid academic opinions. That said... I would rather people win with facts than protests here.



What's ironic is that by the same metric, whites would be inferior to asians, yet You don't hear that angle too much... wonder why.

 

[ponpo]

Is this the one who said North Korea has the highest average IQ in the world?

Probably not? I think the common reported highest are either some group of Asians or Ashkenazi Jews

 

[caliph95]

At this point, most of the claims of bell curve are not really considered valid academic opinions.

What's ironic is that by the same metric, whites would be inferior to asians, yet You don't hear that angle too much... wonder why.

I pretty much only see it to use against those urban fellas and africans in general, sometimes when people point out flaw iq's are and how other factors can affect such things. Also certain not great subreddits

Probably not? I think the common reported highest are either some group of Asians or Ashkenazi Jews

Damn it i knew it. Clearly shows the power of the (((them)))
Also you would think that would put a damp to a lot white supremacy bullshit.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Head of dipshit club: "Hey guys, let's invite that eugenics author to come and give a talk at our overwhelmingly liberal college."

Dipshit club member: "That sounds like a great idea."

 

[Apt101]

Not sure how else you can interpret The Bell Curve other than full on racism.

Victorian era eugenics. May as well change his last name to Lovecraft.

 

[Derwind]

In b4 contrarian Gaffer tries arguing in support of black brain vs white brain.

 

[caliph95]

In b4 contrarian Gaffer tries arguing in support of black brain vs white brain.

Those always make the transracial threads "fun"

 

[RinsFury]

Good. This racist bullshit should not be allowed to be given a platform.

 

[GraveRobberX]

In b4 contrarian Gaffer tries arguing in support of black brain vs white brain.

It really is a grey matter...

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

So does a half white/black person have two brains.

Is that why obama is so based?

If a person with a full white brain is better than a person with a black brain, then does that mean Bam Margera would be a better astrophysicist than Neil Degrasse.

 

[zon]

So does a half white/black person have two brains.

Is that why obama is so based?

If a person with a full white brain is better than a person with a black brain, then does that mean Bam Margera would be a better astrophysicist than Neil Degrasse.

All white people would be better astrophysicists than Degrasse Tyson if it wasn't for jews stopping us from using all of our brains, duh.

 

[Seesaw15]

I guess the people in Get Out had the right idea. Best of both worlds.

 

[chaobreaker]

Fuck all these college administrations that are always quick to wag their fingers at protesters every time this shit goes down.

"Bad protesters! You should be grateful we give these white nationalists a platforms to explain how you're lesser beings!"

 

[Paganmoon]

At this point, most of the claims of bell curve are not really considered valid academic opinions. That said... I would rather people win with facts than protests here.



What's ironic is that by the same metric, whites would be inferior to asians, yet You don't hear that angle too much... wonder why.

Fact's do not work against people so entrenched in their racism, I'm sure the recent US election has shown as much, if it wasn't clear before that.

Debating these "opinions" with facts just legitimizes them as something worth debating, and feeds the alt-rights "just a different view point" narrative.

 

[DonMigs85]

Some of the most resourceful and brilliant inventors today are poor kids in Africa

 

[Chuck Norris]

At this point, most of the claims of bell curve are not really considered valid academic opinions. That said... I would rather people win with facts than protests here.



What's ironic is that by the same metric, whites would be inferior to asians, yet You don't hear that angle too much... wonder why.

Yeah bringing facts to the debate has really helped stem the tide of racism and nationalism in the country

 

[boiled goose]

Fact's do not work against people so entrenched in their racism, I'm sure the recent US election has shown as much, if it wasn't clear before that.

Debating these "opinions" with facts just legitimizes them as something worth debating, and feeds the alt-rights "just a different view point" narrative.

I do understand the challenge with this issue.
If there is one place to have this conversation it's at s University.

Bell curve was based on facts, it just uses them devoid of context, doesn't look at all facts, and of course looks at them through a racist lens.

If we are talking "strategy", you say even debating it legitimizes it. I think shutting it down with protests not facts doesnt do good either.

I know this is a complex, sensitive, and nuanced issue. I'm honestly not sure what the answer is.

I lean on the side expose them with facts. Not shut them down by being louder. The protests give them more attention than they deserve.

 

[Scarecrow]

Don't resort to violence, kids.

 

[Felix Lighter]

These are speaking events, not debates. You protest or you do nothing and maybe write an editorial or letter to the editor to the college paper that no one will read.

 

[excelsiorlef]

These are speaking events, not debates. You protest or you do nothing and maybe write an editorial or letter to the editor to the college paper that no one will read.

Yeah I always love how these things are portrayed as an opportunity to counter argue as if the guy with the platform and the audience member are on the same level. The audience member if there's even a Q&A, might get 30 seconds to counter with zero onus on the speaker to even answer and even less of an onus to engage in a dialogue.

Racist: 2 hour speech
Anti-Racist: I disagree, here's why in 30 seconds.
Racist: Disagree, Next!

The idea that speaker and audience are on equal ground is a fallacy.

The left-leaning Southern Poverty Law Center describes Mr. Murray as a ”white nationalist" who uses ”racist pseudoscience and misleading statistics to argue that social inequality is caused by the genetic inferiority of the black and Latino communities, women and the poor."

Like literally what are you supposed to say to this other than nope?

 

[Messofanego]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/03/us/middlebury-college-charles-murray-bell-curve-protest.html

Washington Post article
and another article with some videos.

Thoughts? I see people online saying a campus speaking event is an appropriate place for the controversial stuff he has talked about to be argued against. The students and faculty against the talk seem to think it's too bigoted to warrant discussion.

Where are you getting the idea that this could become a discussion? I just see one racist dude who's going to talk. There's no panel of others to discuss and debate. This sounds like the conservative students booking Milo into what seems like a one-sided speech where there is no opposition, only some possible in the audience but they don't have a mic so they're not on equal footing. Hence, why the disruptive tactics like feet stamping and shouting.

So, if you're just inviting a dude for hate speech, then pushback is gonna happen.

 

[SaviourMK2]

Who knew throwing a snake into a pit of mongooses would end badly for the snake?

In sorry, but he wanted to cause an outburst. Liberal schools, stop feeding racist trolls, they're morbid

 

[CyclopsRock]

Christ, I haven't read the book but is it based on scientific studies? If so then it would be an appropriate place to discuss. If it's baseless racism then it isn't.

I imagine if you asked different people, you'd get different answers. So who gets to decide?

 

[Derwind]

Bigotry seems to always find a road to legitimacy by masking itself as an alternative point of view.

Meanwhile that alternate way of thinking is used to throw me and other minority under the bus.

If you want to treat me and my people as inferior fine but don't expect me to play nice when that happens.

 

[Boney]

I think the subject being address in the keynote is an important element into the legitimacy of said keynote.

Without a doubt, the Bell Curve sounds heinous. But I give the small (undue) benefit of the doubt as to wether he still stands behind his writing on that book. I doubt he rejects his work, and on that alone, it's legitimate to protest the speaker. But if by the very slim chance he has somewhat walked back on that, and his new book isn't a scapegoat of inmigrants, then I suppose the keynote should've been upheld.

But the irony of the principal apologizing for the 'bigotry' of the protestors to an actual bigot is not lost to me.

Christ, I haven't read the book but is it based on scientific studies? If so then it would be an appropriate place to discuss. If it's baseless racism then it isn't.

We allowed religion to censor science before and that didn't work out too well, but sure where I stand on political correctness vs science. What good can come from this theory of his?

Do you think of Phrenology as a legitimate science?

 

[Breads]

Conservatives said that the students were intolerant, had engaged in mob mentality and were quashing free speech

Funny how their boners for free speech only ever extend to defending hate and pseudo science.

 

[KDR_11k]

I've seen an article about another controversial study that while showing a lower IQ for US blacks also showed no IQ difference for descendants of US blacks who grew up in Europe so the likely culprit would be US black culture, not anything genetic. There were also some changes when people moved and such. No idea how true that is but the genetic differences between "races" are very small.

There are probably studies out there proving "the bell curve" wrong, would be more effective to throw those at him than to just shout him down. Or it would be if people didn't just discard anything that doesn't fit their prejudices.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

What's ironic is that by the same metric, whites would be inferior to asians, yet You don't hear that angle too much... wonder why.

Because they've convinced themselves that Asians have no critical thinking skills and voila! White people comes out on top again.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I've seen an article about another controversial study that while showing a lower IQ for US blacks also showed no IQ difference for descendants of US blacks who grew up in Europe so the likely culprit would be US black culture, not anything genetic. There were also some changes when people moved and such. No idea how true that is but the genetic differences between "races" are very small.

There are probably studies out there proving "the bell curve" wrong, would be more effective to throw those at him than to just shout him down. Or it would be if people didn't just discard anything that doesn't fit their prejudices.

To the bolded umm no it wouldn't

 

[Gully State]

What's ironic is that by the same metric, whites would be inferior to asians, yet You don't hear that angle too much... wonder why.

"Asian students don't have leaderships qualities" herp derp...boils my blood when I see that

 

[Sunster]

just don't break anything or we'll have another milo on our hands.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

At this point, most of the claims of bell curve are not really considered valid academic opinions. That said... I would rather people win with facts than protests here.



What's ironic is that by the same metric, whites would be inferior to asians, yet You don't hear that angle too much... wonder why.

Lol. You don't come to the conclusion that black people are genetically inferior to whites and write an entire book on the subject, nor become a fan of such a book, just because you misinterpreted the facts. If someone is that far down the racism hole I'm not about to dedicate the enormous amount of effort it would take to change their entire world view.

 

[mid83]

I find it hard to believe that people in this day and age actually believe there is a difference in intelligence based on race.

 

[ant_]

Lol. You don't come to the conclusion that black people are genetically inferior to whites and write an entire book on the subject, nor become a fan of such a book, just because you misinterpreted the facts. If someone is that far down the racism hole I'm not about to dedicate the enormous amount of effort it would take to change their entire world view.

Have you read the book?

 

[Zaru]

Some of the most resourceful and brilliant inventors today are poor kids in Africa

If you knew even the slightest bit about what a statistical distribution is then you'd realize what a meaningless statement that is in relation to the Bell Curve's claims.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Have you read the book?

Is it your argument that you believe it possible that black people are genetically inferior to white people?

 

[VenomousCoffee]

I find it hard to believe that people in this day and age actually believe there is a difference in intelligence based on race.

Well it helps if you misrepresent your data...

 

[ant_]

Is it your argument that you believe it possible that black people are genetically inferior to white people?

No, I'm saying that most people in here and critics have not even read the book. The comparison between black and white IQ is a small section in which the author states that there is not enough evidence to draw a conclusion. They say the measured IQ difference could be a result of environment or genetics but there is nothing to draw conclusions off of.

You all are acting like this is a racist manifesto.

 

[DOBERMAN INC]

I find it hard to believe that people in this day and age actually believe there is a difference in intelligence based on race.

Things people believe in 2017:

The world is flat, Evolution is not real, Climate change isn't happening.

It's scary how many people fall into one these beliefs.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

I don't understand why people like this are invited to universities. Doesn't the university have any oversight over who student bodies invite to speak in university locales?

 

[nel e nel]

I've never read it but I heard it wasn't submitted for any peer review. I think the APA did some analysis on it due to the controversy but I don't know what their conclusions were. Most regard it as pseudo-science anyway, but I don't know what published criticisms about the book say.

Books don't have to be, they aren't scientific journals.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

Have you read the book?

No. Not going to, don't need to. I'm not going to read hundreds of pages of drivel about supposed biological differences that somehow blossomed out of social constructs. That very premise literally defies nature. Race is not a biological categorization, so no biological correlations can exist based on it. Please don't tell me you're asking this question because you think a person can't disregard his theory without having read it in its entirety.


Edit- in regard to your second post, it's not a small section. The author deliberately skewed and omitted data to fit his theories. Just because only one section is *explicitly* about race, that doesn't exclude other sections from covertly being about race. One of his categories for judging intelligence was "chronic welfare recipients (mothers)". You have to be pretty obtuse to not see that he's coming as close as possible to calling the category "welfare queens" without actually calling it that.

 

[mid83]

No, I'm saying that most people in here and critics have not even read the book. The comparison between black and white IQ is a small section in which the author states that there is not enough evidence to draw a conclusion. They say the measured IQ difference could be a result of environment or genetics but there is nothing to draw conclusions off of.

You all are acting like this is a racist manifesto.

Why even put it in the book if it's not relevant? It doesn't take a genius to realize that specific issue would be all anybody took away from the book.