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[Neoxon]

Really? I heard Arm was closer to PowerPC than it was to x86 given that both are RISC.

None of my current coding programs use PowerPC (that I know of). Maybe at some point I'll figure out how to get some PowerPC porting going & see how easy or hard that is. But I'm mainly going by the horror stories that my professor & tutors (half of which are grad students) told me.

 

[Mysterious]

See above. I'm not an expert just yet, but I'm on my way there.

So you're a second year student, and probably have done an OOP course, data structures and maybe algorithms. Do you have any experience delivering production code? Because otherwise, you trying to push something you think is true as objective knowledge is rather off-putting.

 

[Hiltz]

As a reminder, here's that January 2013 explanation on what Nintendo's next-gen unified architectural strategy is and is not:

"Last year [2012] we also started a project to integrate the architecture for our future platforms. What we mean by integrating platforms is not integrating handhelds devices and home consoles to make only one machine. What we are aiming at is to integrate the architecture to form a common basis for software development so that we can make software assets more transferable, and operating systems and their build-in applications more portable, regardless of form factor or performance of each platform."

 

[Lilalaunebaer]

It wouldn't be impossible, but it'd be a bit harder to pull off. And at least based on the coding experience that I have (sophomore in college for a Computer Engineering Software degree; experience with Unreal Engine 4 & Unity; have coded in Java, C++, C#, etc.), having the console be ARM would be more of a benefit to Nintendo than it would be a detriment for third parties. I may change my tune if things get dicey as my programs grow more & more complicated, but I'm just going off of my current experiences with programming.


See above. I'm not an expert just yet, but I'm on my way there.

Cool, thanks.

 

[KratosEnergyDrink]

Sorry, but I'll have to disagree. People using Cemu, which is being developed purely by reverse engineering the Wii U, are getting almost full speed emulation on some games (Mario Maker) with low-specced PCs. With all the documentation available, i'm quite sure Nintendo devs are able to code a competent enough emulator.

The Wii U emulator you mentioned runs games far worse than the original even on high-end PCs. Even if its hit accidentally the correct framerate the experience is unstable and full of graphic errors and input lags.

BC ist not something many gamers want, neither PS4 or XOne had backwards compatibility at launch. And current "BC" on XOne is a joke. Nothing that would approve Nintendos "seal of quality".

Why should Nintendo invest money in emulation if they can make money with remasters?

 

[outunderthestars]

Well, not necessarily. Nintendo's patents are pointing to a free-form screen format with a handheld device size, if the console controller is anything sorta like the fakes, then it'd look sufficiently different and novel enough to be distinct from previous controllers and other screen-based devices, while also potentially looking much sleeker and more portable than the Wii U gamepad.

I have no problem with a controller screen combo, I just can't see them supporting the Wii U gamepad at all.

 

[atbigelow]

If they have devices using different architectures, they'll need to distribute universal game binaries, which would also mean devs need to compile to this target.

Which isn't necessarily a crazy thing. Devs already have different targets for compilation.

And while devs don't necessarily write the machine code for games these days, the compilers will need to. It could make their NX platform a bit less performant if they had to do some kind of binary translation at runtime. Could take a cue from Android and compile on install, though!

 

[Neoxon]

So you're a second year student, and probably have done an OOP course, data structures and maybe algorithms. Do you have any experience delivering production code? Because otherwise, you trying to push something you think is true as objective knowledge is rather off-putting.

I have a decent bit of experience, yes, but I'm mainly starting to get my feet wet with production code experience (as of a few months ago). That being said, I've prided myself on making my programs user-friendly from the beginning, which made the transition easier.

 

[diaspora]

As a reminder, here's that January 2013 explanation on what Nintendo's next-gen unified architectural strategy is and is not:

I don't think hybrid conspiracy theorists care.

 

[mark-san]

As something of an addendum to this, if Nintendo goes this route, it would behoove them to hide hardware details from the devs to an even greater degree then Android. If Nintendo goes this route, the best case scenario would be that they have devs submit all software as bytecode.

Only if they use a VM architecture, which would mean a significant overhead. That's usually not very good for a video game system, where you want every inch of performance available.

If we're talking about all the systems on the NX family being able to run the same code, another approach could be fat binaries, containing both ARM and x86 compiled code (See inital versions of OS X for an example). As long as the SDK / API is available on both, all the devs have to consider is the power envelop for each and scale accordingly.

 

[Regiruler]

Well if you're using middleware like UE4 the difference in effort is which "compile for" button to hit

I'm more concerned about native and proprietary ports.

 

[Neoxon]

As a reminder, here's that January 2013 explanation on what Nintendo's next-gen unified architectural strategy is and is not:

No worries, none of us (who have kept up with NX Platform news) believe the single-device hybrid theories.

 

[georly]

I don't like if all consoles use the same architecture. It will lead to commodity which Iwata warned against. I like generations before when each console had it's own design.

Everything being the same seems cheap, safe, and easy to me.

They can achieve that without using x86 can they not?

You want your system's architecture to be as easy to develop for and port to as the competition. Similar architecture (backend) doesn't mean nintendo can't be unique in a million other ways.

You need to be friendly to other developers while also standing out from the competition. How you stand out will vary.

To stand out you can:

• Be the most powerful
• Have a unique controller
• Have a unique interface (UI, way to interact with games/web, etc)
• Have unique hardware features (2nd screen, etc)
• Have a unique ecosystem (mynintendo, smartphone game interaction, cross-play)

Having a unique backend architecture almost always means devs aren't willing to contribute unless you already have the numbers (winning the console race). Then they just begrudgingly tag along because they'd lose potential sales if they don't play by your rules. I don't think nintendo can afford to be the ones that are 'hard to develop for' again. It probably doesn't make a lot of financial sense, as a developer, to have to contribute a ton more resources for a system that'll probably sell 1/10 of what it sells on PS4 (potentially).

 

[Mysterious]

Nintendo's next home console and handheld will be separate, based on what they've been saying. They may share similar branding, but they'll be two different devices. You can't buy a console game and put it inside the handheld and expect it to work.

I don't know how much clearer this quote can get:

"Last year [2012] we also started a project to integrate the architecture for our future platforms. What we mean by integrating platforms is not integrating handhelds devices and home consoles to make only one machine. What we are aiming at is to integrate the architecture to form a common basis for software development so that we can make software assets more transferable, and operating systems and their build-in applications more portable, regardless of form factor or performance of each platform."

What will really happen is that the assets for Mario, Link, etc wouldn't have to be created twice to make a Smash Bros. for both the console and handheld. You wouldn't have to recreate assets to make both Super Mario 3D Land 2 and Super Mario Galaxy 3. You can simply use a lower resolution, lower fidelity asset for Mario for the handheld Smash, and a more higher resolution asset for Mario for the console Smash.

Create it once. Reuse it across platforms.

They probably realized their mistakes when they had to recreate assets for Mario Kart 8, Super Smash Bros. for Wii U, Super Mario 3D World, when they already existed in Mario Kart 7, Super Smash Bros. for 3DS, Super Mario 3D Land.

 

[doop_]

The mod who verified him signed up to GAF, waiting to be approved.

 

[Regiruler]

I have no problem with a controller screen combo, I just can't see them supporting the Wii U gamepad at all.

Supporting the gamepad would be immensely valuable from a consumer perspective. Giving NX drivers for it, even if it's a different architecture, shouldn't be hard for nintendo.

 

[thenewjeva]

Another day, another slew of contradictory NX rumors. However, I will make a few comments:

1. It seems that if the NX does end up using x86 architecture, then I can see the rumors of shared architecture between console and handheld not being true. Never believed those rumors anyway, but I can still see some cross-buy implementation similar to the PS4 and Vita.

2. In terms of backwards compatibility, I think Nintendo cares too much about preserving their games that I can see it happen for the NX. However, it doesn't mean that the hardware is going to be PPC based. Seeing how far the Cemu emulator has come, I can see emulation being a possibility, and I can see it running better than 360 games on Xbox One if the NX ends up being more powerful. Also, another thing to point out is with Nintendo's SCD initiative, if they do implement it on the NX, they could possibly release an extension to the NX that can allow for backwards compatibility if they don't want to charge the user up front for it.

Anyway, those are just some thoughts.

 

[LordRaptor]

As a reminder, here's that January 2013 explanation on what Nintendo's next-gen unified architectural strategy is and is not:

Unless something is lost in translation, that seems to point more towards a desktop and a handheld form factor release sharing a common architecture than - as some people seem to be suggesting - an x86 desktop and an ARM handheld

 

[Malus]

The nofusion guy who is contradicting this rumor and believes the WSJ to be incorrect has been verified by Reddit as someone who works in the industry.

 

[Glass Shark]

Nothing he has said so far is insightful or surprising. Looking forward to actual info about the device(s).

 

[Candescence]

I have no problem with a controller screen combo, I just can't see them supporting the Wii U gamepad at all.

Oh, I get that, I don't see Wii U gamepad support happening either, especially if they make a screen controller that's superior to it, and the Wii U pad is tailored to be tied to a Wii U system anyway.

 

[cyberheater]

The Wii U emulator you mentioned runs games far worse than the original even on high-end PCs. Even if its hit accidentally the correct framerate the experience is unstable and full of graphic errors and input lags.

Yes but a WiiU emulator developed by Nintendo wouldn't be like that would it. It would at least be as good as the Xbox 360 emulator on Xbox One.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Another day, another slew of contradictory NX rumors. However, I will make a few comments:

1. It seems that if the NX does end up using x86 architecture, then I can see the rumors of shared architecture between console and handheld not being true. Never believed those rumors anyway, but I can still see some cross-buy implementation similar to the PS4 and Vita.

"Shared architecture" wasn't a rumor. Look a few posts up from yours, it's literally a quote from Iwata.

 

[Otakumegane]

Really thought it would be arm.

Surprising if true

 

[DieH@rd]

X86 is good, finally keeping up with the times. If the NX is really nicely strong, Nintendo should just call it NES or SNES to drive home the "hardcore gamer" focus it will have.

So backwards compatibility is there? That's nice at least.

Only "ports of current games" are mentioned. Those are gen8 games from Ps4 and Xbone.

Old Nintendo systems are not mentioned, and for them Nintendo will need to craft specific emulators [or include old hardware inside for native reproduction].

 

[SneakyStephan]

Another day, another slew of contradictory NX rumors. However, I will make a few comments:

1. It seems that if the NX does end up using x86 architecture, then I can see the rumors of shared architecture between console and handheld not being true. Never believed those rumors anyway, but I can still see some cross-buy implementation similar to the PS4 and Vita.

.

And why not?

Amd have tablet level apus (jaguar,no I'm not being fascetious, they have like a 5w version of it) , intel have cherrytrail.

I don't see why they can't have an x86 handheld.

 

[Mpl90]

The mod who verified him signed up to GAF, waiting to be approved.

It could be interesting to see Reddit v.s. GAF in terms of verification of insiders / sources.

Still, never believing the nofusion guy (not the one whose info was posted in the OP) since he says WSJ was mistaken XD

 

[Neoxon]

Nintendo's next home console and handheld will be separate, based on what they've been saying. They may share similar branding, but they'll be two different devices. You can't buy a console game and put it inside the handheld and expect it to work.

What will really happen is that the assets for Mario, Link, etc wouldn't have to be created twice to make a Smash Bros. for both the console and handheld. You wouldn't have to recreate assets to make both Super Mario 3D Land 2 and Super Mario Galaxy 3. You can simply use a lower resolution, lower fidelity asset for Mario for the handheld Smash, and a more higher resolution asset for Mario for the console Smash.

But then you'd run into the issue of efforts still being split between the console & handheld, resulting in software droughts similar to what the 3DS & the Wii U had to deal with. It won't be as much of an issue for games like Smash or Mario Kart, sure (especially if Nintendo does streamline their development engines). But you'd run into issues for developers like Intelligent Systems or Next Level Games who may have separate console & handheld projects. Stuff like this leads to the previously-mentioned software droughts that plagued Nintendo with this run of consoles. Iwata's goal of making their future platforms similar to iOS in terms of how games are shared between the two would solve the problem, while still allowing for console-exclusive games if said game is a bit too ambitious for the handheld.

 

[LuigiBlood]

"Shared architecture" wasn't a rumor. Look a few posts up from yours, it's literally a quote from Iwata.

I REALLY doubt by architecture he meant the CPU architecture so...

 

[Tatsumi Oga]

I can't imagine a world where a developer won't create games that can run on the PS4/XB1/NX install base in order to have a game that runs on a machine that will have a tiny fraction of the install base of those three systems.

I'm out of my depth in this thread as i know nothing about hardware or how it works.

But, i would say No. Not really. If true, The X1 and PS4 will still have the same games as the "4K"machines. They will not simply abandon an install bases of , last time i read, 55m users. I think people are reading too much into these .5 rumours.

That's very true as well. And yeah the .5 rumours, that's what they are at the end of the day. That's true. The 2x GPU stuff, who was that even that claims this?

 

[Pokemaniac]

So that X86 is good news? Being able to run ports or current gen games sounds good, however things are changing fast and if the PS4K stories are true, won't Ninty more or less be missing the boat again, so to speak?

Only in the sense that, if Nintendo is bothering to use x86, something about the chip must have been very appealing to them for them to want to go through the extra effort.

The idea that Nintendo needs x86 for easy portability is largely a myth.

Really? I heard Arm was closer to PowerPC than it was to x86 given that both are RISC.

It is, but with modern tools, that doesn't actually matter all that much (to application developers). 90% of architecture differences are dealt with by compilers now. The remaining 10% is mostly endian-ness shenanigans and some small targeted assembly to accelerate certain operations.

Only if they use a VM architecture, which would mean a significant overhead. That's usually not very good for a video game system, where you want every inch of performance available.

If we're talking about all the systems on the NX family being able to run the same code, another approach could be fat binaries, containing both ARM and x86 compiled code (See inital versions of OS X for an example). As long as the SDK / API is available on both, all the devs have to consider is the power envelop for each and scale accordingly.

The speed issues could be addressed by some combination of compiling code on the servers (for digital games) and doing Android Runtime-stlye compiling the code at install time (for physical games).

 

[diaspora]

Really thought it would be arm.

Surprising if true

Depends on how they "know" it's ARM. If they assume it's x86 because it's from AMD then it could be something K12 based.

 

[maxcriden]

It could be interesting to see Reddit v.s. GAF in terms of verification of insiders / sources.

Still, never believing the nofusion guy (not the one whose info was posted in the OP) since he says WSJ was mistaken XD

Is it really that hard to believe WSJ was mistaken? Sincerely asking. I don't want to believe nofusion, since his rumors are pessimistic. Just curious though.

 

[pronk420]

ARM assembler and PowerPC aren't that different, although not much of that matters if you aren't coding handwritten assembly. x86 is very different, but again it doesn't matter unless you are writing assembler.

Using bytecode would be a terrible idea (see android) because it means the compiler, or even worse interpreter, needs to live on the device.

Having different binaries for the handheld would seem a bit mad (but possible).

To encourage current gen ports I'm not sure x86 would be that big of an advantage, so long as it isn't something weird like the cell, and it has comparable power to PS4. I don't know if current ARM processors can do that.

 

[Neoxon]

And why not?

Amd have tablet level apus (jaguar,no I'm not being fascetious, they have like a 5w version of it) , intel have cherrytrail.

I don't see why they can't have an x86 handheld.

x86 by nature isn't exactly a power-efficient architecture. You can use it for laptops & (in some cases) tablets, sure. But trying to squeeze it into a small handheld will result in sacrifices on other fronts for the device to have a remotely decent battery life. A prime example of this can be seen with Asus' line of x86 phones. Not only were the costs subsidized by Intel, but they also had to tone down the brightness across the board to maintain a decent battery life.

 

[10k]

Give me 8GB of DDR4, 8 cores of A72's at 2.0Ghz on the same chip as a 2Tflop GPU (just slightly above PS4) for $350 or less. I'm good for the next seven years.

 

[EatinOlives]

Looks like reddit mod wants to work together with neogaf mods:

The NX will be out to consumers by the time his GAF account gets approved

 

[Mysterious]

But then you'd run into the issue of efforts still being split between the console & handheld, resulting in software droughts similar to what the 3DS & the Wii U had to deal with. It won't be as much of an issue for games like Smash or Mario Kart, sure (especially if Nintendo does streamline their development engines). But you'd run into issues for developers like Intelligent Systems or Next Level Games who may have separate console & handheld projects. Stuff like this leads to the previously-mentioned software droughts that plagued Nintendo with this run of consoles. Iwata's goal of making their future platforms similar to iOS in terms of how games are shared between the two would solve the problem, while still allowing for console-exclusive games if said game is a bit too ambitious for the handheld.

They're not going to make the exact same game that you buy once run on both. This may happen, but it'll be the exception, not the norm. Handheld and console user experiences are two completely different things.

Console = Big game, sit down for a while
Handheld = Smaller game, played in bite size chunks

You can see this again and again in all of their handheld and console releases.

This is also an incredibly stupid business decision as well.

You really have no idea what you're talking about, and like to use large technical jargon to make it sound like you do. I really don't know how "make software assets more transferable" translates to "make the exact same game for both" for you.

 

[cyberheater]

Give me 8GB of DDR4, 8 cores of A72's at 2.0Ghz on the same chip as a 2Tflop GPU (just slightly above PS4) for $350 or less. I'm good for the next seven years.

Even I would be happy with that. I hope a much better GPU though. Go Nintendo. Push that boat out.

 

[Mpl90]

The nofusion guy who is contradicting this rumor and believes the WSJ to be incorrect has been verified by Reddit as someone who works in the industry.

Yeah, it was among the top posts in the page linked a few pages ago. Again, though, I find difficult to believe that WSJ was mistaken about that report. Like, at all.

 

[-Horizon-]

Come on gaf mods, approve that reddit mod

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I REALLY doubt by architecture he meant the CPU architecture so...

Could be CPU architecture. Could be the content creation pipeline. Could be an internal engine or compiler. Who knows, but the idea is that some significant system that is currently drastically different between their consoles and handhelds will be integrated and shared with the NX devices

 

[diaspora]

Even I would be happy with that. I hope a much better GPU though. Go Nintendo. Push that boat out.

GPU was less of an issue than the CPU for the Wii U. I mean, the GPU obviously wasn't as good as the competition's but iirc it was the CPU that held back the development of third party engines on the system.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Is it really that hard to believe WSJ was mistaken? Sincerely asking. I don't want to believe nofusion, since his rumors are pessimistic. Just curious though.

A bit. Personally, between a random reddit guy (even a verified one), and the WSJ, I'd go for the WSJ every time. They usually don't print things unless they're confident in them.

 

[cyberheater]

Come on gaf mods, approve that reddit mod

Yep. Fast track that approval. I would be a good idea.

 

[MK_768]

Is it really that hard to believe WSJ was mistaken? Sincerely asking. I don't want to believe nofusion, since his rumors are pessimistic. Just curious though.

I'm pretty sure their sources tend to be at the corporate level.

 

[Malus]

Yeah, it was among the top posts in the page linked a few pages ago. Again, though, I find difficult to believe that WSJ was mistaken about that report. Like, at all.

It's tough to keep up with all of this, I just woke up lol.

 

[cyberheater]

GPU was less of an issue than the CPU for the Wii U. I mean, the GPU obviously wasn't as good as the competition's but iirc it was the CPU that held back the development of third party engines on the system.

Indeed it was but things should improve going to X86. I know it's pie in the sky but I'd love for Nintendo to have a quad core i5 in there. It would be glorious.

 

[maxcriden]

A bit. Personally, between a random reddit guy (even a verified one), and the WSJ, I'd go for the WSJ every time. They usually don't print things unless they're confident in them.

I'm pretty sure their sources tend to be at the corporate level.

That's heartening to hear. Thank you both.

 

[Nanashrew]

It's tough to keep up with all of this, I just woke up lol.

I only just woke up too.

I should probably finish Ace Attorney 2 though instead of more wild NX speculation.