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Seymour Hersh: Infighting among JCS and CIA and Obama's stance on Assad.

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params7

Banned
Didn't see a thread on it, the story broke about a week ago. It is Seymor Hersh, but some astounding claims nonetheless and I personally think the shoe seems to fit with the events as they've transpired in the Syria crisis. The source so far is only an anonymous ex-Joint Chief Of Staffs adviser.

Here's his writeup:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n01/seymour-m-hersh/military-to-military

I'll do my best to summarize:

Barack Obama’s repeated insistence that Bashar al-Assad must leave office – and that there are ‘moderate’ rebel groups in Syria capable of defeating him – has in recent years provoked quiet dissent, and even overt opposition, among some of the most senior officers on the Pentagon’s Joint Staff. Their criticism has focused on what they see as the administration’s fixation on Assad’s primary ally, Vladimir Putin. In their view, Obama is captive to Cold War thinking about Russia and China, and hasn’t adjusted his stance on Syria to the fact both countries share Washington’s anxiety about the spread of terrorism in and beyond Syria; like Washington, they believe that Islamic State must be stopped.




The military’s resistance dates back to the summer of 2013, when a highly classified assessment, put together by the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, then led by General Martin Dempsey, forecast that the fall of the Assad regime would lead to chaos and, potentially, to Syria’s takeover by jihadi extremists, much as was then happening in Libya.
A former senior adviser to the Joint Chiefs told me that the document was an ‘all-source’ appraisal, drawing on information from signals, satellite and human intelligence, and took a dim view of the Obama administration’s insistence on continuing to finance and arm the so-called moderate rebel groups. By then, the CIA had been conspiring for more than a year with allies in the UK, Saudi Arabia and Qatar to ship guns and goods – to be used for the overthrow of Assad – from Libya, via Turkey, into Syria. The new intelligence estimate singled out Turkey as a major impediment to Obama’s Syria policy. The document showed, the adviser said, ‘that what was started as a covert US programme to arm and support the moderate rebels fighting Assad had been co-opted by Turkey, and had morphed into an across-the-board technical, arms and logistical programme for all of the opposition, including Jabhat al-Nusra and Islamic State. The so-called moderates had evaporated and the Free Syrian Army was a rump group stationed at an airbase in Turkey.’ The assessment was bleak: there was no viable ‘moderate’ opposition to Assad, and the US was arming extremists.

Lieutenant General Michael Flynn, director of the DIA between 2012 and 2014, confirmed that his agency had sent a constant stream of classified warnings to the civilian leadership about the dire consequences of toppling Assad. The jihadists, he said, were in control of the opposition. Turkey wasn’t doing enough to stop the smuggling of foreign fighters and weapons across the border. ‘If the American public saw the intelligence we were producing daily, at the most sensitive level, they would go ballistic,’ Flynn told me. ‘We understood Isis’s long-term strategy and its campaign plans, and we also discussed the fact that Turkey was looking the other way when it came to the growth of the Islamic State inside Syria.’ The DIA’s reporting, he said, ‘got enormous pushback’ from the Obama administration. ‘I felt that they did not want to hear the truth.’

‘The Joint Chiefs believed that Assad should not be replaced by fundamentalists. The administration’s policy was contradictory. They wanted Assad to go but the opposition was dominated by extremists. So who was going to replace him? To say Assad’s got to go is fine, but if you follow that through – therefore anyone is better. It’s the “anybody else is better” issue that the JCS had with Obama’s policy.’ The Joint Chiefs felt that a direct challenge to Obama’s policy would have ‘had a zero chance of success’. So in the autumn of 2013 they decided to take steps against the extremists without going through political channels, by providing US intelligence to the militaries of other nations, on the understanding that it would be passed on to the Syrian army and used against the common enemy, Jabhat al-Nusra and Islamic State.

Hersh then talks on length on how the JCS passed on intelligence to Germany, Israel and Russia with the passive understanding the intelligence would be leaked to Assad's armed forces. Moving on:

State Department cables made public by WikiLeaks show that the Bush administration tried to destabilise Syria and that these efforts continued into the Obama years. In December 2006, William Roebuck, then in charge of the US embassy in Damascus, filed an analysis of the ‘vulnerabilities’ of the Assad government and listed methods ‘that will improve the likelihood’ of opportunities for destabilisation. He recommended that Washington work with Saudi Arabia and Egypt to increase sectarian tension and focus on publicising ‘Syrian efforts against extremist groups’ – dissident Kurds and radical Sunni factions – ‘in a way that suggests weakness, signs of instability, and uncontrolled blowback’; and that the ‘isolation of Syria’ should be encouraged through US support of the National Salvation Front, led by Abdul Halim Khaddam, a former Syrian vice president whose government-in-exile in Riyadh was sponsored by the Saudis and the Muslim Brotherhood. Another 2006 cable showed that the embassy had spent $5 million financing dissidents who ran as independent candidates for the People’s Assembly; the payments were kept up even after it became clear that Syrian intelligence knew what was going on. A 2010 cable warned that funding for a London-based television network run by a Syrian opposition group would be viewed by the Syrian government ‘as a covert and hostile gesture toward the regime’.

But there is also a parallel history of shadowy co-operation between Syria and the US during the same period. The two countries collaborated against al-Qaida, their common enemy. A longtime consultant to the Joint Special Operations Command said that, after 9/11, ‘Bashar was, for years, extremely helpful to us while, in my view, we were churlish in return, and clumsy in our use of the gold he gave us. That quiet co-operation continued among some elements, even after the [Bush administration’s] decision to vilify him.’ In 2002 Assad authorised Syrian intelligence to turn over hundreds of internal files on the activities of the Muslim Brotherhood in Syria and Germany. Later that year, Syrian intelligence foiled an attack by al-Qaida on the headquarters of the US Navy’s Fifth Fleet in Bahrain, and Assad agreed to provide the CIA with the name of a vital al-Qaida informant.

It was this history of co-operation that made it seem possible in 2013 that Damascus would agree to the new indirect intelligence-sharing arrangement with the US. The Joint Chiefs let it be known that in return the US would require four things: Assad must restrain Hizbullah from attacking Israel; he must renew the stalled negotiations with Israel to reach a settlement on the Golan Heights; he must agree to accept Russian and other outside military advisers; and he must commit to holding open elections after the war with a wide range of factions included.

‘The Syrians told us that Assad would not make a decision unilaterally – he needed to have support from his military and Alawite allies. Assad’s worry was that Israel would say yes and then not uphold its end of the bargain.’ A senior adviser to the Kremlin on Middle East affairs told me that in late 2012, after suffering a series of battlefield setbacks and military defections, Assad had approached Israel via a contact in Moscow and offered to reopen the talks on the Golan Heights. The Israelis had rejected the offer. ‘They said, “Assad is finished,”’ the Russian official told me. ‘“He’s close to the end.”’ He said the Turks had told Moscow the same thing.

Article then talks about how JCS underminded the CIA's efforts to ship arms to rebels knowing they were extremists. JCS apparently took control of the shipment and routed old, obsolete weapons instead:

‘We worked with Turks we trusted who were not loyal to Erdoğan,’ the adviser said, ‘and got them to ship the jihadists in Syria all the obsolete weapons in the arsenal, including M1 carbines that hadn’t been seen since the Korean War and lots of Soviet arms. It was a message Assad could understand: “We have the power to diminish a presidential policy in its tracks.”’

On CIA's failed campaign to train moderate rebels:

‘The CIA’s training camp was in Jordan and was controlled by a Syrian tribal group,’ the JCS adviser said. There was a suspicion that some of those who signed up for training were actually Syrian army regulars minus their uniforms. This had happened before, at the height of the Iraqi war, when hundreds of Shia militia members showed up at American training camps for new uniforms, weapons and a few days of training, and then disappeared into the desert. A separate training programme, set up by the Pentagon in Turkey, fared no better. The Pentagon acknowledged in September that only ‘four or five’ of its recruits were still battling Islamic State; a few days later 70 of them defected to Jabhat al-Nusra immediately after crossing the border into Syria.

In January 2014, despairing at the lack of progress, John Brennan, the director of the CIA, summoned American and Sunni Arab intelligence chiefs from throughout the Middle East to a secret meeting in Washington, with the aim of persuading Saudi Arabia to stop supporting extremist fighters in Syria. ‘The Saudis told us they were happy to listen,’ the JCS adviser said, ‘so everyone sat around in Washington to hear Brennan tell them that they had to get on board with the so-called moderates. His message was that if everyone in the region stopped supporting al-Nusra and Isis their ammunition and weapons would dry up, and the moderates would win out.’ Brennan’s message was ignored by the Saudis, the adviser said, who ‘went back home and increased their efforts with the extremists and asked us for more technical support. And we say OK, and so it turns out that we end up reinforcing the extremists.’

Going to skip the whole writeup about US-Russia's alliance being tested by Assad, and Putin being at odds with Obama while heavily backing Assad. Moving on:

In a speech on 22 November, Obama declared that the ‘principal targets’ of the Russian airstrikes ‘have been the moderate opposition’. It’s a line that the administration – along with most of the mainstream American media – has rarely strayed from. The Russians insist that they are targeting all rebel groups that threaten Syria’s stability – including Islamic State. The Kremlin adviser on the Middle East explained in an interview that the first round of Russian airstrikes was aimed at bolstering security around a Russian airbase in Latakia, an Alawite stronghold. The strategic goal, he said, has been to establish a jihadist-free corridor from Damascus to Latakia and the Russian naval base at Tartus and then to shift the focus of bombing gradually to the south and east, with a greater concentration of bombing missions over IS-held territory. Russian strikes on IS targets in and near Raqqa were reported as early as the beginning of October; in November there were further strikes on IS positions near the historic city of Palmyra and in Idlib province, a bitterly contested stronghold on the Turkish border.

Russian incursions into Turkish airspace began soon after Putin authorised the bombings, and the Russian air force deployed electronic jamming systems that interfered with Turkish radar. The message being sent to the Turkish air force, the JCS adviser said, was: ‘We’re going to fly our fighter planes where we want and when we want and jam your radar. Do not fuck with us. Putin was letting the Turks know what they were up against.’ Russia’s aggression led to Turkish complaints and Russian denials, along with more aggressive border patrolling by the Turkish air force. There were no significant incidents until 24 November, when two Turkish F-16 fighters, apparently acting under more aggressive rules of engagement, shot down a Russian Su-24M jet that had crossed into Turkish airspace for no more than 17 seconds.

Kremlin and Putin on the fighters that America says are moderates:

The Kremlin adviser on the Middle East, like the Joint Chiefs and the DIA, dismisses the ‘moderates’ who have Obama’s support, seeing them as extremist Islamist groups that fight alongside Jabhat al-Nusra and IS (‘There’s no need to play with words and split terrorists into moderate and not moderate,’ Putin said in a speech on 22 October). The American generals see them as exhausted militias that have been forced to make an accommodation with Jabhat al-Nusra or IS in order to survive. At the end of 2014, Jürgen Todenhöfer, a German journalist who was allowed to spend ten days touring IS-held territory in Iraq and Syria, told CNN that the IS leadership ‘are all laughing about the Free Syrian Army. They don’t take them for serious. They say: “The best arms sellers we have are the FSA. If they get a good weapon, they sell it to us.” They didn’t take them for serious. They take for serious Assad. They take for serious, of course, the bombs. But they fear nothing, and FSA doesn’t play a role.’

On accusations of American MSM scrambling for anti-Putin hit pieces:

Putin’s bombing campaign provoked a series of anti-Russia articles in the American press. On 25 October, the New York Times reported, citing Obama administration officials, that Russian submarines and spy ships were ‘aggressively’ operating near the undersea cables that carry much of the world’s internet traffic – although, as the article went on to acknowledge, there was ‘no evidence yet’ of any Russian attempt actually to interfere with that traffic. Ten days earlier the Times published a summary of Russian intrusions into its former Soviet satellite republics, and described the Russian bombing in Syria as being ‘in some respects a return to the ambitious military moves of the Soviet past’. The report did not note that the Assad administration had invited Russia to intervene, nor did it mention the US bombing raids inside Syria that had been underway since the previous September, without Syria’s approval.

The four core elements of Obama’s Syria policy remain intact today: an insistence that Assad must go; that no anti-IS coalition with Russia is possible; that Turkey is a steadfast ally in the war against terrorism; and that there really are significant moderate opposition forces for the US to support.

Hersh in the following paragraphs talks about China investing in rebuilding Syria and fighting extremists trying to establish the Islamist Uighur in Xinjiang and taking a generally pro-Assad stance in cooperating with Russia.

More in radicalism within JCS:

General Dempsey and his colleagues on the Joint Chiefs of Staff kept their dissent out of bureaucratic channels, and survived in office. General Michael Flynn did not. ‘Flynn incurred the wrath of the White House by insisting on telling the truth about Syria,’ said Patrick Lang, a retired army colonel who served for nearly a decade as the chief Middle East civilian intelligence officer for the DIA. ‘He thought truth was the best thing and they shoved him out. He wouldn’t shut up.’ Flynn told me his problems went beyond Syria. ‘I was shaking things up at the DIA – and not just moving deckchairs on the Titanic. It was radical reform. I felt that the civilian leadership did not want to hear the truth. I suffered for it, but I’m OK with that.’ In a recent interview in Der Spiegel, Flynn was blunt about Russia’s entry into the Syrian war: ‘We have to work constructively with Russia. Whether we like it or not, Russia made a decision to be there and to act militarily. They are there, and this has dramatically changed the dynamic. So you can’t say Russia is bad; they have to go home. It’s not going to happen. Get real.’

Cleaning the unit up, Obama now has more cooperative units:

The military’s indirect pathway to Assad disappeared with Dempsey’s retirement in September. His replacement as chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Joseph Dunford, testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee in July, two months before assuming office. ‘If you want to talk about a nation that could pose an existential threat to the United States, I’d have to point to Russia,’ Dunford said. ‘If you look at their behaviour, it’s nothing short of alarming.’ In October, as chairman, Dunford dismissed the Russian bombing efforts in Syria, telling the same committee that Russia ‘is not fighting’ IS. He added that America must ‘work with Turkish partners to secure the northern border of Syria’ and ‘do all we can to enable vetted Syrian opposition forces’ – i.e. the ‘moderates’ – to fight the extremists.

Obama now has a more compliant Pentagon. There will be no more indirect challenges from the military leadership to his policy of disdain for Assad and support for Erdoğan.
 

Lonely1

Unconfirmed Member
Very interesting read, thanks for sharing. Im on the opinion that there's no viable moderate opposition in Syria, but that's mostly based on historical precedent.

What's Hilary position on this?
 

Davilmar

Member
Very interesting read, thanks for sharing. Im on the opinion that there's no viable moderate opposition in Syria, but that's mostly based on historical precedent.

What's Hilary position on this?

Correct me if I am wrong, but Hillary was pushing for a more hands-on response to Syria. That included arming what she considered the Syria rebels on the ground and being more forceful to Assad. I highly doubt that would have changed anything, but that's her position.
 

params7

Banned
Correct me if I am wrong, but Hillary was pushing for a more hands-on response to Syria. That included arming what she considered the Syria rebels on the ground and being more forceful to Assad. I highly doubt that would have changed anything, but that's her position.

Yep. If she were in control I'm pretty sure Assad would have been Gaddafi'd by now.
 

antonz

Member
Have a hard time taking anything said serious when he tries to claim that Obama has a cold war style obsession with Russia. Many of the US Governments leading Russian experts etc. have quit because of the complete opposite feeling like the US doesn't pay enough attention to Putin and Russia.
 
He (and Hillary) really learned absolutely nothing from Libya. Embarrassing.

I like Obama overall but his botched foreign policy is easily the biggest stain on his legacy.
 
...and Iraq.

Obama never supported the war and I always gave Hillary a pass for her vote considering the Bush admin lied to the whole country, but there's no excuse for them pursuing the same strategy that turned Libya into a failed state and a breeding ground for terrorists.
 
The same guy who said the story of Bin Laden raid was fabricated?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh#Killing_of_Osama_bin_Laden

I don't recall him saying fabricated, but rather that presented facts and narratives don't add up. Which is kind of what you would expect from a political and military event. Framing the narrative is their job after all.

also, he's a Pulitzer prize winner (among others), so he's not without investigative journalism credit. The real issue is that nobody else bothered trying to get the real story after that.
edit: and I know I gain nothing (or this thread) from responding to a fallacious comment, but I thought it was worth it this time.
 

Mii

Banned
The CIA has to be one of the worst government agencies ever created. They have seriously botched huge historical events for decades now. I have wondered how much is it the agency itself or the presidencies during each time that have been more at fault, but considering how consistently terrible they have been, the agency must be responsible for some of it.

DIA sounds solid. Without Flynn's time in the administration I fear just how much worse Syria would be. Moderate rebels is the most ridiculous claim made since the lead up to the Iraq war.
 

rex

Member
As long as the US continues to play great game politics in the Middle East and fixate on Iran common sense anti terrorism policies will always come second to the fixation on undermining Iran and weakening their allies.

And the most common sense anti terrorism policy there is is to not make things worse, say, by overthrowing dictators and flooding the area with weapons that, at a minimum, the administration knows will wind up in the hands of jihadists and terrorists, whether intended or not

US policy in the middle east is bipartisan madness.
 

funkypie

Banned
Not Obamas finest hour. How could they not see the obvious after what happened in Libya. Hell even Libya was fucking obvious after Iraq.
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
The same guy who said the story of Bin Laden raid was fabricated?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh#Killing_of_Osama_bin_Laden

Have a hard time taking anything said serious when he tries to claim that Obama has a cold war style obsession with Russia. Many of the US Governments leading Russian experts etc. have quit because of the complete opposite feeling like the US doesn't pay enough attention to Putin and Russia.

He must've made up those direct quotes from American officials, amirite?

*rolls eyes*
 
Obama's biggest fuck up in office and he's only making it worse by insisting Assad must go without addressing the fact there is literally fucking nobody trustworthy to take his place and ensure the country doesn't become another Libya.
 
I remember reading this a few days ago and figuring some stuff is kinda wrong or don't make sense.
First being which is that the pentagon would by pass the the president to aid the Syrian government doesn't make much sense has it would probably be borderline treasonous and there would be a big deal about it.

The general was for arming the rebels further.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-syria-idUSBRE9190CP20130210


Also here's a vox article explaining why this might be wrong.

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/21/10634002/seymour-hersh-syria-joint-chiefs
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/08/u...-to-senate-panel-on-benghazi-attack.html?_r=0



He must've made up those direct quotes from American officials, amirite?

*rolls eyes*

Does he have any evidence besides " A former senior adviser to the Joint Chiefs told me" or you for that matter?


There were divisions in the officials about dealing with ISIS; but it was mostly either dealing with ISIS first or that something most be dealt with Assad because they think he is the reason why Syria is such in a mess. Lastly, saying that Obama has a cold war mentality is fucking bullshit.


This is what most likely happened to me http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-pursued-secret-contacts-with-assad-regime-for-years-1450917657
The Obama administration pursued secret communications with elements of Syria’s regime over several years in a failed attempt to limit violence and get President Bashar al-Assad to relinquish power, according to U.S. and Arab officials.

Early on, the U.S. looked for cracks in the regime it could exploit to encourage a military coup, but found few.

The efforts reflect how President Barack Obama’s administration has grappled to understand and interact with an opaque Middle East dictatorship run for 45 years by the Assad family.

Unlike the secret White House back channel to Iran, however, the Syria effort never gained momentum and communication was limited. This account is based on interviews with more than two dozen people, including current and former U.S. officials, Arab officials and diplomats. Most of these contacts haven’t been previously reported.

U.S. officials said communications with the regime came in fits and starts and were focused on specific issues. At times, senior officials spoke directly to each other and at others, they sent messages through intermediaries such as Mr. Assad’s main allies Russia and Iran.

Mr. Assad tried at different times to reach out to the administration to say the U.S. should unite with him to fight terrorism.
 

Nivash

Member
Obama's biggest fuck up in office and he's only making it worse by insisting Assad must go without addressing the fact there is literally fucking nobody trustworthy to take his place and ensure the country doesn't become another Libya.

Which is why Syria is fucked long-term because Assad isn't a viable option for Syria either. He ignited the civil war through his heavy handed rule and has spent it killing and torturing his own people. Thinking that we can get back to status quo with Assad at the helm is ludicrous, as long as he stays there will be resistance and insurgency.
 

params7

Banned
Avinash: That Vox article almost reads like a damage control piece. I think it came out the same day this report did. I'm reading into the other stuff though.

Which is why Syria is fucked long-term because Assad isn't a viable option for Syria either. He ignited the civil war through his heavy handed rule and has spent it killing and torturing his own people. Thinking that we can get back to status quo with Assad at the helm is ludicrous, as long as he stays there will be resistance and insurgency.

If Assad isn't, then what is? Muslim Brotherhood? ISIS? U.S. occupation? Saudi funded Islamist state?
 

Nivash

Member
Avinash: That Vox article almost reads like a damage control piece. I think it came out the same day this report did. I'm reading into the other stuff though.



If Assad isn't, then what is? Muslim Brotherhood? ISIS? U.S. occupation? Saudi funded Islamist state?

That's my point. There's nothing left. Syria is fucked and the best we can do is give sanctuary to the people trying to escape it. The only thing I can imagine could possibly ever work is a global, UN-led intervention spearheaded by regional powers ranging from Turkey to Iran which would cooperate to invade, impose order and oversee free elections. But that's impossible for more reasons than I can mention and so ludicrously naive that I'm almost laughing at myself for even mentioning it.

Barring that, all outcomes are disasters. Moderate rebels, if there are any, can't win. Al-Nusra and the other Al-Qaida aligned factions would impose a theocratic dictatorship and become a haven for terrorists. Ditto for ISIS. As far as Assad goes, he's not an option because the civil war won't end as long as he's still in charge and Syria will probable devolve into something more similar to Somalia than Libya.

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/8/9872118/isis-america
 

rex

Member
That's my point. There's nothing left. Syria is fucked and the best we can do is give sanctuary to the people trying to escape it. The only thing I can imagine could possibly ever work is a global, UN-led intervention spearheaded by regional powers ranging from Turkey to Iran which would cooperate to invade, impose order and oversee free elections. But that's impossible for more reasons than I can mention and so ludicrously naive that I'm almost laughing at myself for even mentioning it.

Barring that, all outcomes are disasters. Moderate rebels, if there are any, can't win. Al-Nusra and the other Al-Qaida aligned factions would impose a theocratic dictatorship and become a haven for terrorists. Ditto for ISIS. As far as Assad goes, he's not an option because the civil war won't end as long as he's still in charge and Syria will probable devolve into something more similar to Somalia than Libya.

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/8/9872118/isis-america

I think the case for being involved in the Middle East from a national security standpoint is very weak, and the US presence there is mostly counterproductive, but let's say that the US does in fact have to have a say in the outcomes of all these wars.

Wouldn't it be nice if the President or if he's not going to do it if someone else would bring up the pitfalls that you just did. Maybe it could actually serve as the starting point for a discussion about what we ought to be doing.

Instead the administration focuses on the impossibility of Assad staying in office to the exclusion of everything else. It's as if they're blind to every other danger.

I suspect that the reason is that everything else is secondary to the removal of Assad. And they can justify it all they want by saying Assad can't play a role going forward. True or not true, that's an after the fact justification for the policy they want to implement.

As I said above it seems like obsession with Iran and its proxies is what's animating this. It can't be a legitimate concern for how Syria is governed in the future, because I've seen no evidence that the president is operating in a way that someone would if they had read your horrifying list of possibilities.
 
Avinash: That Vox article almost reads like a damage control piece. I think it came out the same day this report did. I'm reading into the other stuff though.



If Assad isn't, then what is? Muslim Brotherhood? ISIS? U.S. occupation? Saudi funded Islamist state?

You be better at explaining as to why it is dismissed as damage control and what is said in the article is remotely wrong. I already point out to why Seymour is wrong in his story or that it is faulty. One including that it will be a big fucking deal that the freaking pentagon of all places is undercutting their commander-in-chief and president by assisting their rival in such a way and helping a government that allegedly to helped terrorist groups in the Iraq war and another including that Dempsey wanted to arm the rebels further and wanted Assad gone.

So what would be wrong?

The CIA was approached by a representative from the Joint Chiefs with a suggestion: there were far less costly weapons available in Turkish arsenals that could reach the Syrian rebels within days, and without a boat ride.’ But it wasn’t only the CIA that benefited. ‘We worked with Turks we trusted who were not loyal to Erdoğan,’ the adviser said, ‘and got them to ship the jihadists in Syria all the obsolete weapons in the arsenal, including M1 carbines that hadn’t been seen since the Korean War and lots of Soviet arms. It was a message Assad could understand: “We have the power to diminish a presidential policy in its tracks.”’

The flow of US intelligence to the Syrian army, and the downgrading of the quality of the arms being supplied to the rebels, came at a critical juncture.
This is related to this.
In summer 2013 the Joint Chiefs tricked the CIA into shipping obsolete weapons to Syrian rebels. Hersh says this was intended as a show of good faith to Assad, to convince him to accept their offer.
Firstly, Syria has a bunch of AKs and a haul of other soviet to modern based weaponry, why would the rebels be even using m1s ? The rebels aren't fucking stupid to go ahead to receive m1 carbines when they are other suppliers like Saudi Arabia and other Gulf nations, plus how would the you trick CIA into supplying rebels with M1 carbines? Lol. The CIA have been giving the rebels TOW missiles and that has been the only large number of American made weapons that the rebels have been using against the government. Additionally the rebels captured a bunch of arms from the government they don't need m1 carbines.

The Joint Chiefs also discovered that viable moderate Syrian rebels did not exist and that the opposition consisted nearly uniformly of extremists.
A bullshit claim that he has very little evidence on. One being besides the former senior anonymous dude claiming so he has no evidence that the Join chiefs even said that. The only thing about that is the DIA document saying that jihadists/i were a major force in the opposition to which they are. The "moderates" certainty do exist and the CIA has not supplied ISIS or AQI as their is very little evidence besides Nursa and ISIS firing a few tow missiles. The US has been supporting the Southern Front that does not try to fight with Nursa, the SDF, and a bunch of other rebel groups.

These are only some the things that is wrong with Seymour's article( another being having negotiations with Hezbollah to stop attacking Israel which is really funny thing to claim) that provided one source and nothing else. The only reason a good chunk of people would go ahead and believe most of this things is that they already have huge suspicion of the US from the get-go even if the evidence isn't there in the article.
 
Obama never supported the war and I always gave Hillary a pass for her vote considering the Bush admin lied to the whole country, but there's no excuse for them pursuing the same strategy that turned Libya into a failed state and a breeding ground for terrorists.

Oh I know (and agree with your general point). But I mean, there are quotes like this in the article:

The military’s resistance dates back to the summer of 2013, when a highly classified assessment, put together by the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, then led by General Martin Dempsey, forecast that the fall of the Assad regime would lead to chaos and, potentially, to Syria’s takeover by jihadi extremists, much as was then happening in Libya.
Happening in Libya... and Iraq. I think the omission of Iraq as an example of Regime-Change-Gone-Wrong is rather glaring.
 

Blader

Member
Why are people bringing up Iraq as a comparable example? The problem with Iraq's descent into chaos was not just removing Saddam, it was purging out the Baath party and disbanding the military completely indiscriminately.
 

Chichikov

Member
The CIA has to be one of the worst government agencies ever created. They have seriously botched huge historical events for decades now. I have wondered how much is it the agency itself or the presidencies during each time that have been more at fault, but considering how consistently terrible they have been, the agency must be responsible for some of it.
This.
I obviously have no way of confirming this story, but historically, the CIA is a failed agency and a national embarrassment which repeatedly undermined American interests. It had consistently failed decision makers by being unable to provide the necessary intel to them, it hurt America standings in large parts of the world and it got the the US into a bunch of useless wars that cost a whole lot of lives (and that's before we get into the downright criminal and treasonous shit they did).

That agency need to be burned down and rebuilt from pretty much scratch (personally I would dissolve it and move its operational capabilities to the military and its intelligence gathering to the state department, but that's just me).
 

pa22word

Member
This.
I obviously have no way of confirming this story, but historically, the CIA is a failed agency and a national embarrassment which repeatedly undermined American interests..


Eh, I wouldn't go that far.

It must be said that typically the only time we ever hear about the CIA in the mainstream is when they fuck up, and due to the nature of classified info we typically don't hear about their successes until multiple decades after the fact, if at all. This tends to skew public opinion against them wildly.

I definitely think they've had their own lion share of blunders, don't get me wrong, but to say they are a failed agency and a national embarrassment is a little beyond the pale, imo.
 

Chichikov

Member
Eh, I wouldn't go that far.

It must be said that typically the only time we ever hear about the CIA in the mainstream is when they fuck up, and due to the nature of classified info we typically don't hear about their successes until multiple decades after the fact, if at all. This tends to skew public opinion against them wildly.

I definitely think they've had their own lion share of blunders, don't get me wrong, but to say they are a failed agency and a national embarrassment is a little beyond the pale, imo.
Most of the stuff from the cold war is declassified, and what minor successes they had very much publicized and celebrated, there's just not a whole lot of that stuff (and a lot of what was celebrated at the time ended up being terrible for the US).
I mean yeah, it is possible that the current CIA is amazingly successful and we'll only know about it in the future, but given the track record of the agency (which again, most of its history is declassified) I see no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Read Legacy of Ashes, it's a great book and it's all based on attributed interviews and declassied documents - the CIA had failed the American people, repeatdly and consistently.
 
Have a hard time taking anything said serious when he tries to claim that Obama has a cold war style obsession with Russia. Many of the US Governments leading Russian experts etc. have quit because of the complete opposite feeling like the US doesn't pay enough attention to Putin and Russia.
He's mistakenly attributing that position to Obama specifically when it should be several people in his administration and in many parts of government.
The same guy who said the story of Bin Laden raid was fabricated?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh#Killing_of_Osama_bin_Laden
Yes, he didn't just take the official story as unbridled truth like the stenographers posing as journalists always do. He did some digging.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Hersh has the distinction of writing the only articles originally published in the London Review of Books that get picked up by Infowars.
 
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