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[jigglet]

The blackmarket for organs only exists because there is no supply. It just seems incredibly selfish not to be an organ donor and I don't understand why it isn't opt-out by default, instead of the other way around. I had this discussion once with my mum and she said she didn't feel comfortable with someone else having her organs if she died. I couldn't help but think; seriously? That slight uncomfortable feeling is all you have to make your case?

I'm a huge believer in the rights of the individual and the freedoms that democratic countries bring with it, but the organs of a dead person is where I draw the line. I'm not advocating that the state should be able to do whatever it wants with your body once your dead...like they can't parade your cadaver around a lecture theatre for medical students without your explicit approval. I'm talking about just your organs.

Of course some people can't be donors for medical reasons (e.g. if you have a disease) but that's beside the point.

What are your thoughts on this? Should organ donors get priority if they are in need of an organ themselves?

 

[Slayer-33]

How it would work would be tricky, I agree in principle. And yeah, my drivers license has me listed as an organ donor opt in. I think it got me out of a ticket once.

Just like opting for an auto trial by judge (should be a thing IMO) only should allow you to remove yourself from EVER serving as a juror ever.

 

[jigglet]

How it would work would be tricky, I agree in principle.

Just like opting for an auto trial by judge only should allow you to remove yourself from EVER serving as a juror ever.

I would start with baby steps and making it so being an organ donor is an opt-in process by default, not the other way around.

Then put (a very simple) process in place to opt-out. Many people wouldn't be bothered opting out so immediately you would boost the supply by millions.

If that doesn't work, then you think about a much harsher solution (like my suggestion to give priority to people who have opted-in).

 

[Kenpachii]

That's what happened in netherlands.

U are a organ donor unless u specifically opt out of it. It got changed a few years ago i think.

I opted out, if i ever need a organ to survive i expect to be served just as everybody else. That's where i pay healthcare for no priority lists should be allowed.

 

[jigglet]

That's what happened in netherlands.

U are a organ donor unless u specifically opt out of it. It got changed a few years ago i think.

I opted out, if i ever need a organ to survive i expect to be served just as everybody else. That's where i pay healthcare for no priority lists should be allowed.

Yeah it blows my mind that isn't the standard world wide.

 

[Kenpachii]

Yeah it blows my mind that isn't the standard world wide.

The issue is for many country's is probably trust. And this is also the exact reason why i opted out.

What prevents a doctor from ripped you apart if you are on the edge of death instead of saving you when 3 kids could survive with your organs. What prevents for example a hospital from culling you because u are a gold mine for them by selling organs towards other country's.

What happens when people die off, and u get massive amounts of organs to the point u have to many? organ market.

I could see where doctors are ordered to do the minimal effort in order to get as much profits going for the higher up management.

 

[jigglet]

What prevents a doctor from ripped you apart if you are on the edge of death instead of saving you when 3 kids could survive with your organs.

Some very good points, here's my response. For this one, if you have say 80% of the population opt-in then you will have way, way more supply than you would ever need. There would be no incentive for doctors to do this.

What prevents for example a hospital from culling you because u are a gold mine for them by selling organs towards other country's. What happens when people die off, and u get massive amounts of organs to the point u have to many? organ market.

Place extremely heavy penalties on exporting. Organs stay within the country so there is no demand driver to create "surplus" stock.

 

[Kenpachii]

Some very good points, here's my response. For this one, if you have say 80% of the population opt-in then you will have way, way more supply than you would ever need. There would be no incentive for doctors to do this.



Place extremely heavy penalties on exporting. Organs stay within the country so there is no demand driver to create "surplus" stock.

We saw with covid how hospitals abused covid to gain more money. Everything from the tiniest shit was considered a covid related death even while it wasn't. Why? money and funding.
I saw hospitals go bankrupt because top management found it funny to make a company that they owned that they suddently started to buy medicine from for 10x the price which basically was providing them for millions a year in salary. They had absolute no problems blowing the hospital up whenever they didn't got there money out of it which resulted in many health related problems for many people for many months. Zero fucks where given that day.

Then u also hit moral problems.

What if tomorrow, Biden heart gives up and is dropped in a hospital? and there is some guy that's 30 years old, really doesn't have much going for him, isn't special and is in the hospital because of a incident that is easy to fix up? yea he suddenly dies now because there you go.

Then about saturating your own country with organs. This will never happen when u live in a world of many country's. If tomorrow Germany says look we need hearts we give you 1 million for each of them, and we have 10k hearts in total but we need 8k for our own population, u honestly think they won't sell off the majority of those when it makes them massive bank? because putting it into a dutch citizen would only give you 30k? sorry mate, we simple don't have enough hearts this year, sucks to be you bye.

U see this with university's for example in Netherlands. u barely find a dutch person in it. Why? they get 6k funding each year for foreign students. there is straight up zero fucking reason to take anything but the absolute bare minimum legally required to still give the idea that u are in the Netherlands lul. When i attended, the main complain from foreign student was, that they straight up saw no dutch people and lessons where all given in english rofl.

The only way organ harvesting like this works, is when every country can saturate there own population. And frankly that will never happen because for many country's its also a moral dilemma that goes far deeper.

hell the whole law was accepted in my country because a few people in key vote positions "missed the vote that would vote against it" to not fear backslash from its voter base "stuck in traffic excuse, yea not even kidding you". Funny enough those people also suddenly had a massive money injection in there personal life which resulted in them dissapearing entirely from the polical view never to be seen again.

And this is in a country where trust in these type of people is all time high.

 

[McCheese]

No, and personally I think opt-out organ donation is unethical in countries that have privatised healthcare. It's an inheritance tax on your body.

 

[INC]

You wouldnt want any of my organs

 

[Birdo]

I pay my taxes. The NHS owe me an organ, no matter what.

 

[p_xavier]

I have major death anxiety but donating or receiving an organ is a no-no for me.

Spoiler

Besides donating and retrieving my penis.

 

[Paasei]

No, it's your choice to donate, nobody is forcing you to. If you only donate because you want to be first you're doing it for the wrong reason.

People already pay a lot for healthcare, that should be enough. Especially now that it has been privatised since 15 years ago?

 

[gela94]

Well for me the fact that you or your body has to be alive to be able to donate your organs is a big fucking no. We don't really know whats going on when somebody is braindead. And who is not to say that they would let somebody die because someone more important, rich or useful needs something. It's all a bit too iffy for me.

 

[Cravis]

Well for me the fact that you or your body has to be alive to be able to donate your organs is a big fucking no. We don't really know whats going on when somebody is braindead. And who is not to say that they would let somebody die because someone more important, rich or useful needs something. It's all a bit too iffy for me.

Unless the doctors/paramedics trying to save you were rummaging through your wallet they wouldn’t know whether you’re an organ donor or not. If they were doing that when they were supposed to be saving your life then we’ve got bigger problems lol.

 

[GamingKaiju]

Good idea but impossible to implement. In the U.K. if you have certain health conditions then you aren’t able to give blood or donate organs incase the condition gets transferred over. So if I needed a kidney transplant but got rejected because I have MS and a heavy drinker got it instead I would be pissed.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Mandatory organ donation should never be done. If someone wants to sign off donating then that's their choice.

Forcing organ donation is basically body mutilation. Just because someone is dead doesn't mean its a free for all to obliterate someone's carcass for harvesting.

Sorry family members! Your dad is dead and you cant see him yet. He's in the operating room and we're emptying his innards. Don't worry, he'll look great at the wake and funeral. We'll stuff his insides so they dont look caved in.

 

[Konnor]

Make it opt out like it is in some countries and put the people opting out in a lower priority list. If you want to be a douche you should suffer the consequences.

 

[DeepBreath87]

There are a ton of misconceptions about organ donation. Elderly people aren’t candidates, generally speaking. Their organs are usually shot when they die. The only people that are really good organ donor patients are relatively young, otherwise healthy people, who die suddenly via a trauma (preferably head injury only) or drug OD were they are brain dead or sudden cardiac arrest which results in severe anoxic brain injury but not death.

The organs need to be healthy. Sick and old people die when their organs fail, generally. So they aren’t going to be suitable for donation.

 

[jason10mm]

In most states is doesn't matter if you are an organ donor or not, the hospital notifies an organ procurement agency for ANY possible organ donor and that agency discusses organ harvesting with the family. So if you want (or don't want) your organs to be harvested, discuss this with your next of kin because they are the ones making this decision.

Organs are not plug and play. They need to be matched, sometimes very carefully so. Age, size, blood type, HLA, even disease state. So the idea that Biden could suddenly need a heart and some random teen thug who happens to be in a hospital in the area gets euthanized is totally ludicrious.

More likely would be a captive population that can have all their metrics pre-screened. Like a prison.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

The issue is for many country's is probably trust. And this is also the exact reason why i opted out.

What prevents a doctor from ripped you apart if you are on the edge of death instead of saving you when 3 kids could survive with your organs. What prevents for example a hospital from culling you because u are a gold mine for them by selling organs towards other country's.

What happens when people die off, and u get massive amounts of organs to the point u have to many? organ market.

I could see where doctors are ordered to do the minimal effort in order to get as much profits going for the higher up management.

You're right, opting out of organ donation will prevent this.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Scientists have a chance to grow organs which is so cool thinking about it.

 

[Kenpachii]

You're right, opting out of organ donation will prevent this.

Its simple to protect myself.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

Its simple to protect myself.

I think if you're worried about people murdering you for your organs, ticking the "opt out" box on an organ donation card is not going to protect you.

 

[Kenpachii]

I think if you're worried about people murdering you for your organs, ticking the "opt out" box on an organ donation card is not going to protect you.

That's not what i say. Should probably read before you react.

 

[FreedomOfSpeech]

Non-donors should get to the end of the list, since obviously, they are against donating organs ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[6502]

No, health care should be provided free at the point of use regardless of creed or beliefs etc. There should be no privilege lane because of class, wealth or for those deemed conforming to the health boards ethical standards (in this case against hypocrisy) because it is the thin end of the wedge.

Instead we should have presumed consent and invest heavily in organ replacement tech (mechanical hearts, cloned kidneys etc) to avoid the need for donors down the line.

 

[Tschumi]

I fully intend to give any of my organs which function to science.

I think organ waiting lists should be done on a case of severity and wait time, not if the person suffering needs an organ or not, I think waiting lists are fair.

But yeah I definitely agree with u on donation.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I disagree with mandatory organ donation.

But for sake of policy, a reasonable blanket solution would be:

Capitalist economies: No mandatory donation. Priority goes to donor card signers. If it's more of an every man for himself society, then I guess an argument can be made if you contribute (sign the card), you get first dibs.

Universal healthcare economies: No mandatory donation. Priority goes to need first and if that means a non-donor gets it then they get it. You cant cherry pick and have universal healthcare with everyone paying higher taxes for the greater good of society, but when it comes to organ donation suddenly say "me first because I signed the card". That would be like me saying I get put near the front of the line for healthcare because I make good money and pay more taxes than the average worker. So if I pay more, I get more faster.

 

[xrnzaaas]

No, why? Being an organ donor is doing a good deed and you shouldn't expect anything special in return.

 

[HoodWinked]

I think idealistically it would make sense that donors would get preferential priority but there's no way to really make it work since anyone that needs an organ would change thier status. It would just be cheated out of it's intention.

But the current method they use is about as good as you can get that balances the ethical, moral and providing the most benefit per organ. This is something humanity has had to deal with for decades so the criteria had been refined and honed to what it is now.

Time stamped to the formula:

 

[keraj37]

If they are donors they can donate organs to themselves, no?

 

[Mihos]

They will never find my body

 

[nightmare-slain]

my country is opt out. i don't care what happens to my body when i die it's just gonna get burnt. if there is any part of me that can help someone out then they are free to have it before it gets set on fire.

i think everyone should be treated equally if they need a new organ. if my organs go to someone who isn't registered to donate then it won't bother me. if it helps them out then that's the most important thing.

If they are donors they can donate organs to themselves, no?

 

[jason10mm]

Some of you guys would apparently be shocked to find out that if you donate a kidney then yes, you DO go to the front of the line should you need a replacement kidney yourself. The machine takes care of its own. Plus it's common sense as the donor now only has 1 kidney which tends to exacerbate kidney failure problems.

 

[TDiddyLive]

Unless the doctors/paramedics trying to save you were rummaging through your wallet they wouldn’t know whether you’re an organ donor or not. If they were doing that when they were supposed to be saving your life then we’ve got bigger problems lol.

Paramedics and hospitals always go through a persons wallet. They need to identify the person, which on an ID would show if they are a donor or not, and get their medical insurance card if available.

 

[Cravis]

Paramedics and hospitals always go through a persons wallet. They need to identify the person, which on an ID would show if they are a donor or not, and get their medical insurance card if available.

When you’re in the critical moments of a life or death situation, where every second counts, and they are trying to save a life they would not.

Once stabilized, of course they would look for ID and all that.

I was referring more to the outrageous fear that in a life or death situation the person saving you would look for that donor card first to determine how far they were willing to go to save you.

 

[p_xavier]

Yes, I'm not an organ donor myself and my supposedly selfishness should go both ways.

 

[NickFire]

I'd say give children priority above all else. After children are taken care of it seems fair enough to let participants benefit first.

 

[oagboghi2]

The issue is for many country's is probably trust. And this is also the exact reason why i opted out.

What prevents a doctor from ripped you apart if you are on the edge of death instead of saving you when 3 kids could survive with your organs. What prevents for example a hospital from culling you because u are a gold mine for them by selling organs towards other country's.

What happens when people die off, and u get massive amounts of organs to the point u have to many? organ market.

I could see where doctors are ordered to do the minimal effort in order to get as much profits going for the higher up management.

Organs taken out of a body need to transplanted immediately. The idea that hospitals will stockpile them for profit is laughable.

 

[Kenpachii]

Organs taken out of a body need to transplanted immediately. The idea that hospitals will stockpile them for profit is laughable.

Maybe u should look at the waiting lists of people that need organs in other country's. What prevents a hospital from not moving patience or pushing patience in before they even rip you apart or keep you on life support until its time, or simple sell it to private clinics that operate right next towards the hospital.

Sorry i have no faith in any of those people to play it fair rather then max profits. Hell western people fly to china to get replacement organs that they can't get in the west and people in africa get cut up for the Chinese market.

U think a country in the EU isn't able to sell organs to other country's right next towards it? or make a market the next day that sells organs?.

 

[oagboghi2]

I am on an ogans donor list waiting for a transplant. That isn't how it works.

Many organs fail after the original death almost immediately. In some cases, you have as low as 8 hours. They have to be tested and matched for blood compatibility against a waitlist.

I can't speak for China, but no hospital is going to pull hearts, lungs, kidney, etc etc out and leave them hanging around, eventually hoping to find a buyer. Once they are pulled out, they need to use them immediately.

Also, selling to private clinics? Do you think your local ER or urgent care is going to do organ transplants on a whim? It's a massive operation

 

[BigBooper]

No. There's lots of people who can't be organ donors. Might as well chuck them in the grave if this policy was popular.

 

[thefool]

Only children should be prioritized in health care.

 

[I_D]

Your mother's feeling isn't abnormal for a lot of people. The "body is a temple" mentality is quite strong in a lot of people. Then you add religion into the mix, and all sorts of taboos involving burials or cremations or desecrating the body, etc. and you have all kinds of people who do not want their organs to be tampered with. I don't, personally, consider any of those reasons to be adequate, but I understand some people's reluctance to change the current system.

I support the idea of an automatic-in, with a difficult opt-out. If you're special enough that your body can't be messed with when you're no longer using it, you ought to have a pretty darn good reason for it. There are some valid reasons to not use a person's organs, though; like radiation, or disease, etc.
An easy opt-out is a decent baby-step, but it does feel like the bare-minimum-effort option.

Regarding the even more drastic option from the OP, I was originally torn on the idea, but now I'm leaning more toward the donor-priority side.
It feels like the way a community should function: If you have put forth your resources, you should get the priority when using other people's resources. Others, who have not donated to the cause, can still use the cause but do not get the priority. Being an organ-donor is like your "VIP" card, basically.
I don't really see any negatives to this system. Obviously, you'd have some people who get put to the bottom of the list when needing an organ; but that doesn't really feel all that wrong, considering those people weren't willing to give to the same pool of resources from which they must now pull.

(The same mentality applies to many aspects of life.)

 

[Fbh]

IMO when possible yes.
I also think people should be donors by default with an option to opt out (I know it's like this in some places, but not everywhere)

No. There's lots of people who can't be organ donors. Might as well chuck them in the grave if this policy was popular.

It wouldn't be too hard to make a distinction between people who can't donate due to medical reason and perfectly healthy people who just don't want to donate.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I skimmed this thread again, and I posted a few times already.

But I stick to what I said before. It's optional. You dont see mandatory blood donation even though every once in a while you see TV ads saying hospitals are running low. And donating blood is much less invasive.

Just because youre dead doesn't mean everyone should have access to go hog wild with your carcass. No different then laws that protect mutilation of bodies. If there's a dead guy on the street, you can't kick his head with your boot just because it makes no difference.

The government doesn't freeze your assets and take over your house just because you dont need it anymore either.

Got to have respect for people (even if dead) and dont treat people like an assembly line where you can just grab what you want off a guy.

As for who get first dibs when an organ is available is debatable depending on your view. It could be first come first serve, whomever needs it the most because a guy is going to die in a week if a donor cant be found, some people posted kids first. It can be argued whomever pays the most taxes gets it first (money talks), or whomever is poorest gets it first (progressive taxes and needy people get assistance priority).

I dont even know what the usual priority order is in countries. I'm going to assume they are smart enough to track which guy is most needy so he's first in line. But I dont know. Maybe some places are first come first serve. So even if you are basically at deaths door but at row #50, thats too bad. 49 other people get it first even though they are expected to live longer already.

 

[Croatoan]

The issue is for many country's is probably trust. And this is also the exact reason why i opted out.

What prevents a doctor from ripped you apart if you are on the edge of death instead of saving you when 3 kids could survive with your organs. What prevents for example a hospital from culling you because u are a gold mine for them by selling organs towards other country's.

What happens when people die off, and u get massive amounts of organs to the point u have to many? organ market.

I could see where doctors are ordered to do the minimal effort in order to get as much profits going for the higher up management.

Doctors don't usually know you are an organ donor until after death.

20 years from now we likely wont need donor organs as we will be able to grow/print perfect replacements.


In TV shows doctors always ask the grieving family if they will donate the deceased's organs so, given that is not total bullshit, I think your stuff can still be harvested even if you are not an "Organ Donor".

I have been an organ donor since I was 16 (got my license). I honestly saw no reason to not offer someone else a chance at life in the case mine ended. I never expected anything in return. As far as if Donors should get priority...I don't have an answer for that. There are arguments for both sides that make sense to me. Real tricky question. I think age should matter more than if you signed up to be a donor (it might already?)

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Doctors don't usually know you are an organ donor until after death.

20 years from now we likely wont need donor organs as we will be able to grow/print perfect replacements.


In TV shows doctors always ask the grieving family if they will donate the deceased's organs so, given that is not total bullshit, I think your stuff can still be harvested even if you are not an "Organ Donor".

I have been an organ donor since I was 16 (got my license). I honestly saw no reason to not offer someone else a chance at life in the case mine ended. I never expected anything in return. As far as if Donors should get priority...I don't have an answer for that. There are arguments for both sides that make sense to me. Real tricky question. I think age should matter more than if you signed up to be a donor (it might already?)

A donor first priority list IMO should not be done.

The reason why I say that is because in just about every country, healthcare is supposed to be for the people. A donor first method is really no different than whomever has the most money gets best service because they can pay to get into specialized hospitals fast over a poor guy waiting.

Essentially, it means "if I pay more (donate), I get more later". Some people can live with that. But many think (no different than taxes) that if you pay more into the pot it doesn't mean you get to hoard the resources when you need to. The point of that is to build the pot so the greater good can all access the pot.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Those who intentionally abuse their organs, knowing full well they are causing harm to them, should not be above anyone who hasn't on the list. But money talks, bullshit walks more often than not.