Support NeoGAF

[Jibbajabbawockky]

This whole pricing model would be interesting if it made other developers/publishers look more seriously at adding mod tools to their games, knowing that they could reap some monetary benefit from it.

That said, once money enters the picture this seems like a huge headache if one mod uses resources or assets from another without giving credit. Who is going to police that?

I'd have been way more enthusiastic about this if Valve just added the "Pay what you want" button on to every mod but not have any with some set price. So you could still download them all for free and if they work (even beyond just 24 hours) have some easy, direct way to monetarily reward the mod author.

 

[SneakyStephan]

should have just gone the whole nine yards and compared me to hitler, tbh.

Im saying they're not good arguments, I said nothing about you.

I'm all for mod makers getting money btw
But this is just mod makers getting exploited for the gains of publishers (and at the detriment of the consumer, two birds in one stone), and I don't like where publishers are going to take this.

I've already said my thoughts on why it's shitty and what it's natural conclusion will be in my first post in the thread.

 

[FyreWulff]

good. work costs money

This means that the developer gets a cut off of every piece of content sold right?

since mods are derivative works of the developer's work, makes sense to me if they want to sell content.

This would've been ok if creators got all/nearly all the money from purchases but instead it's just another jar of honey for valve to dip their hands into. 25% is an insult.

lol if only you could see the percents valve takes otherwise from regular game sales

 

[Clawww]

And while this is true, I don't think Valve or Bethesda are willing to help with the growing pains that's going to come with a 100 shirt mods being priced at 4.99 each that essentially ruin people's saves.

I think the amount of curation and moderation of this in Skyrim alone is something that Valve isn't going to want to deal with; I doubt they even CAN with their current staff.

there are going to be even more shitty, lazy, greedy mods now, sure, but I'm assuming there will be built in reviews and rankings so they stay down at the bottom.

 

[Netherscourge]

Does this mean Bethesda will try to shut down any modders who try to sell Skyrim mods OUTSIDE of the Steam Workshop? (So modders can keep a higher % of the sales, if not ALL of the % of the sales? As opposed to only netting 25%?)

(I don't even know if anyone does sell mods for Skyrim at the moment. Just wondering if that would still be an option for non-Workshop modders or if that's something the ToS/EULA forbids to begin with...?)

 

[Mesoian]

Thank you for taking this fight up on my behalf. Truly your contribution of $0 in principle is worth more than the pittance I would receive otherwise. I'm sure if content creators were making 75% of the profits off of this, your tune would change. Totally.

Real talk, I think opening a patreon and humbly asking for donations would be more beneficial than the monetary options offered here.

Maybe i'm wrong but...he's not lying when he's saying that 25% sounds REALLY bad.

Does this mean Bethesda will try to shut down any modders who try to sell Skyrim mods OUTSIDE of the Steam Workshop? (So they can keep a higher % of the sales, if not ALL of the % of the sales? As opposed to only netting 25%?)

(I don't even know if anyone does sell mods for Skyrim at the moment. Just wondering if that would still be an option for non-Workshop modders or if that's something the ToS/EULA forbids to begin with...?)

I don't see how they could, that would, in all actuality, destroy the modding community for good. Too many modding standards are reliant on stuff that exists outside of Steam's exosystem.

there are going to be even more shitty, lazy, greedy mods now, sure, but I'm assuming there will be built in reviews and rankings so they stay down at the bottom.

Sure, but will they be erected and bolstered quickly enough to cause the flood of garbage to keep from washing away anything worth value?

Time will tell I suppose. And it's not like the dedicated mod reviewers out there are going to suddenly go away.

 

[Krejlooc]

Im saying they're not good arguments, I said nothing about you.

You compared me to net neutrality opponents without directly attacking my points. "You are being exploited" is not a good argument when the alternative is no pay at all.

 

[crazyrabbits]

Thank you for taking this fight up on my behalf. Truly your contribution of $0 in principle is worth more than the pittance I would receive otherwise. I'm sure if content creators were making 75% of the profits off of this, your tune would change. Totally.

Don't try to guilt-trip me. I have contributed to both mods and online games in the past because I felt they were of benefit. My point stands.

It doesn't even seem you are answering to what I'm saying. I don't really see how we can reach a reasonable conclusion like this. I guess we just have to revisit this issue a year from now and see what happened.

That's your problem, then. You're either deliberately being obtuse (come on, "disturbed") or you're just not answering any of the questions I brought up.

If you're not going to be reasonable, there's no point talking to you. You're just trolling at this point.

 

[Krejlooc]

Real talk, I think opening a patreon and humbly asking for donations would be more beneficial than the monetary options offered here.

Maybe i'm wrong but...he's not lying when he's saying that 25% sounds REALLY bad.

More money than, say, being featured on steam's front page?

Naw.

Don't try to guilt-trip me. My point stands.

I am the target of your point, and I completely disagree.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Real talk, I think opening a patreon and humbly asking for donations would be more beneficial than the monetary options offered here.

Maybe i'm wrong but...he's not lying when he's saying that 25% sounds REALLY bad.

nobody donates shit unless youre really huge

and even then

 

[Juniez]

Making a game is still an order of magnitude harder than making a mod, let's not kid ourselves here.
25% (compared to 70% for full games) is still not that bad.
I'd guessed something nearer to 40-50%, like 40 creator - 30 valve - 30 bethesda, but eh, it's still something.

And first and foremost, it's a big legitimization of modding work.
This makes curriculum now.

but is not the original game sales from the modders/consumers not enough compensation for their original work on the game

 

[nomohair]

So wouldn't this turn "mods" into paid DLC? Sorry if already mentioned, don't have time to scroll entire thread.

 

[Mesoian]

More money than, say, being featured on steam's front page?

Naw.

Realistically, is that EVER going to happen?

 

[Satch]

steve.......... this thread is making me mad

 

[SteveWinwood]

Realistically, is that EVER going to happen?

its on the front page right now

 

[Krejlooc]

Realistically, is that EVER going to happen?

I would be willing to make an account bet that Black Mesa will eventually appear on the front page. EDIT: In fact, let's make this friendly. We'll do an avatar bet. If Black Mesa isn't featured on steam's front page within a month of release, you control my avatar. And vice versa otherwise.

its on the front page right now

haha

 

[Almighty]

Well I have to say that all the guilt tripping going on around the web like modders were poor victims forced at gun point all these years by Bethesda to slave away making mods before this happened is kind of funny.

 

[Juniez]

I would be willing to make an account bet that Black Mesa will eventually appear on the front page.



haha

black mesa has a separate license, full source code access, listed as a standalone game, not 25% etc etc,

 

[Mesoian]

nobody donates shit unless youre really huge

and even then

That's sort of the same as "no one buys mods unless it's something super substantial," right?

As another option for monetization, I suppose this is something. But seriously, "25% of 0 is 0" is still a pretty bad defense for people looking to make the faalskars, the cowl of nocturnes, the trainwiz's, etc.

As for, "are smaller mods, subsequently, not worth anything?" We're going to find out, aren't we?

 

[FyreWulff]

So wouldn't this turn "mods" into paid DLC? Sorry if already mentioned, don't have time to scroll entire thread.

If a mod creator choose to sell, yes. You'll still be able to give your mod away for free.

Also, the % cut is basically your license fee for using the Skyrim engine and a guarantee that Bethesda indemnifies your mod.

 

[Nzyme32]

So wouldn't this turn "mods" into paid DLC? Sorry if already mentioned, don't have time to scroll entire thread.

It doesn't. Creators decide on their own stuff together with their collaborators.

(From what I can tell) Mods via workshop are either

• Free
• Pay What You Want (with suggested price as default)
• Paid

And of course mods outside of Steam are free as ever.

Right now people are experimenting so it will be a mess, but when this settles down, there is a realistic viability for some modders to feel confident enough to continue to support their mods, build upon them and make things that are of a larger scale / more meaningful content over time vs typical free mods. I would speculate these will be in the minority but hopefully something interesting or special

 

[Krejlooc]

black mesa has a separate license, full source code access, listed as a standalone game, not 25% etc etc,

It is still a mod, and other big name mods are, and will be, offered the same sort of licensing deal. This is all part of valve's bigger plan for UGC, one they went over a year and a half ago.

 

[MattPeters]

I like the idea of people getting reimbursed for their hard work, modding has made so many games better, but looking at my 50+ New Vegas mods and 200+ Skyrim mods, I shutter to think how much I could be paying for the next installments lol.

 

[JoeyJungle]

nsfw? http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=430756460&searchtext=


WTF is this shit? And gist of the comments are "I disagree with the racism, but you make a really compelling argument."

 

[SteveWinwood]

That's sort of the same as "no one buys mods unless it's something super substantial," right?

As another option for monetization, I suppose this is something. But seriously, "25% of 0 is 0" is still a pretty bad defense for people looking to make the faalskars, the cowl of nocturnes, the trainwiz's, etc.

As for, "are smaller mods, subsequently, not worth anything?" We're going to find out, aren't we?

i mean

who's stopping them from setting up a patreon and finding out right now?

 

[Mesoian]

its on the front page right now

Yes, the news that the limit has been removed and monetization options are open is on the front page.

Real talk, do you think that, let's say two weeks after this goes into effect, that we're ever going to see a Skyrim mod on the front page? Seriously, what is the likelihood of that happening?

People keep trying to throw Gary's mod and Counterstrike in my face as mods that successfully went on to become other products but that feels like a completely different animal. Realistically, do you think we're ever going to see SkyUI on the front page of steam for sale? I don't. I don't think Valve is going to have that level of curation with this thing.

Like, when was the last time you saw a hat for TF2 or a badge for DOTA2 on the frontpage?

i mean

who's stopping them from setting up a patreon and finding out right now?

Not a thing. In fact, I expect the comparisons a month from now to be illuminating.

 

[Foffy]

nobody donates shit unless youre really huge

and even then

Yep. I cited ArmA earlier, but if I can be more specific, the user Kju was the one who set up a Patreon, and he got very little. To consider what he's done for the ArmA series: he's ported ArmA I to ArmA II with the CAA1 mod, ported ArmA I and II to ArmA III in the All in Arma project, worked on porting all of ArmA II's weapons for better ArmA III compatibility, and worked with the developers of Iron Front: Liberation 1944 to port that into ArmA II and III, as it used the same base engine, as well as being a huge resource of help for the community for modding. He was considered one of the biggest guys in the modding community for the franchise.

He barely made any money via donations, and closed up shop on modding entirely, as it was no longer sustainable for him. This new system can alleviate such situations, but as I said earlier, it can also produce hoarding and the community to not work together, as the cancers of capitalism and the poisonous dollar mean one must make it in one-upmanship. This also effected the ArmA series with the Make ArmA Not War campaign by the series developers: the community very rarely openly shared information with one another when money was involved, and only did so after the contest ended and the money was given to the winners.

What we may be seeing here is both a blessing and a curse for modding, potentially both at the same time.

 

[Nzyme32]

nsfw? http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=430756460&searchtext=


WTF is this shit? And gist of the comments are "I disagree with the racism, but you make a really compelling argument."

Welcome to the internet, where there is always someone veiling their disagreements with one thing in racism and other crap for attention and memes

 

[King Gilga]

Wow 25%? that's fucking pathetic.

 

[Sendou]

That's your problem, then. You're either deliberately being obtuse (come on, "disturbed") or you're just not answering any of the questions I brought up.

If you're not going to be reasonable, there's no point talking to you. You're just trolling at this point.

It's just that you call me out from "throwing out hypotheticals" but what exactly do you think you have? They literally launched this two hours ago. And if you're not ready to speculate then the only logical conclusion is stepping out from this thread and waiting to see what happens.

 

[Krejlooc]

Yes, the news that the limit has been removed and monetization options are open is on the front page.

Real talk, do you think that, let's say two weeks after this goes into effect, that we're ever going to see a Skyrim mod on the front page? Seriously, what is the likelihood of that happening?

People keep trying to throw Gary's mod and Counterstrike in my face as mods that successfully went on to become other products but that feels like a completely different animal. Realistically, do you think we're ever going to see SkyUI on the front page of steam for sale? I don't. I don't think Valve is going to have that level of curation with this thing.

Like, when was the last time you saw a hat for TF2 or a badge for DOTA2 on the frontpage?

The Arma II: Day Z mod has made steam's front page. As in the mod, not the stand alone version. I know because my friend bought Arma II and installed the mod because it was advertised.

 

[elyetis]

I don't see how they could, that would, in all actuality, destroy the modding community for good. Too many modding standards are reliant on stuff that exists outside of Steam's exosystem.

I can't see them try to lock skyrim modding scene to steam workshop, it's too late for that. I definitly fear that possibility for their next game thought.

 

[Juniez]

It is still a mod, and other big name mods are, and will be, offered the same sort of licensing deal. This is all part of valve's bigger plan for UGC, one they went over a year and a half ago.

a part of my worry for that seems to be that black mesa, insurgency, etc have that extra support because of valve owning the source engine as well as steam - would Bethsoft game workshop mods really see that same kind of exposure / licensing leniency?

e: i guess there is dayz as that one example but it sounds like an outlier than a prototype

 

[robgrab]

So J. Allard's promise of Velocity_Gurl being able to sell her T-shirts on Xbox Live is finally becoming a reality? Seriously though, I don't use the Steam Workshop for any of my mods anyway. I've always used Nexus and bought the lifetime membership. On the other hand I don't mind donating money to huge mod projects like Black Mesa, Skywind, etc. where teams have spent several years developing something of substance. I also recently funded the Resident Evil 4 HD Project because the work they're doing is stellar and I want to incentivize their efforts. The whole "horse armor" nickel and diming is what I don't like. I'm just surprised Valve didn't do this earlier since they've made so much from user created items in games like TF2 and DOTA.

 

[ElTopo]

Those guys who have made those sexy mods are going to the bank now.

 

[hobblygobbly]

Next step: Early Access Mods

 

[Mavromatis]

The notion some of you guys have that we, who have done work for free for years, are somehow going to struggle to become motivated to keep our monitzation going is ridiculous. If we are selling a mod and an update breaks it, we have more motivation to fix it now because, so long as it's broken, we can't keep selling it. Don't you guys get it?

The existence of Nexus and Desura and similar other places where mods are collected should have proven your point of good guys exist but as you can see not many is willing to cover all modders with a blanket of trust.
Selling a mod should be possible and I assume was possible on smaller games and special cases, but without Valve's support it wouldn't be possible to survive the legality of selling mods for more popular games. Yet selling something changes the interaction, people who trusted you to put no ill in those files and run them now looks at you as someone after its profit not a hobbyist. They wonder if you are trying to scam them, they wonder if they paid too much.

 

[Mesoian]

I can't see them try to lock skyrim modding scene to steam workshop, it's too late for that. I definitly fear that possibility for their next game thought.

I mean, it's not the same thing, but GTA5 is a pretty good indicator on what we have to look forward to when it comes to AAA development interacting with what would be the modding community.

The Arma II: Day Z mod has made steam's front page. As in the mod, not the stand alone version. I know because my friend bought Arma II and installed the mod because it was advertised.

Well maybe I'm wrong then. Maybe this will be the thing that modders need to become motivated to create new an amazing pieces. We don't really have to speculate, we'll find out soon.

But 25% is still a bum deal.

 

[Metrotab]

Can't wait to read the reviews on games that support paid mods.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/reviews/

 

[SerTapTap]

I see the community is reacting in a level headed and respectful manner already

 

[nomohair]

It doesn't. Creators decide on their own stuff together with their collaborators.

(From what I can tell) Mods via workshop are either

• Free
• Pay What You Want (with suggested price as default)
• Paid

And of course mods outside of Steam are free as ever.

Right now people are experimenting so it will be a mess, but when this settles down, there is a realistic viability for some modders to feel confident enough to continue to support their mods, build upon them and make things that are of a larger scale / more meaningful content over time vs typical free mods. I would speculate these will be in the minority but hopefully something interesting or special

Thanks. This is a very good explanation. I guess my biggest concern would be that for every mod worth paying for, there would many times more that wouldn't be. But the creators of the crap mods would still want to be paid for their effort no matter the quality. Of course no one would be forced to buy, but it could very easily change modding to a paid for process thus ruining one of the greatest advantages of pc gaming. I know this is hypothetical, but everything has a beginning. Then again I just don't know. If not for DSFix by Durante, Dark Souls on pc would have been nearly pointless. So many pros and cons both ways I guess.

 

[ashecitism]

https://twitter.com/JimoUK/status/591341729007165441

 

[SteveWinwood]

why are people posting dumb ass comments from weirdos

 

[crazyrabbits]

It's just that you call me out from "throwing out hypotheticals" but what exactly do you think you have? They literally launched this two hours ago. And if you're not ready to speculate then the only logical conclusion is stepping out from this thread and waiting to see what happens.

That street works both ways, chief. I've pointed out a number of issues and problems that have been and are inherent to a service (and modding) like this, ones that have already been echoed by quite a few people. You're making up scenarios and trying to justify it through some kind of faux-outrage, then you avoid my questions and responses.

I don't think I've ever had someone tell me they were "disturbed" by something I said. That amuses me.

Perhaps it's time we took a break from this thread. I learned a long time ago that there was no use getting angry over people's responses on a message board, but it seems you took my responses to heart. There's way too much anger in here.

 

[Krejlooc]

why are people posting dumb ass comments from weirdos

Cause neogaf shit posts doesn't tweet anymore, I guess.

 

[Nzyme32]

Can't wait to read the reviews on games that support paid mods.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/reviews/

The usual reactionary reviews are still in effect I see. It will be fun to see how long it takes for them to flip the other way again (or stay the same)

 

[Orayn]

That street works both ways, chief. I've pointed out a number of issues and problems that have been and are inherent to a service (and modding) like this, ones that have already been echoed by quite a few people. You're making up scenarios and trying to justify it through some kind of faux-outrage, then you avoid my questions and responses.

I don't think I've ever had someone tell me they were "disturbed" by something I said. That amuses me.

Perhaps it's time we took a break from this thread. I learned a long time ago that there was no use getting angry over people's responses on a message board, but it seems you took my responses to heart. There's way too much anger in here.

Mods turning into commercial successes isn't a made-up scenario, it's a very large part of Valve's business model.

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

What the kind of revenue split is that? 25% for content creators means what, 50% for Bethesda and 25% for valve? That's some exploitative bullshit.

 

[EroticSushi]

Why not just do a donate option?

 

[Nzyme32]

https://twitter.com/JimoUK/status/591341729007165441

Sometimes I hate the gaming community. It's both amusing and just sad. If you don't like something, sure don't support it and speak up about it, but some civility goes a long way