SmartWaffles
Member
Savage.
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UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013
- Thread starter jeff_rigby
- Start date
Savage.
Thebeardofknowledge
Banned
great job for shitting on the dude because you don't agree with his theories
stay classy
I think stinkles should know what he is talking about. Same goes to Matt.
jeff_rigby
Banned
That's the point, there are no physical changes, it's all firmware changes.
1) This 2010 article is about the Panasonic - Sony tweak 33GB/layer disks. http://kotaku.com/5441116/sony-increasing-the-storage-capacity-of-blu-ray-discs
2) They can be read by standard drives but maybe not reliably (see iMLSE below).
3) If a drive is firmware updated it can reliably read a 33 GB/layer disk
4) The patent is about inverting the track information of a 33 GB/layer disk so it can't be read by a drive that has not yet been firmware updated. The firmware update is mentioned in the cite on line #1
The V2 format was in the 2010 Sony patent mentioned by NAME as V2 that mentioned the Panasonic-Sony tweek that allowed the extra compression which Sony said just required a Firmware update and the same patent mentioned that drives in 2010 could read the three layers. The 2010 BD-R whitepaper updated the specs so that a drive could reliably read three layers with the tweak which is why BDXL can read version 2 UHD disks. .
Page 32 of thr BDA whitepaper says this:
The Mount Fuji book goes into more detail on all the changes needed and they are summarized in the differences between book 8 and 9. which I listed here. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=206412916&postcount=703
And then for the less technically minded, the Microsoft VP said in 2013 at the Launch for the XB1 that the Hardware is there to support UHD Blu-ray. Which means he knew that the drive could be firmware updated and the XB1 was UHD Capable. The latter was confirmed with the release of the April 2015 letter I cited.
No. A document meant to talk about software changes does not fit the argument that there would be no physical changes.
The kotaku article is wrong. I've read quite a few news articles on that topic now and it has become apparent, that old drives being compatible with those discs is just some outlets jumping to conclusions. It wasn't guaranteed that the drives would be compatible. The format also never seemed to have materialized - until now of course. No 66GB games for PS3
The whitepaper explicitly states:
Now they are not even talking about three-layered discs here or DL 66GB, but only DL, 50GB.
BDXL is also incompatible with normal drives (of course), for which they have fancy pictures even. Now I know you want to believe that something happened between then and now that changed this, but I still haven't seen any real evidence that it did. Juggling around all those old documents sure doesn't help, when all evidence apparantly has to be 'read between the lines.'
Since no normal players today have actually been made compatible by a firmware update, you'd have to argue that it was just a conspiracy to force us to buy new drives.
MaximusPayne
Member
So don't upgrade to S if I'm looking for a cheap 4k player?
Adam Tyner
Member
If you're in the market for an Ultra HD Blu-ray player now-ish, you're unlikely to find a player of that quality and with that assured level of support at that price point anytime soon. The S seems like a great bet to me. The Samsung player (the only standalone in the U.S. right now) is $399, so if you're going to spend that much anyway, why not get a sexier Xbox in the process?
There has been no official word in years about Ultra HD Blu-ray support in the existing models. It's not out of the realm of possibility, but I wouldn't bank on it.
Plus...hey! Ultra HD Blu-ray playback is ready to go and everything on the S:
jeff_rigby
Banned
Which is why I never made that argument until you brought it up but it's true.
First, the 2010 BD-R whitepaper, 2010 Patent and 2010 Panasonic-Sony tweak show everyone setting what would become the UHD Blu-ray disk in 2010. Even if a drive couldn't, as the article states, be firmware updated to reliably read a disk with a reduced mark length they had three years to insure BD-ROM drives that could. We should be able to assume newer drives able to read at more than 6X (1.5 times what is needed for UHD Blu-ray to support HEVC multi-view plus depthmap that requires 1.5 times the bandwidth/size for 3D and VR) would support iMLSE.The kotaku article is wrong. I've read quite a few news articles on that topic now and it has become apparent, that old drives being compatible with those discs is just some outlets jumping to conclusions. It wasn't guaranteed that the drives would be compatible. The format also never seemed to have materialized - until now of course. No 66GB games for PS3
If you carefully read that sentence it's saying that the 50GB standard disk can be read by a standard drive but can't be played by a HD player because of HEVC, AACS2 and disk directory/Java engine etc. changes.
The major change to a BD-ROM drive is the ability to read a version 2 disk reliably because the mark length was reduced to increase the density of the disk. That is a routine called iMLSE that was developed before 2010 and became a part of the 2010 BD-R spec, Panasonic-Sony Tweak and mentioned in the 2010 patent. iMLSE is in the BDA whitepaper and Mount Fuji book 9 for UHD 33Gb/layer version 2 disks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray said:
The drive must additionally support BD+ and BD-ROM mark which the PS3 drives support. The drive must pair for a key to support encryption across the USB or eSATA which the PS3 does but for PCs must be able to do this with a drive manufacturer supplied server which also supports a white list. AACS2 and BD+ routines must run in the TEE. The Mount Fuji book changes from book 8 to 9 give the changes to the firmware needed to support this and I've read them all in about an hour and they do not require hardware changes.
As to reading 3 or more layers.
Sony has a BDA licence for a BD-ROM4 spec drive (UHD) but they have not made drives since 2012. Key here is the drive and Player require a server for encryption key pairing across the USB or eSATA and a white list server which is maintained by the drive licencee. So for my speculation to be accurate, beyond the firmware update Sony has to buy a licence for the BD-ROM4 drive and provide the servers. Since Sony has a UHD blu-ray licence for every platform which includes PCs they just need to work with drive manufacturers and they can firmware update any drive and provide the servers as part of the Player PC application. LG-Hitachi is the only other BD-ROM4 licencee so every UHD Player out now would have to have a drive made by LG-Hitachi.
Adam Tyner
Member
You're seriously arguing that the Samsung, Panasonic, and Philips standalone players all have drives by Hitachi-LG? There is no way in hell that Samsung would ever build a product using LG hardware. Why would any manufacturer with a long history of making Blu-ray drives possibly have to rely on Hitachi-LG as a supplier? You need to provide proof for such an outlandish claim. Why would you possibly think a PC license somehow extends to supplying the drives for every other UHD BD device? I can't quickly find evidence of Hitachi-LG being responsible for anything other than laptop/desktop optical drives.
For what it's worth, Xbox chief Phil Spencer uses lots of terms/phrases you dislike about what makes the S different:
Also:
If every Xbox One will be able to play UHD content in the next couple of months, why make the distinction?
This article specifically refers to variants with 25GB per layer, so that may be just fine, but has no relevance for the UHD-Blu-ray standard, which goes for the 33GB layers, which the very same article states as unable to be made compatible with a firmware update.
You disprove yourself and don't even notice it.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Sorry, the drive licence is included with embedded and Game console players but think about what you are pointing out:
Sony (UHD PC Drive Licence) doesn't make drives since 2012 and you are saying Hitachi-LG (second PC drive Licence) can't be providing the drives for the other Embedded UHD Blu-ray players so there are multiple BD-ROM4 spec drives being made by multiple companies or is it that the standard drive is firmware update-able and they buy one and have it firmware updated for their player.
Adam Tyner
Member
I know exactly what I'm pointing out: you made a completely outlandish claim that doesn't stand up to the slightest bit of thought or scrutiny.
Why would it be some kind of shocking revelation that the Samsung Ultra HD Blu-ray player has a Samsung drive? They've made Blu-ray drives for ages. Ditto for Panasonic and Philips. The crux of everything you've been ranting about is that there's no such thing as an Ultra HD Blu-ray drive, so why would established Blu-ray drive manufacturers all of a sudden have to farm out that work?
Dictator93
Member
This is not really a great argument because if the initial argument (i.e. your evidence) is full of holes...one does not need to counter it with the counter-factual.
This evidence you mention was never sufficient enough beyond its speculation and news paper clipping-like approach. I think that is why most people dismissed the content of this thread.
"Mac you don't understand, the UHD is already there! It's there... but it's not. BUT IT IS MAC. I KNOW IT! IT'S THERE LOCKED AWAY AND THEY WONT LET US HAVE IT."
jeff_rigby
Banned
Why didn't Microsoft announce UHD Capable and HEVC support in the XB1. They had test benches running multiple XB1s with HEVC streams before launch but didn't announce HEVC till June 2015 and within days AMD announces that they use the same hardware for HEVC that is in the XB1. Why did Sony announce no DLNA support in the PS4 when they always had plans to support Vidipath which requires DLNA?
There must be a NDA still in effect. Having tens of millions of UHD blu-ray players out in consumer hands will have an impact on sectors of the CE industry including stock price and official announcements must be controlled. The Letters I cited mentioning Launch PS4 and XB1 UHD Capability were put on the web I think April 2016 but were written April 2015.
Adam Tyner
Member
...but you're still hellbent on claiming that this is coming to all PS4s and Xbox Ones by mid-October at the latest, with very few standalone UHD BD models coming out between now and then. So what difference would a few months make? Why does the S get a free pass? Why does the Xbox camp say that the S requires new hardware (including the UHD BD drive you say doesn't exist), and why does the EVP in charge of PlayStation hardware say the same? Are they colluding to mask the existence of a magical firmware upgrade? Does it all tie into Sony-Microsoft.com?
The answer, of course, is that you're looking for a conspiracy where there is none.
Stevey
Member
Ok, but why would they put 4k capable drives in the consoles if they couldn't be used for 4K and they couldn't tell anyone about it due to a theoretical NDA.
Surely that's just needlessly adding cost to the production of the console.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Official recognition that the Launch PS4 and XB1 are UHD capable:
http://www.eceee.org/static/media/u.../games-consoles-va-letter-to-stakeholders.pdf
Second letter from Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo on Voluntary power which has Power Tiers confirming the Launch consoles can support UHD and will be updated Jan 2016. Further it has power tiers that align with the 2017 console refreshes/iterations and have a 2019 power tier which must be the next refresh iteration or generation console.
https://ec.europa.eu/energy/sites/e...les Self-Regulatory Initiative V1 - Final.pdf
jeff_rigby
Banned
If the HD blu-ray drive is firmware updateable then there is no additional cost except for HD blu-ray and licence. Why did Microsoft for the first time include HD Blu-ray in a console? Why for the first time is Sony going to support UHD blu-ray on PCs? The answer here I think is the UHD Blu-ray digital bridge which makes Game Consoles and PCs with Hard disks and HD/UHD players/drives and the digital bridge more valuable. Vidipath needs servers and customers setting up their home network to support this in preparation for the same with 4K antenna TV vidipath tuners and Cable TV DVRs that also support Vidipath.
Microsoft releasing Xbox dongle, Xbox Mini STB,Xbox1 Slim, XB1 Scorpio is also in preparation to use Vidipath. The same with Game sharing over the home network which has the hardware to support Vidipath over the home network when you add the Playready DRM.
jeff_rigby
Banned
And I agree this type of talk does seem to point to UHD blu-ray support starting with the Slim. Since the XB1 APU didn't get a refresh in 2015 like the PS4 Southbridge did, if I am totally wrong about everything, the 2015 version for the PS4 should be able to support UHD blu-ray while the XB1 would have to wait for the Slim 2016 version.
But we have to assume there is some reason Sony didn't announce UHD Blu-ray support for the 2015 second revision that launched at the end of 2015 about the same time UHD Players launched. Or we must believe that UHD blu-ray support in the consoles is not something that Sony would find attractive and isn't going to support UHD with the consoles. Microsoft is just throwing it in for giggles because they can and the $60,000 licence is not a factor nor is the contracting with third party for the player or the certification or required servers and all the other requirements that come with UHD Blu-ray support. "We are doing it just because we can."
So Sony or one of the other licencees is writing the Player for the XB1
Every one of the above have their own embedded UHD player except for Sony but Sony has a licence for every platform including PCs. Could Sony perhaps know that Game consoles will be UHD blu-ray Players and there are already tens of millions of them on the market so releasing one now is not economical.
Adam Tyner
Member
...or that version of the PS4 isn't capable of Ultra HD Blu-ray either, in keeping with what Ito said. ...or there's the possibility that Sony is reserving that functionality for the Neo and on, regardless of what may be technically possible.
I guarantee you that approaching zero people know if they have that specific revision of the PS4. I mean, it's not as if it was marketed as being anything different. If it were possible to do a firmware update for those consoles only, that just seems like it'd lead to terrible confusion about who can watch what. Going to the time/expense to add that as a feature to an unlabeled subset of consoles would probably cause more harm than good.
jeff_rigby
Banned
UHD Capable means in the second letter that all the PS4 and XB1 consoles are UHD capable with the first letter stating the 2013 consoles are UHD capable. For your argument to be valid, UHD BLu-ray would not be considered a precursor for UHD Antenna TV (ATSC 3.0 in the US) or an additional Vidipath source on the home network.
Your previous post on Microsoft touting the Slim with UHD BLu-ray at little to no additional cost for the drive and the other requirements I mentioned amortized over millions of consoles:
1) HDR is part of the UHD Capability
2) increased HDMI capability is part of UHD Capability
3) UHD streaming is UHD Capability
4) The launch XB1 and PS4 are UHD Capable
5) The UHD drive costs no more than a HD drive or at least the price difference is negligible and it supports both HD and UHD blu-ray. Is a UHD drive a firmware updated HD drive? This is the only legitimate argument/question and only answerable with the MS VP statement at launch and a technical understanding from the BDA and Mount Fuji book which I am barely able to follow and could have missed something. I have shown that the Version 2 disk supported by the BD-ROM4 spec was envisioned prior to 2010 and specs published in 2010. A BD-ROM3 drive can be firmware updated to support Version 2 disks. The other differences appear to be firmware as far as the drive is concerned.
I hope this gets people to understand that a UHD drive is not expensive. Economy of scale is not built into the early release UHD Players while it is built into the game consoles. One of the reasons I believe the HD drive is firmware update-able is that it makes it easier and cheaper to support UHD blu-ray. This seems to be supported as the price of a drive supporting UHD on the XB1 slim did not change the price of the XB1 slim.
Adam Tyner
Member
...but it's not established that every version of every PS4/XB1 console is UHD capable. I put zero stock in those vague, non-descriptive EU letters. If that's the only "evidence" you have without going back to quotes from 3 years ago, then you have nothing. I'm not sold on absolutely everything hinging on ATSC 3.0 or Vidipath either. That hasn't stopped standalone UHD BD players from existing.
No, HDR is a requirement of using the Ultra HD Premium label, but it's not inherently part of UHD.
Phil Spencer sure is making it sound like the original Xbox One can't stream 4K video or handle HDR, although he's certainly said some other questionable stuff over the past couple of days, so it's not certain how bulletproof that is.
Are you backing away from your fiery insistence that every version of every PS4/XB1 console can play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs with a firmware update? Are you done calling people blithering idiots for daring to suggest that there is such a thing as an Ultra HD Blu-ray drive?
jeff_rigby
Banned
I occasionally rethink my position, do more research to confirm and am always open to proof. To this point, given the letters, my two year old views on this have been confirmed except for the drive against multiple posts saying I am insane, troubled, an idiot or worse and seriously condescending.
There is a stubborn insistence that UHD Capable does not mean UHD Capable when the PS3 is considered HD and it supports what you and others consider 4K support and what you think UHD capable means. I believe you are guilty of what you and others have accused me...your views are so rigid that you deny every point without thinking it through. Others are so locked into this that they fail to see the big picture which you have reffered to as yadda yadda yadda.
Only the DRIVE is in question which I am acknowledging. I have presented what should be proof if I read the paper correctly but no one else appears to want to do so to confirm. The last guy stopped at the first sentience that he thought meant the drive when it was talking about the player not able to read a standard disk with UHD blu-ray media. I had to read the line twice and did so because of my views.
If you read Phil Spencer's statements with my view, the HDMI port has likely been upgraded from supporting the basic HDMI 2 features to nearly the whole quote extensive set. Neo is getting a HDMI 2 upgrade as mentioned in the Developer notes.
Adam Tyner
Member
Nope! There's also your misunderstanding of what UHD is. Look at Netflix's Ultra HD section and note the microscopic percentage of content with HDR, for instance. Oodles of UHD displays (not UHD Premium, though) do not support HDR.
I am also absolutely putting the EU letters into question as a resource of any real consequence, and virtually every dot you're connecting hinges on that.
So you think things like:
are warm and cheery? You've repeatedly said that people who think that regular Blu-ray drive can't be firmware updated are clueless and ignorant. Do you not remember posting that animated GIF of a cartoon character flipping over a table when you got especially exasperated (for something you were ultimately wrong about)?
"yadda yadda yadda" is basically another way of saying "etc." It means I didn't feel like typing out a bunch of stuff that didn't need to be there. Pretend I wrote "Vidipath HTML5 <video> PlayReady ooVoo 4K Korean Olympics broadcasts ATSC 3.0" instead.
My "view" is that there's a world of difference between fact and speculation. If you're guessing, even if it's an informed guess, don't present it as absolute fact, and for crying out loud, don't give specific date ranges that something will happen if it's just speculation. You're spreading misinformation! Yes, I am very rigid about that. For someone who's so obsessed with documentation and white papers, I'm sincerely surprised that you're not.
I've said all along that I'm open to the possibility that a firmware update could exist, although that's seemed less and less likely to happen as the days went on. (Why would I not want it to be true? I'm a home theater nut and own both of the consoles in question.) If I were putting bets on things a couple of years ago, I'd have said that UHD BD support was a lot more likely than Xbox 360 backwards compatibility, and look how that shook out. It's not the concept of UHD BD support that I've been questioning, exactly, so much as your methods for arriving at that conclusion (or, as I see it, you arrived at a conclusion and are grasping at straws to support it).
Why, yes, of course you did. All I was saying is that claiming there to be no recessary physical changes cannot be proved by a document that only talks about software in general. It wouldn't mention it anyway.
Like I have said: There was no reason at all for them to build their drives with this in mind when there is no medium available (for YEARS, 2016) that makes use of this except for BDXL, which are only compatible with drives that are explicitly labelled as BDXL-compatible. They want to sell new products and not stealth-release compatible drives years before the format is finalized.
No, the sentence doesn't say that at all. It says that it can't be played back.
Alas we have yet to see any evidence that any actual non-BDXL drives were designed with this in mind (except for new UHD players of course). And you still haven't provided good evidence that physical changes haven't been necessary.
Regarding the wikipedia quotation: Please check the source for that claim (btw. it is the same problem as with the kotaku article)
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=3977
The source says 'might be compatible.' Now it might be the case that the source linked on wikipedia was only used for the second part of the statement and they took the claim that it was compatible from somewhere else (which would be even worse, no citation at all). I have reason to believe though that Sony and Panasonic never said that it will definitely be compatible. Here is another source, but it is in German:
It says that Nikkei (the original source of this whole affair) didn't say whether currently available players could be upgraded (by firmware) to support this.
In the sentence before, they said that current laser optics would support this (that is what Sony and Panasonic have originally said), but there is more to a drive than that and so they were sensible enough not to make any claims of their own.
But we are talking about news articles from six years ago! The wikipedia article really is an amazing read -of disappointments that is, because nothing ever come out of these supposedly dead-sure innovations, that would have us see 200GB discs, compatible with drives of that time. There is one way to sum this all up:
itsfuckingnothing.gif
Now you're just repeating what I have already adressed.
mitchman
Gold Member
Yes, and UHD is used in the PS4 photo app. Doesn`t mean it`ll do UHD Blu-ray, though.
Is capable of outputting a 4k image.
jeff_rigby
Banned
And I'll repeat again, Sony and Panasonic developed the shorter mark length method to create a 33 GB/layer disk before 2010 and were going to present it to the BDA for implementation. If it can be implemented via firmware update or required a change to BDA specs that had to be implemented with a new chipset, it was early enough that all newer drives should include it as all BDXL drives already do because it was included in the 2010 BD-R whitepaper.
The purpose of the 2010 patent gives us a clue. They couldn't implement shipping a 33 GB/layer disk when there could be BD-ROM drives that wouldn't read the disk reliably because a firmware update wasn't done or needing a more powerful DSP for iMLSE. So they don't do so except for new classes of drives like BDXL which were introduced after the BD-R paper was published in 2010.
They now have a newer class drive spec called BD-ROM4 for UHD which can be a newer firmware updated BD-ROM3 drive that will read a 33GB/layer disk when it's in UHD mode and will refuse to do so when in HD mode. If you are a drive manufacturer, do you want to have two lines of drives or one that does both if it costs nearly nothing extra to do so? If you are the BDA, you want it as easy as possible to support UHD.
We are discussing 33GB/layer version 2 disks because this appears to be THE major change between HD and UHD disks that the drive will have to support. The other changes appear to be firmware differences between the BD-ROM3 and BD-ROM4 specs in how the drive communicates with the Player. HD and UHD are different modes in the drive and Player. This is why a BDXL drive can read a 33 GB/layer UHD disk but it can't work with a UHD player without a firmware update.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yes the PS4 "C" chassis is the 2015 revision that has an identical APU but forged at Global Foundries using their advanced 28nm process that is denser which results in more chips per wafers which use less power with denser memory chips and half their number no longer in the clam shell configuration.
For this thread, the Southbridge chip was completely changed including moving some of the functions in support chips into Southbridge for a simpler cheaper MB.
Southbridge contains the ARM trustzone TEE and HDCP 2.2 so if HDCP 2.2 didn't make it into the Launch PS4 it would be in this 2015 revision as would a UHD Drive as the "C" revision shipped within 2 months of the UHD players. Please understand that the letters I cite confirm the launch PS4 is UHD Capable but leave room for doubt about the drive which I also affirm can support UHD blu-ray with a firmware update.
Arguments about timing not allowing HDCP2.2 and a UHD drive for the 2013 launch PS4 do not apply to the 2015 version and Sony has not announced UHD blu-ray for that either. You must assume Sony is not going to support UHD Blu-ray or for some reason they are not ready to announce support for it.
jeff_rigby
Banned
The PS3 can output 4K also and it is labeled as a HD capable console where the PS4 is labeled as a UHD Capable console. That precludes the PS3 playing UHD or UHD Blu-ray but does not preclude the PS4 from playing UHD or UHD blu-ray. Others have argued and rightly that the PS4 displaying a photo in 4K does not make it UHD capable and the PS3 doing so supports that.
jeff_rigby
Banned
HDR is part of the UHD standard and will be part of every UHD media including media streamed through the browser, UHD Blu-ray, ATSC 3 or Netflix.
This is where I think you are stretching. The two letters are from different sources, both in contact with the Game Console manufacturers and the EU. They confirm what I have speculated based on other papers, the breadth of which form a picture of what is coming that is compelling in it'self.
This is part of the picture that is compelling.
I respect this attitude, you are open to the possibility compared to the "it isn't happening" and you are insane to think so or to continue to believe against "proof offered" when none has been offered. Facts are not proven by vote or by consensus.
But they want you to buy the S version which is why they won't do a firmware update for the old boxes.
Adam Tyner
Member
Adding a feature like this to a revision of a console that very few people know if they own or not makes no sense. It'd be different if any new features for a revision were more "self-contained" -- making an existing feature a bit more efficient, running/downloading apps that can't run on other versions iOS-style, even physical changes like the 360 adding HDMI after launch, etc. -- but when you're trying to compel people to go out and buy stacks of movies, it seems obvious (to me, anyway) that that's something else entirely. If the conversation were even about UHD downloads, I could see that being in a specific revision since you could screen out incompatible hardware in the PS Store, but we're talking about going to a brick-and-mortar store and buying discs here. Sony would never want a situation where someone wants to buy a disc but doesn't know if it'll play in their console or not.
Seriously, even on an enthusiast forum like this, if you asked people cold what version of the PS4 they had, approaching zero people would know. How do you even market that? Do you have to broadcast a message on it saying "okay, your PS4 can play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs, but not millions upon millions of other ones that look exactly like it"? Did your PS4 Wonka Bar contain a UHD golden ticket? It's easier to roll that sort of thing out with a better defined revision, like going from fat to slim. Assuming if it's technically possible, I would argue that adding Ultra HD Blu-ray playback to a not-obvious revision is a bad idea. You'd be sowing confusion rather than growing the market base for UHD BD.
Also, let's say that the Neo adds a dedicated HEVC decoder as Ito suggested. Do you think it makes sense for Sony to maintain two separate methods of HEVC decoding (one for the new box, another for the 2015 revision)? Hell, for marketing reasons alone -- look at our sexy new box! It does 4K! -- it makes more sense for Sony to wait.
I would not make any decisions based on his speculation. There are no leaks, rumors, remotely recent official statements, etc. to that effect. Phil Spencer has been talking about how new features for the Xbox One S make it possible to support 4K, in contrast to what Jeff has been saying, and the executive VP leading the PlayStation hardware team has also spoken about how the PS4 currently doesn't have the hardware to support UHD BD either.
As c0de said above, there's not much incentive for them to add this feature to the original consoles when they can try to sell you a new box instead. It'd be nice, but there's no indication that any sort of update to the launch consoles is going to happen or is even possible.
Not in the way you're suggesting. It's part of the Ultra HD Premium standard. You can have Ultra HD without HDR, and you can have HDR without the Ultra HD Premium label. (In fact, Sony's own displays meet the Ultra HD Premium requirements but do not use them.)
The two letters say almost nothing of consequence related to this, neither say anything about Ultra HD Blu-ray specifically, and neither specify every version of every XB1/PS4 console. You're taking a console name, a month/year, and the words "UHD Capable" and developing an entire story around that. That vague and potentially meaningless information is not a strong foundation for the weight of the argument you're putting on it. It'd be different if there were other documents substantiating this, but there aren't.
jeff_rigby
Banned
If it's just for the UHD Blu-ray then no wait. The Slim is supposed to be slightly more powerful and probably will support more OpenVX with accelerators and HDMI 2 features.
Most of the features in the 15 special blocks in the launch XB1 have not been fully used which is true for the PS4 Southbridge also.
Well I was kidding but his theories are wrong and he's been calling other posters "clueless" for three years and seven pages.
I can't speak for Sony but the Xbox One S will be the first Xbox physically capable of playing UHD optical media.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Which is an argument that I have made that the Launch consoles would support UHD blu-ray and you disagreed. Which is it?
The Xtensa accelerators are used for vision processing and codecs which would not be the case with a hardware codec. AMD already uses the Xtensa processors for HEVC and gesture middleware and will use them for OpenVX acceleration. Additionally the accelerators can be used for other codecs and provide insurance against strong arm tactics by the HEVC patent holders.
I won't make any decisions yet either. The MS VP stated the XB1 has the hardware to support UHD BLu-ray and the Playstation VP said there is no HEVC codec in the PS4 while Microsoft has already released a HEVC profile 10 codec via firmware update for the XB1. If you take everything at face value the XB1 is going to support UHD blu-ray and the PS4 isn't. Let the console wars begin if this is true and I'll lose money on the Sony stock I own.
See above
HDR is part of the UHD standard and the HDMI port has provisions for the negotiation to determine if and what HDR scheme is supported. ATSC 3.0 supports HDR which means the browser supports HDR. The HDMI2 negotiation is passed through to the TEE where every HDR scheme should be able to be supported. It's the display that has the limitations.
One letter specifically mentions the Launch Consoles and the other makes no distinction and just lists the PS4 and XB1 as UHD capable. If the Launch consoles support UHD capable then according to the logic in a statement you made above, later models should also or it will be confusing to the public. Neither say anything about UHD Blu-ray, that is an assumption on my part for the Launch PS4 and XB1 in part supported by the MS VP stating it can support UHD BLu-ray. The 2015 PS4 version and the XB1 Slim have no possible reason to not support UHD BLu-ray as provably drives were/are available in 2015.
And we are done.
jeff_rigby
Banned
A little history to get you to understand where I'm coming from.c0de said:
Microsoft was bench testing multiple XB1s before the 2013 launch with a HEVC multi-view codec running on the Xtensa accelerators because they feared a RROD like episode. UHD Blu-ray doe not use the HEVC multi-view extension but multi-view is the most intensive and likely to be the most used version of the HEVC codec because it will be used for both Cable and Antenna 4K TV with multiple streams of 1080P or lower resolution in the HEVC stream thus the multi-view.
ATSC 3 sets the standard for HTML5 <video> MSE EME and for parts of Vidipath and the UHD Blu-ray digital bridge. For Microsoft's Playready ND and Vidipath to work across multiple platforms they must conform to the same standards. So everything waits for the HTML5 <video> EME MSE standard which includes trick modes and commercial insertion.
UHD Blu-ray is the precursor providing 4K media for 4K TVs like HD Blu-ray did for the 1080P TV. This time there will be a DRM standard across platforms provided by the browser which every platform must support because 4K media is delivered to a browser web page. ATSC 3 will support DRM because the HTML5 <video> MSE EME supports DRM. The common DRM chosen for Vidipath is Playready and for the UHD blu-ray digital bridge, the same Playready ND. The PS4 intellectual notice has Playready and WMDRM in the PS4 and the PS3 is getting a Playready embedded port.
There is a chicken and egg component for UHD BLu-ray which the digital bridge and Vidipath for Cable TV DVRs mandated by the FCC as well as Vidipath antenna tuners will help overcome and vice versa.
This is the big picture for the Xbox which I believe also applies to Sony. This plus the Microsoft VP stating the XB1 hardwre can support UHD blu-ray made me believe the drive is firmware update-able. I did the research as much as can be done. The two letters just confirm UHD Capable.
The FCC DSTAC is likely going to mandate an open Cable TV replacement for the Cable card allowing Manufacturers to write APPs that allow watching TV on your XB1 and PS4 using HTML5 <video> EME MSE. This is about 1.5 years off but Comcast is writing their own apps that do the same now with co-operation from the manufacturer.
Adam Tyner
Member
A PS4K/Neo/slim is hardly the same thing as an unlabeled, visually imperceptible revision. The Xbox One S is obvious proof. Are you saying that the S won't support UHD BD? How is any of this confusing to you?
You're wrong about HDR. Quote from the "Ultra HD Standard" that says otherwise. UHD Premium is not the same thing as Ultra HD.
On my phone and can't respond about the rest right now.
Oh, my sweet summer child.
Celebrimbor
Member
I dont think jeff realizes, that Stinkles is working for Microsoft...
That only means that I am part of the conspiracy or have myself been fooled by it.