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[wsippel]

That eDRAM isn't gonna shrink. Plus, my money is on TSMC as a manufacturer as Renesas seems to be gradually getting out of that biz. So combining the SOI IBM CPU (w/ its own eDRAM) with an AMD/Renesas CMOS part on one SoC would seem to be out of the question.

I wonder how far along AMD's ARM/GCN SoCs are. On 20nm or 28nm, I think they could get 128 alus down to 4-5w after playing with clocks. That is as long as my hunch is correct and they go for a small/medium tablet form factor.

Damn, that's alot of acronyms.

I think ARM Fusion APUs in both Nintendo's next handheld and home console are definitely possible.

 

[Fourth Storm]

That's another interesting avenue. We have yet to see what AMDs custom ARM cores will be like.

In any case, I just hope Nintendo doesn't repeat something like the 3DS going with ARM11 CPUs and weird Pica graphics, when chips greater than the Tegra 3 existed at the time in low power draws.

And HD > 3D.

Agreed on that last bit. Although, I do appreciate the 3D effects in games like 3D Land and ALBW.

Yeah, it's hard not to get excited, but we must try to be more realistic this time. At the rate they move, a few Cortex A9 cores wouldn't surprise me. But perhaps they have realized that times have changed and the mobile market is moving faster than ever before. If so, I can see a late 2015 release as feasible. They did introduce the DS after only 3 1/2 years or so of the GBA being on the market after all.

 

[AlStrong]

Lets say this would be an average SoC that would draw 4 watts, I don't think it would be a 10x reduction after removing all the console-only parts. The disk drive as a moving part takes a lot of voltage, the fan, the plethora of ports, let alone charging or powering something from that port, that would already reduce the power quite a bit.

hm... well, the disc drive will be around 5W for constant spin operation. The fan they use is rated up to 2.5W (I imagine that's high RPM/audible noise level though).

33W -> 25W ? So to hit 5W typical operation, that's still down to 20%.

Of course, there is the matter of fab differences and also the specific node design (bulk/SOI, SHP etc), but that's hard to quantify.

I dunno. Colour me skeptical (45nm Renesas to 28nm elsewhere).


----

Anyways, I suppose there's room to play around depending on what you're thinking for the device size, weight & battery.

iPad Air is roughly 4.6W (Anandtech 32.4WHr/7.07Hr) during a 3D game . Of course, the screen they use can also have an effect there. edit: Anand calibrates the screen brightness to 200 nits for the 3D test IIRC.


*shrug*

We don't really see how much benefit 28nm parts have over the last two generations of 32 and 45 because most chip makers take that chance to add more transistors to gain performance.

I'm talking more about the actual node transition characteristics. For example, TSMC claims 40% power savings between their 28nm and 40nm processes, but only 25% between 20nm and 28nm. It's slowing down.

 

[tipoo]

I'm talking more about the actual node transition characteristics. For example, TSMC claims 40% power savings between their 28nm and 40nm processes, but only 25% between 20nm and 28nm. It's slowing down.

I can't brain things right now, and I'm not sure if this disproves that, but I think you threw some half-nodes in there.
EDIT Nevermind, I indeed can't brain things right now


Main ITRS node Stopgap half-node
250 nm 220 nm
180 nm 150 nm
130 nm 110 nm
90 nm 80 nm
65 nm 55 nm
45 nm 40 nm
32 nm 28 nm
22 nm 20 nm
16 nm 14 nm
11 nm 10 nm

 

[AlStrong]

I can't brain things right now, and I'm not sure if this disproves that, but I think you threw some half-nodes in there.

TSMC did a slight PR stunt with the 45/40 naming and so forth. At any rate, 40 to 28nm is a full node just as 45 to 32 would be.

 

[wsippel]

Agreed on that last bit. Although, I do appreciate the 3D effects in games like 3D Land and ALBW.

Yeah, it's hard not to get excited, but we must try to be more realistic this time. At the rate they move, a few Cortex A9 cores wouldn't surprise me. But perhaps they have realized that times have changed and the mobile market is moving faster than ever before. If so, I can see a late 2015 release as feasible. They did introduce the DS after only 3 1/2 years or so of the GBA being on the market after all.

If my gut feeling is correct, I think Nintendo doesn't care about the latest and greatest in the CPU space. They didn't care about NEON and VMX on 3DS and Wii U, respectively. But they always stress the Wii U GPGPU capabilities, and they hired almost a dozen developers with experience in the field in Paris alone, some with a background in game development, some with a background in high performance computing. I think they're fully behind GPGPU - and, by extension, HSA. So I wouldn't be surprised if their next systems are extremely GPU centric, with very weak CPUs driving much more powerful GPUs. AMD's ARM based APUs could be nice templates, except they'd probably trade NEON for more shader units.

 

[blu]

If my gut feeling is correct, I think Nintendo doesn't care about the latest and greatest in the CPU space. They didn't care about NEON and VMX on 3DS and Wii U, respectively. But they always stress the Wii U GPGPU capabilities, and they hired almost a dozen developers with experience in the field in Paris alone, some with a background in game development, some with a background in high performance computing. I think they're fully behind GPGPU - and, by extension, HSA. So I wouldn't be surprised if their next systems are extremely GPU centric, with very weak CPUs driving much more powerful GPUs. AMD's ARM based APUs could be nice templates, except they'd probably trade NEON for more shader units.

Well, if we'd be objective, one cannot bolt neon onto an ARMv6, so neon in the 3ds was never an option, not with that cpu choice, anyway.

Re the ARM-based APUs - did AMD eventually become an architecture licensee? Because that's the only way they'd be able to strip neon from an ARMv8 core (which is what I assume they'd use in an APU). But if they'd strip anything, I'd rather they stripped thumb ; )

 

[Orniletter]

Ohhh !

Wsippel, any other bits you can give away ?

I mean, it is obvious/likely that Nintendo works on their next system, but it is always neat to hear a confirmation.

 

[wsippel]

Well, if we'd be objective, one cannot bolt neon onto an ARMv6, so neon in the 3ds was never an option, not with that cpu choice, anyway.

Re the ARM-based APUs - did AMD eventually become an architecture licensee? Because that's the only way they'd be able to strip neon from an ARMv8 core (which is what I assume they'd use in an APU). But if they'd strip anything, I'd rather they stripped thumb ; )

There were no ARM11s with NEON? My bad, sorry...

But yeah, I believe AMD is an ARM architecture licensee these days.

 

[prag16]

I'm still toying with the idea of a die-shrunk Wii U chipset in the next handheld. I know some people noted it was pad limited in terms of memory i/o shrinking, but there's ways around everything. These are already on old 40-45nm fabrication plants, even today we have 28nm available so if it's not starting production for another two years say, 28 will be very mature by then, and non-Intel fabs may already have 14nm by then.

It would benefit from starting with the Wii U install base of games rather than zero, the Wii U would benefit from extended support if a newer console replaces it on a quicker schedule.

As I've said before when you and/or others have brought this up, this really does make a shitload of sense, if it's technically feasible and cost effective, which could be possible for something launching in say early 2017 (making for a six year 3DS cycle which is reasonable enough).

EDIT: I guess on second though trying to stretch 3DS that far might be tough, especially if it's down YoY again in 2014. If we're looking at a 2016 launch it sounds like it could be tough to do something at a reasonable price point.

We'll see! The new speculation machine we have firing up here is exciting if nothing else.

 

[Phazon]

I'm crossing fingers for Nvidia Tegra K1 variant on next Nintendo handheld.

Nintendo doesn't have a good relationship with NVIDIA and while Tegra is a very strong and performing platform, the battery drain is horrible. Always has been a weak point of Tegra. I don't want a battery draining chip in a dedicated handheld

 

[tipoo]

Well, if we'd be objective, one cannot bolt neon onto an ARMv6, so neon in the 3ds was never an option, not with that cpu choice, anyway.

Re the ARM-based APUs - did AMD eventually become an architecture licensee? Because that's the only way they'd be able to strip neon from an ARMv8 core (which is what I assume they'd use in an APU). But if they'd strip anything, I'd rather they stripped thumb ; )

AMD is going for the full semicustom strategy going forward. They're doing it with their existing products, and I'm sure they'd do it for their future ARM products.

But for the love of god Nintendo, don't strip NEON out of ARMv8

One thing though, AMD sold its mobile GPU division - you may know the products it would have had as the Adreno graphics series. Notice any similarities to Radeon?

Now, they'd either have to licence out GPU IP, or make a completely new one lacking the patents that made their mobile graphics decent.

That eDRAM isn't gonna shrink.

Doesn't have to be eDRAM though, the types of memory used in the Wii processor isn't the same as the Wii U one but they made it work.

 

[diaspora]

I'm crossing fingers for Nvidia Tegra K1 variant on next Nintendo handheld.

nVidia and Intel are utter ass for console makers.

 

[GhostTrick]

Almost certainly off-topic, but I don't quite want to make a new thread, because it would go to shit quickly. Also, I'd need to post a source, and I don't really want to get people in trouble. Anyway, Nintendo apparently started working on a new platform in early 2013 and has already selected a vendor for the SoC after talking to several potential candidates. The SoC might be based on an existing design, but will be changed to fit Nintendo's requirements. I assume it's for their next handheld, though.

Most likely handheld... early 2013 ? That means we're stuck with Cortex A9 I guess...

 

[tronic307]

I think ARM Fusion APUs in both Nintendo's next handheld and home console are definitely possible.

I've been excited by this possibility since I heard AMD and ARM mentioned in the same article. Finally, a unified architecture for Nintendo platforms. This is what Nintendo's new R&D building in Kyoto is for, isn't it?

 

[Forsaken82]

Almost certainly off-topic, but I don't quite want to make a new thread, because it would go to shit quickly. Also, I'd need to post a source, and I don't really want to get people in trouble. Anyway, Nintendo apparently started working on a new platform in early 2013 and has already selected a vendor for the SoC after talking to several potential candidates. The SoC might be based on an existing design, but will be changed to fit Nintendo's requirements. I assume it's for their next handheld, though.

Isn't it pretty much common practice that new systems go through R&D within a year or 2 after release of the most recent system? Pretty sure I remember reading that MS started developing the XB1 back around when the 360 officially released.

 

[AzaK]

So its sort of a toss up, if its a home console, I would guess its for third party support. While Nintendo would continue to support the WiiU, they're would be minimal support from them. With a game at launch.

Handheld could see a 720p lcd screen, backwards compatibility, etc.

I'm not sure how useful 720p really is on a handheld, but then if Nintendo are going to build two platforms that can share each other's games they might end up opting for 720 as a standard. Next gen I could see 1080 being "Standard" amongst the other two consoles and Nintendo staying back one level again.

That Nvidia Tegra chip was all hype but didn't perform very very well or even close to spec. Which is why Nintendo had to change suppliers for the 3DS. Nintendo would be better off going with Power VR chips for their handhelds in future. They're more power efficient.

If Nintendo are making their next two system compatible in order to share software and tools more closely, would they really go with ARM or PPC again?

 

[tipoo]

That Nvidia Tegra chip was all hype but didn't perform very very well or even close to spec. Which is why Nintendo had to change suppliers for the 3DS. Nintendo would be better off going with Power VR chips for their handhelds in future. They're more power efficient.

Nintendo switched from Nvidia due to financial or business reasons, if it was performance even the subpar Tegra 3 would have performed miles better than what's currently in the 3DS. Even a cut down Tegra 3 with 2 CPUs would.

 

[GhostTrick]

Nintendo switched from Nvidia due to financial or business reasons, if it was performance even the subpar Tegra 3 would have performed miles better than what's currently in the 3DS. Even a cut down Tegra 3 with 2 CPUs would.

It was supposed to be Tegra 1, not 3.

 

[Phazon]

What about something like Temash. Could anyone see that as a possibility?

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Processors/AMD-2013-Mobile-Platforms-Temash-Kabini-and-Richland

I'm not a tech expert, so any pro's or cons from a tech savvy person is welcome

 

[GhostTrick]

What about something like Temash. Could anyone see that as a possibility?

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Processors/AMD-2013-Mobile-Platforms-Temash-Kabini-and-Richland

I'm not a tech expert, so any pro's or cons from a tech savvy person is welcome

I think Mullins would be a better candidate, since it's more powerfull while consuming less power. It's also a fanless design.
But then again, even Temash seems out if reach. It's Nintendo we're talking about. Even if in 2014, you can have Cortex A15 phones with 720p screen for 179€, Nintendo will fail to meet those expectations. If they found their partner in early 2013, and considering they aimed for less power hungry design, it's likely they choosed Cortex A7 design, which performance wise is slightly behind Cortex A9 which is powering PSVita.

 

[tipoo]

It was supposed to be Tegra 1, not 3.

Crap, I was wrong. But this says Tegra 2, not 1. I still think that may have beat what's in it.

http://3dsconnect.com/2010/09/27/nintendo-3ds-used-to-harness-tegra-2-chip/

 

[GhostTrick]

Crap, I was wrong. But this says Tegra 2, not 1. I still think that may have beat what's in it.

http://3dsconnect.com/2010/09/27/nintendo-3ds-used-to-harness-tegra-2-chip/

It's really likely to be Tegra 1 since it was back in 2009 and it was ARM11. But performances weren't good.

 

[prag16]

I think Mullins would be a better candidate, since it's more powerfull while consuming less power. It's also a fanless design.
But then again, even Temash seems out if reach. It's Nintendo we're talking about. Even if in 2014, you can have Cortex A15 phones with 720p screen for 179€, Nintendo will fail to meet those expectations. If they found their partner in early 2013, and considering they aimed for less power hungry design, it's likely they choosed Cortex A7 design, which performance wise is slightly behind Cortex A9 which is powering PSVita.

Imagine the shitstorm if the "4DS" sports weaker hardware than the Vita...

Though as has been said they could go with a "weak" CPU while using a GPU that makes a fool of the VIta.

 

[Phazon]

It's really likely to be Tegra 1 since it was back in 2009 and it was ARM11. But performances weren't good.

I have a Tegra 2 in my phone. Never again :') (dat battery usage )

Mullins sounds good, but this is something for this year. Would contradict a bit if the SoC was chosen a year ago already.

 

[GhostTrick]

Imagine the shitstorm if the "4DS" sports weaker hardware than the Vita...

Though as has been said they could go with a "weak" CPU while using a GPU that makes a fool of the VIta.

Heh, it's likely to happen this way. But I also expect them to use a better and newer GPU.
But I clearly gave up hoping this company to make smart design choices... by 2016, it would be easy to come with a 149€ handheld with Cortex A15 CPU which would be a lot more powerfull than Vita. But hey, It's likely they come up with something on par with Vita for 200€.

 

[masterwok]

Its codenamed 'latte' because its brown in color?

 

[Phazon]

Its codenamed 'latte' because its brown in color?

The codename of the Wii U was Project Café and the Cpu was codenamed Espresso.

 

[GhostTrick]

Now they could also surprise everyone and come with dual core ARMv8 CPU which would be really good... but one can dream )

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

How much memory we talking here for this handheld?

 

[tipoo]

I think Cortex A7 is an ok choice, if they went with four of them at a respectable clock. I'm going off memory but the Cortex A15 took something like 5x the die space to post 3x better performance, and we all know Nintendo is...Economical...With its die space.

Yeah, so long as they also paired that with something better than the now old 543MP4 in the Vita and the bandwidth to sustain it, and hopefully more memory capacity than it.

I'm not sure if I'm heading into dreamland territory yet, you just never know with the big N


AMD Mullins would be far more interesting though, custom designed ARM cores are usually better than ARMs own. Like I said the graphics part would be interesting since AMD sold its IP there which is now Adreno. It seems Mullins and Beema are using full fat GCN, though low clocked, like the Tegra K1 is using Kepler

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7514/amd-2014-mobile-apu-update-beema-and-mullins

 

[tipoo]

Hmm, did we speak too soon? AMD seems to be targetting Mullins mostly at tablets, which may mean the average power draw is too high for something like the NewDS.

 

[tronic307]

I'm hoping for ARM A57 based AMD APU for console, A53 for handheld, with cross compatible, scalable games. That way the console gets massive spillover from the handheld, in both software and user base. Denver cores would also be awesome, but I've heard rumors that Nvidia chips can be expensive.

 

[Azure J]

So apparently, I've had this post stuck in a window for a few hours now. I was going crazy wondering where my post was amid all the stuff going on in here now. Sorry if it's late but:

I'm crossing fingers for Nvidia Tegra K1 variant on next Nintendo handheld.

I'd honestly hope more that they're working closer with AMD for stuff like this. AMD is seriously getting aggressive with their APU design and given all the comments Nintendo/Iwata have made about getting their console and hardware architecture unified, I'd love to see something happen that minimizes all chances of anything that could be labeled "exotic" trickling down and maximizes the potential speed and breadth of output from day millisecond one. Furthermore, maturation of APU based technology and tools could come about impressively quickly thanks to foundations already in place between the PS4 and XB1.

 

[AzaK]

Now they could also surprise everyone and come with dual core ARMv8 CPU which would be really good... but one can dream )

Don't start. It'll just get everyone excited for no reason.

 

[prag16]

Don't start. It'll just get everyone excited for no reason.

Kinda like that Watson CPU and 1+ TF GPU everyone was excited about for Wii U...

 

[megabytecr]

Nintendo and HW, nothing to get excited about in this age in terms of raw power.

What I am excited and curious about is their new unified architecture. It is obvious that the console could play the handheld games, but I am curious to see if there is new technology to allow effortless console game downgrades to the handheld. Also I would believe this is something that will be shared with 3rd parties, something they can promote with Devs, as it would be one dev process, an almost effortless port, and the game in two consoles. This will win the indies for sure. I think Nintendo has the possibility to become the indie favorite next to the PC.

Also curious for changes in the handheld business, game prices, more e-shop exposure, more download only games to allow them to compete in the current market.

 

[lwilliams3]

Nintendo and HW, nothing to get excited about in this age in terms of raw power.

What I am excited and curious about is their new unified architecture. It is obvious that the console could play the handheld games, but I am curious to see if there is new technology to allow effortless console game downgrades to the handheld. Also I would believe this is something that will be shared with 3rd parties, something they can promote with Devs, as it would be one dev process, an almost effortless port, and the game in two consoles. This will win the indies for sure. I think Nintendo has the possibility to become the indie favorite next to the PC.

Also curious for changes in the handheld business, game prices, more e-shop exposure, more download only games to allow them to compete in the current market.

This is likely the reason why wsippel decided to post this info in this thread. Nintendo's decision with its portable's specs will likely be a major clue on what to expect from them for future hardware.

 

[Otakumegane]

Significantly more powerful than the Vita isn't going to happen is it.

 

[Jaagen]

So we can expect Snapdragon 600-ish performance and 1GB+ of RAM?

Also, is quad core really necessary? Apple manages just fine with it's dual core CPU's.

 

[SmokyDave]

Imagine the shitstorm if the "4DS" sports weaker hardware than the Vita...

Though as has been said they could go with a "weak" CPU while using a GPU that makes a fool of the VIta.

I doubt there'd be a shitstorm. Their next handheld having sub-Vita specs is pretty much expected at this point. They'll be very sensitive to launch price.

 

[Lumyst]

Significantly more powerful than the Vita isn't going to happen is it.

"When will they stop asking for more? Give them one, they ask for two. Give them two, they ask for four..." ;-) (just a lighthearted tease while paraphrasing Mr. Genyo Takeda.) I do wonder what kind of "experience" they will go for with the next hardware, if they do indeed continue with Mr. Takeda's current design philosophy. (And hopefully "having guts" isn't the most important requirement they were looking for when interviewing potential hardware suppliers.) If the next couple consoles are to be his last hardware (he's getting up there in age) I wonder how it'll turn out and what ideas will surround its design.

 

[Jaagen]

I doubt there'd be a shitstorm. Their next handheld having sub-Vita specs is pretty much expected at this point. They'll be very sensitive to launch price.

I think we'll get a slightly more powerful console(but not much) But I doubt it will have a 720p screen.

 

[GhostTrick]

I doubt there'd be a shitstorm. Their next handheld having sub-Vita specs is pretty much expected at this point. They'll be very sensitive to launch price.

I don't think so. A clear gap ? No, but I doubt that in terms of raw performance it would be sub-Vita. As I said, we can expect something on par or slightly behind in term of CPU, but I expect more ram and a beefier GPU.

 

[SmokyDave]

I think we'll get a slightly more powerful console(but not much) But I doubt it will have a 720p screen.

Sure, at or around the Vita, I could see that. I don't expect a 720p screen either, although I guess it depends on what is available at the time and whether they bother with BC.

I don't think so. A clear gap ? No, but I doubt that in terms of raw performance it would be sub-Vita. As I said, we can expect something on par or slightly behind in term of CPU, but I expect more ram and a beefier GPU.

Could be, like the Wii U to the PS3 / 360. That'll make for an interesting few months of launch titles being compared to the best of the Vita.

One thing's for sure though, it won't be a generational leap over the Vita and it won't even come close to smartphones. That really bums me out.

 

[Horse Armour]

I don't think so. A clear gap ? No, but I doubt that in terms of raw performance it would be sub-Vita. As I said, we can expect something on par or slightly behind in term of CPU, but I expect more ram and a beefier GPU.

It's not really that much of a stretch considering the fact that the 3DS had a lower effective resolution than the 7 year old PSP.

 

[tronic307]

Nintendo and HW, nothing to get excited about in this age in terms of raw power.

What I am excited and curious about is their new unified architecture. It is obvious that the console could play the handheld games, but I am curious to see if there is new technology to allow effortless console game downgrades to the handheld. Also I would believe this is something that will be shared with 3rd parties, something they can promote with Devs, as it would be one dev process, an almost effortless port, and the game in two consoles. This will win the indies for sure. I think Nintendo has the possibility to become the indie favorite next to the PC.

Also curious for changes in the handheld business, game prices, more e-shop exposure, more download only games to allow them to compete in the current market.

What if the handheld version was the only physical copy, with any added assets downloaded and installed on the console? Also, no GamePad; the handheld is the GamePad.

 

[SmokyDave]

It's not really that much of a stretch considering the fact that the 3DS had a lower effective resolution than the 7 year old PSP.

That's my joint largest concern (the other being whether it has a 2nd stick). What if they go with some shitty 6" 640x480 panel?

There's no reason to believe they won't, and little reason to expect them to use a decent screen. The 3DS screen fucking kills me and robs me of almost all enjoyment when I use the device. I really need them to use a better screen next time because they'll probably be the only dedicated handheld on the market.

 

[GhostTrick]

Sure, at or around the Vita, I could see that. I don't expect a 720p screen either, although I guess it depends on what is available at the time and whether they bother with BC.


Could be, like the Wii U to the PS3 / 360. That'll make for an interesting few months of launch titles being compared to the best of the Vita.

One thing's for sure though, it won't be a generational leap over the Vita and it won't even come close to smartphones. That really bums me out.

More like PSP to 3DS imo. Wii U's problem compared to competitors is the will to make a low power hungry hardware and a small one. But for handhelds, you don't have any choice: it's already small and low power hungry. This time, it's more of a cost choice and what will be available.

It's not really that much of a stretch considering the fact that the 3DS had a lower effective resolution than the 7 year old PSP.

True, but still, even with running a 3d screen and a second screen, 3DS was a decent leap over PSP.

 

[Log4Girlz]

That's my joint largest concern (the other being whether it has a 2nd stick). What if they go with some shitty 6" 640x480 panel?

There's no reason to believe they won't, and little reason to expect them to use a decent screen. The 3DS screen fucking kills me and robs me of almost all enjoyment when I use the device. I really need them to use a better screen next time because they'll probably be the only dedicated handheld on the market.

All the more reason to pinch pennies.