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Fraternity chanting the n-word

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I know this was discussed at length last night, but no this is not the same situation as working at an employer. OU is a public school, therefore a government agency. Government agencies are not allowed to punish students for reprehensible remarks. If OU decided to go further and expel students, they very well could face a lawsuit and would likely lose.

How is this even remotely true? The whole University / Free Speech thing was covered a lot during the Charlie Hebdo massacre as part of an intraspective on US free speech. In particular, http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/09/opinion/david-brooks-i-am-not-charlie-hebdo.html

...The University of Illinois fired a professor who taught the Roman Catholic view on homosexuality. The University of Kansas suspended a professor for writing a harsh tweet against the N.R.A. Vanderbilt University derecognized a Christian group that insisted that it be led by Christians...

People at public universities are routinely fired / reprimanded for what they say and do.
 
First amendment was established when racism was rampant lol. It's outdated. Racism shouldn't be allowed just because of this clause period. I'll stand by that.

My heart agrees, as raistlin said.

The reason they should not be expelled actually has little to do with their actions.

They should not be expelled because it sets up a precedent, that if challenged and supported by the courts, would endanger free speech in the future. We cannot predict what the future will be like; but history says that good people will need free speech in order to stand against injustice that is actively or passively supported by the state. This means that bad people must remain free to speak their minds in order to protect the ability of good people to affect positive change in the future.
 
That chant sounds like it should be part of that old timey propaganda thread. Horrifying

its likely the chant their daddy and their daddy's daddy sang in the frat, so probably was old timey. people in this thread thinking this isnt some well known chant within that frat are naive.
 
Looks like there's a 2nd video now.

Also

"There will never be a nigger at #SAE
There will never be a nigger at #SAE
You can hang'em from a tree,
but they'll never hang with me.
There will never be a nigger at #SAE

fixed.

These videos are indefensible IMO and the University has no choice but to drop the hammer
 
Always with the free speech argument.

Sure, say what you want, just don't be surprised when your free speech breaks other laws and you get punished for it.

Sheesh...
 
I wonder if this is some old fraternity chant they make pledges do or something. Outrageous.
Now that would be interesting, and I'd love to see it get investigated.



Local chapters of frats / sororities lose there charter all the time - and without long-term damage to the national brotherhood. And that makes sense. You can't always blame a large group for some of its members fucking up ... particularly given how remote the division of power is for these organizations.

If however you can demonstrate this is coming from the top or prevalent across a majority of chapters ... then you've got cause for shutting the whole thing down. If that's the case, I hope it happens.
 
I actually don't think the university will be able to expel these students. It's not like cheating which is a pretty straightforward honor code violation. Now what they can do is make life hellish for them - put notices on their official records, etc. But I think, if expelled, they've got a good 1st Amendment violation case.

I used to think universities shouldn't be in the Greek scene at all. That they should have no official status with a university whatsoever. But I've changed my mind. I think they should be 100% regulated by universities. That way you would have official oversight into all of their activities.
 
If it was a public school, a civil rights lawyer would be filing suit pretty quickly after that. A government agency, such as a public school, can't abridge free speech based on content. Now if you told your dean, "I'm going to beat the shit out of your fucking dumbass fa**** face" to his face, you'd get expelled pretty quickly after that. But that's illegal, so it's not quite analogous.

I suppose my perspective is skewed since I went to a private university.

As an aside, I looked up hate speech and the first amendment and stumbled upon this beauty:

American Bar Association said:
R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul, 505 U.S. 377 (1992), involved the juvenile court proceeding of a white 14-year-old who burned a cross on the front lawn of the only black family in a St. Paul, Minn., neighborhood. Burning a cross is a very hateful thing to do: it is one of the symbols of the Ku Klux Klan, an organization that has spread hatred and harm throughout this country. The burning cross clearly demonstrated to this family that at least this youth did not welcome them in the neighborhood. The family brought charges, and the boy was prosecuted under a Minnesota criminal law that made it illegal to place, on public or private property, a burning cross, swastika, or other symbol likely to arouse “anger, alarm, or resentment in others on the basis of race, color, creed, religion, or gender.” The case went all the way to the Supreme Court, which ruled that the Minnesota law was unconstitutional because it violated the youth’s First Amendment free speech rights.

That's an...interesting ruling.

Based on this precedent, if these students had painted swastikas or burned hanging effigies on the dorms of minority students, they still could not be expelled for expressing free speech, though you might get them on the vandalism charge. Amazing.
 
The part that says "You can hang'em from a tree" is what will get them in the most trouble. Hate speech that condones violence.

Yes they are ignorant, and oblivious to the fact that they are, at at the same time willfully it.

Amazingly, it seems like racism is turned into a "social trend" to bring you together with a group of peers?

Finally, they are way too happy in doing this.
 
While I had plenty of friends in perfectly fine fraternaties that had no issues with hazing or racism, (at least as far as I knew) I have to say that I never had personally seen explicit racism until I started going to fraternity events with my friends. Sure, there was the expected lack of minorities (horrible, really), but I didn't expect people to openly talk about racist acts their fraternity had performed, or how unwilling they were to accept minorities into their organization. This was really shocking to me, especially since we were all the same age. Weirder too, it was all localized within one particular fraternity,which other fraternities even called "The Racist One". It was so non-chalant, it drove me nuts.

It really changed the way I viewed racism.
 
The part that says "You can hang'em from a tree" is what will get them in the most trouble. Hate speech that condones violence.

Yes they are ignorant, and oblivious to the fact that they are, at at the same time willfully it.

Amazingly, it seems like racism is turned into a "social trend" to bring you together with a group of peers?

Finally, they are way too happy in doing this.

thier parents probably sing that song at every bbq, so its normal for them.
 
Thank god the university won't expel them for using a chant that involved "you can hang en from a tree"

They are just kids after all. What's the point in having consequences for racism? I'm sure they weren't even racist to begin with. Who hasn't chanted a racist creed that advocates murder at some point in their lives?
See, I know you're kidding. I'm freaked the fuck out that others aren't. It's..ugh.
 
How is this even remotely true? The whole University / Free Speech thing was covered a lot during the Charlie Hebdo massacre as part of an intraspective on US free speech. In particular, http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/09/opinion/david-brooks-i-am-not-charlie-hebdo.html

People at public universities are routinely fired / reprimanded for what they say and do.
That's a very interesting find, do you have more information on those cases? They would seem to be great First Amendment test cases.

EDIT:

Um... the first google hit for "University of Illinois fired a professor who taught the Roman Catholic view on homosexuality" is this:
An adjunct religion instructor barred from teaching by the University of Illinois after defending the Roman Catholic stance on homosexuality has been invited back to teach this fall.

Adjunct associate professor Kenneth Howell was reinstated on Thursday — a day after the deadline when his lawyers said they would sue the university for violating his academic freedom if administrators failed to reinstate him. (my emp.)

That re-instatement was temporary pending further review. This source (supportive of Kenneth Howell) covers the review:
ast July, ADF attorneys sent a letter to University of Illinois officials affirming Howell's constitutionally protected academic freedoms. Within two weeks, the university had re-instated Howell as a teacher for the fall semester – albeit with no admission of guilt on their part, and with the stipulation that an investigation of Howell's teachings would continue. In October, university officials completed that review and vindicated Howell, clearing him of all charges. (my emp.)

EDIT EDIT:

First google hit on "University of Kansas suspended a professor for writing a harsh tweet against the N.R.A." is this:
In September, the University of Kansas suspended David W. Guth, a tenured journalism professor, after he responded to the shootings at the Washington Navy Yard with this comment on Twitter: "#NavyYardShooting The blood is on the hands of the #NRA. Next time, let it be YOUR sons and daughters. Shame on you. May God damn you."

Many pro-gun politicians called for Guth to be fired, but he kept his job and the suspension has since been lifted. (my emp.)
 
Well, if every racist OU student were to get expelled, that school would thin out in a big way.

If the racism is targeting someone, I think expulsion suits. If someone is overheard just saying racist things to a friend on campus, I don't think it does. Certainly a meeting with the Dean of Students and probation, but not expulsion.

Anyway, these dumbshits will be dealing with quite a bit of crap from this, so at least there's that.
I think the hang em from a tree bit exacerbates an otherwise typical bit of racism. That invokes violence and terror and goes beyond a bunch of obnoxious man children screaming racial slurs.
 
See, I know you're kidding. I'm freaked the fuck out that others aren't. It's..ugh.

Well to be fair, they never said there won't be black members at SAE just that there won't be niggers at SAE. There's a difference between the two man, Chris Rock told me so. I mean I'm willing to be their best friend is black and the song doesn't bother him. Besides if rap music didn't use the N word then it would have gone away a long time ago and with it...racism. So when you think about it...rap music is the reason we have racism today.

Thanks 50 Cent.
 
its likely the chant their daddy and their daddy's daddy sang in the frat, so probably was old timey. people in this thread thinking this isnt some well known chant within that frat are naive.
Yeah, I don't believe for a minute that the chant originated at that particular chapter or was exclusive to one school.
 
This reminds me of that movie, Dear White People. Holy shit. And as much as I get that free speech needs to be validated, etc... I still think this should be punishable by something. But it's good I don't make those decisions because I'm not sure I'd keep the first amendment as open as it is..
 
Would this not be considered Hate Speech? Sounds like an incitement of violence to me. That is punishable. Free speech image issues? There is precedent for this type of thing.
 
Yeah, I don't believe for a minute that the chant originated at that particular chapter or was exclusive to one school.

It definitely wasn't. There's a link to a reddit earlier where people confirm knowing of it at several chapters.
 
First amendment was established when racism was rampant lol. It's outdated. Racism shouldn't be allowed just because of this clause period. I'll stand by that.

That's true but I don't see how it's relevant. The first amendment wasn't drafted so people could say racist shit, it was to prevent the over reach of corrupt government. The same amendment that lets these fucks sing this song prevented racist government officials from rounding up MLK and Malcolm for their ideas. The first amendment is absolute, we can't be making exceptions for the stuff that makes us really mad
 
There was an SAE branch when I went to college that wasn't even officially recognized by the university, and were the worst idiot frat-boy stereotypes you can imagine. A bunch of kids got suspended/expelled for being involved in it.

We had them at UCF in Orlando, got kicked out my first semester as a freshman for hazing. Greek Life at UCF tried so hard to act like it was a Southern school, like it was the only thing that mattered. A friend of mine checked them out for rush and was told he could join in the Spring as they had already filled their minority quota in the Fall lol.
 
Students of OU protested this morning. The head of the fraternity at the national level called an emergency board meeting Sunday night and they have closed the entire frat at OU. The president of OU said all students at that frat have to leave campus by midnight tonight.

That was some swift-ass justice.

That's great. Good on the administration of OU
 
nope. Was a NY state school.

that is quite the coincidence haha. there was an SAE chapter at CofC that was never recognized by the college (it might be now, it wasn't when I was there) and they were, in fact, a bunch of stereotypical frat-boy idiots. I forgot what they did but they got in trouble as a chapter and some of them got suspended haha. must be in the life-blood of that frat to do dumb shit.
 
We had them at UCF in Orlando, got kicked out my first semester as a freshman for hazing. Greek Life at UCF tried so hard to act like it was a Southern school, like it was the only thing that mattered. A friend of mine checked them out for rush and was told he could join in the Spring as they had already filled their minority quota in the Fall lol.

Hazing was what got them fucked at my school, too. I heard first-hand accounts and it was really, really horrible. To this day I can't wrap my head around how people could ever think the payoff was worth the torture, and conversely I can't understand the psychopathic mindset that actually enjoys inflicting that level of pain and humiliation on someone else.
 
Once again, I love how social media is outing the idiots and bringing rightfully deserved scorn onto those who deserve it.
 
We had them at UCF in Orlando, got kicked out my first semester as a freshman for hazing. Greek Life at UCF tried so hard to act like it was a Southern school, like it was the only thing that mattered. A friend of mine checked them out for rush and was told he could join in the Spring as they had already filled their minority quota in the Fall lol.
My first semester there was when they got kicked off for hazing. Crazy stuff.

As far as I know, they are now back. They lost their house, though.
 
See, I know you're kidding. I'm freaked the fuck out that others aren't. It's..ugh.

The entire premise that these 19+ year old individuals should be classified as kids is completely nonsensical. They understand the chant, and they sang it because they had no problems with it. It's infuriating seeing people apologize for clear cut racism, and then act like it's not a big deal, that it's normal.
 
Can you help clarify how the First Amendment applies in this case?

I think his point is mostly that it doesn't. People use it to defend why they say abhorrent shit but don't get that it doesn't mean they're free from reprisal because of that abhorrent shit. I'm not sure it's been a factor in this thread or this case yet though.
 
I think his point is mostly that it doesn't. People use it to defend why they say abhorrent shit but don't get that it doesn't mean they're free from reprisal because of that abhorrent shit. I'm not sure it's been a factor in this thread or this case yet though.
Except that it does. Can you (or him) explain how it wouldn't?
 
I did not say that a 20 year old doesn't know any better - I said that a 20 year old does a lot of stupid shit and shouldn't be barred from going to school (or, as some other posters on the first page or two mentioned, "be removed from society") because they are a dumbass.

Well if they know better they can be held responsible for it. They've created an atmosphere that is incompatible with civil order, fairness and equality in their school. If they (those identified in the video) are not dealt with harshly and sevrely then it sends a message to certainluy the black students in the schoool and the black folks who live in that broader community, that this shit isn't a big deal.

Well it is a big fucking deal.

If my kid did this I would disown the fucker. let alone expel him.
 
How is this even remotely true? The whole University / Free Speech thing was covered a lot during the Charlie Hebdo massacre as part of an intraspective on US free speech. In particular, http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/09/opinion/david-brooks-i-am-not-charlie-hebdo.html



People at public universities are routinely fired / reprimanded for what they say and do.
Were these students? Professors have a separate set of issues since they're employees of the institution. Academic freedom generally extends to whatever speech relevant to the educational process and discourse.

There is plenty of case law and precedent for employees and their freedom of speech. There are also established tests that courts rule on regarding this.

Teaching things like the Christian view of homosexuality in a class that has nothing to do with it is generally grounds for reprimand and review. Same for other topics. A student writing a paper about it is a completely different ballgame.
 
The test would be is cheating considered free speech or in general protected by the constitution. And that answer is no. Therefore the school is free to levy a punishment as they see fit.

A student conduct policy at a public school can't have provisions for limiting protected speech. Here's an article talking about a lawsuit Temple University lost by creating a policy inconsistent with how the 1st is intrepreted: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/08/05/temple

Hate speech isn't protected. Nor are fighting words.
 
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