Support NeoGAF

[SlimySnake]

If only there was some way to know what the PS5's CPU was capable of in a PC setting..... Oh, wait:

AMD 4700S Review: Defective PlayStation 5 Chips Resurrected

Break out the broken chips

www.tomshardware.com

The bottleneck in this regard, is that the fact that the board only has 4 lanes of PCIE Gen 2, but we're only going to be focusing on TimeSpy. So, from this chart, we already know that the CPU itself is indeed faster than a Ryzen 5 3600X in TimeSpy. As seen below:

AMD Ryzen 5 3600X review

We recently reviewed the Ryzen 7 3700X & Ryzen 9 3900X processors from AMD. How about the six core parts eh? Well, let's check out the new Ryzen 5 3600X in this review....

www.guru3d.com

Now, while you're here, let's click into a couple of pages of this review of the 3600X and see what this 2080Ti is doing in terms of performance...


Can we please just move off the fact that the CPU is the limiting factor here? Yes, we all know there are better CPUs on the market, no one is disputing that. But pigeonholing the PS5 Pro as "only 10% faster" due to using the same Zen2 CPU is downright trolling.

Additionally, take some time to read the following to understand what actual CPU bottlenecks look like in the real world, with GPU disparity:

Cross-Gen Face-Off: Xbox Series S vs Xbox One X

The first year of the new console generation has been quite unlike any other - Xbox One and PlayStation 4 releases are …

www.eurogamer.net

DF already got the CPU in the PS5 and XSX and did ran in game benchmarks. The CPU runs at 4.0 GHz so slightly higher than the PS5 Pro and still gets bitch slapped by the 3600 by 50-70%+. The zen 4 CPU is over 2.5x better with 2 fewer cores and 4 fewer threads.

 

[Del_X]

Which open world game is running at 30fps?

GTA VI. No serious update to the CPU means I'll be waiting some months for the PC version.

 

[Codeblew]

Because the game has to run on the lower spec console as well. The underlying code will have to be the same on the PS5 Pro as the base PS5. Just like the Series S dictates what the Series X can do.

#ifdef PS5_PRO
  // Do this
#else
  // Do that
#endif

 

[DenchDeckard]

DF already got the CPU in the PS5 and XSX and did ran in game benchmarks. The CPU runs at 4.0 GHz so slightly higher than the PS5 Pro and still gets bitch slapped by the 3600 by 50-70%+. The zen 4 CPU is over 2.5x better with 2 fewer cores and 4 fewer threads.

It's wild that the 3600 is such a better CPU than those in the consoles

 

[DaGwaphics]

TimeSpy is cherry picked? Every game is CPU limited and bottlenecked?

How about, Ryzen 5 3600 in Hitman III?

From Ryzen 5 3600 to 5800X3D: The Big Upgrade

Going from user feedback, it sounds like many are planning a final AM4 upgrade and you may be most interested in going all out on the 5800X3D,...

www.techspot.com

The r5 3600 at times is much better than a 4700g in games (varies a lot game by game up to 50-100%), the one synthetic CPU benchmark you utilized to compare them doesn't tell the whole story. The 32mb cache on the 3600 is doing its thing.

 

[MisterXDTV]

I have yet to get a PS5 and have decided to wait and get the Pro, looking forward to seeing what the GPU upgrade, AI and ML will achieve. One area I think could help out developers is the extra RAM available to them.

I can see the Pro coming in at £499. Has it been confirmed if the Pro is still coming with a 1TB drive?

Yes, 1 TB drive just like the Slim

 

[Mr Moose]

GTA VI. No serious update to the CPU means I'll be waiting some months for the PC version.

Game isn't out, do you have any examples? You said "Open world games will still run at 30fps".

 

[SlimySnake]

Despite the Calisto Protocol having a 60FPS mode on current gen consoles?

Callisto's 60 FPS mode doesnt have RT. They disabled it due to it being heavy on the CPU. The PS5 Pro should be designed to offer 60 fps in RT modes for games like Callisto, Star Wars, Forspoken, Cyberpunk, Watch Dogs, hogwarts, and the dozens of other games that have RT only in the 30 fps mode or skip RT altogether on consoles like Alan Wake 2, Sony's own Returnal and Suicide Squad.

 

[Gaiff]

If only there was some way to know what the PS5's CPU was capable of in a PC setting..... Oh, wait:

AMD 4700S Review: Defective PlayStation 5 Chips Resurrected

Break out the broken chips

www.tomshardware.com

The bottleneck in this regard, is that the fact that the board only has 4 lanes of PCIE Gen 2, but we're only going to be focusing on TimeSpy. So, from this chart, we already know that the CPU itself is indeed faster than a Ryzen 5 3600X in TimeSpy. As seen below:

AMD Ryzen 5 3600X review

We recently reviewed the Ryzen 7 3700X & Ryzen 9 3900X processors from AMD. How about the six core parts eh? Well, let's check out the new Ryzen 5 3600X in this review....

www.guru3d.com

Now, while you're here, let's click into a couple of pages of this review of the 3600X and see what this 2080Ti is doing in terms of performance...



Can we please just move off the fact that the CPU is the limiting factor here? Yes, we all know there are better CPUs on the market, no one is disputing that. But pigeonholing the PS5 Pro as "only 10% faster" due to using the same Zen2 CPU is downright trolling.

Additionally, take some time to read the following to understand what actual CPU bottlenecks look like in the real world, with GPU disparity:

Cross-Gen Face-Off: Xbox Series S vs Xbox One X

The first year of the new console generation has been quite unlike any other - Xbox One and PlayStation 4 releases are …

www.eurogamer.net

Sadly, benchmarks like these for the CPU especially, aren't representative of real world performance at all. They scale perfectly with core count and clock speeds, which isn't the case in games that still heavily favor single core speed and large caches, both things that the PS5/Pro lack. Hell, those benchmarks scaled fantastically with SLI/CrossFireX when they were still a thing.

 

[Allandor]

For those who were around in 2015-16, was there so much negativity surrounding the specs of the PS4 Pro? Jesus Christ, so much whining everywhere.

The ps4 pro had more than doubled the GPU. But the memory bumb was a bit ... weak. Yes it wasn't enough to get 4k all over the place, but at least it really got some nice res boost.
Also the ps4 pro replaced the ps4 at the price point, while the ps4 got really cheaper (unlike the current situation where the costs don't go down).

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

ITT people think that CPU is not important in games. I love NeoGAF sometimes, Songaf in particular.

I dont get it... what is in it for you? You are deliberately twisting what is being said and peddling an agenda that honestly holds no water. Why? You hate consoloes that much? Or is this just a Playstation thing?

You've cherry picked some GPU limited benchmarks and used that as evidence there isn't a CPU bottleneck in CPU limited games?

Digital Foundry explained in the article that there will still be CPU limitations with the Pro in CPU limited scenarios. People understandably expected a Pro console to be markedly more powerful in the CPU department so it could turn 30fps games into 60fps ones, but instead the benefit - while welcome - will be relatively minor. I think that's going to be a hard sell to people.

Why are people just ignoring the 9% in front of them and seeking out the 1 percent that proves their own point? And you talk about cherry picking?

Ok... lets look at this.

1. Yes. The PS5 CPU can be a bottleneck. But that is literally in only like probably less than 10% of all games released on the PS5. Every game that has a 60fps mode on the PS5 currently, will not be having a CPU bottleneck on the PS5pro. Be that from a combination of all around better architecture, better RT hardware where applicable, faster GPU, more bandwidth....etc.
   
   
2. You are borderline lying at worst, or being disingenuous at best. Again... and hopefully for the last time, THE MAJORITY of games released on the PS5, have a 60fps mode. If a game has such a mode, then it means that the CPU can handle it. In those cases, the issue is the GPU cannot keep up. And hence it underperforms. The PS5pro will fix that. Again, Alan wake, Pandora, Baldurs gate... ALL have 60fps modes. You know what,. it would actually be easier to make a list of games that do not have a 60fps mode. And that should tell you everything you need to know. But more importantly, it should tell you what informs the design decisions made.
   
   
3. Lastly, why I keep throwing around words like disingenuous and agendas... you know this is a console, so they always work within vastly different parameters than what you would see on PC, and yet you are literally here making an argument, that sonys choice to make hardware that would benefit 100% of all games released on their platform, is flawed and what they should have done is focus on hardware that would benefit like 5% of the games instead. That doesn't sound weird to you?

 

[MonkeyClaw36]

Callisto's 60 FPS mode doesnt have RT. They disabled it due to it being heavy on the CPU. The PS5 Pro should be designed to offer 60 fps in RT modes for games like Callisto, Star Wars, Forspoken, Cyberpunk, Watch Dogs, hogwarts, and the dozens of other games that have RT only in the 30 fps mode or skip RT altogether on consoles like Alan Wake 2, Sony's own Returnal and Suicide Squad.

This alone is a damn good upgrade if im honest. Depending on the price difference between the base and Pro of course.

 

[Zathalus]

Their flaw is mistaking PC performance for console performance

The PS5 performs more or less like a Zen 2 processor in Battlefield 2042. Both Zen 2 and the PS5 drop to 50fps minimums in the 128 player mode.

Not really a great example to use to try and prove a big difference between the two.

 

[Radical_3d]

Callisto's 60 FPS mode doesnt have RT. They disabled it due to it being heavy on the CPU. The PS5 Pro should be designed to offer 60 fps in RT modes for games like Callisto, Star Wars, Forspoken, Cyberpunk, Watch Dogs, hogwarts, and the dozens of other games that have RT only in the 30 fps mode or skip RT altogether on consoles like Alan Wake 2, Sony's own Returnal and Suicide Squad.

So, we are assuming that a hardware that has 2-3 times faster RT plus 300TOPs all up in yo' face isn't going to have 60fps RT? Ok.

 

[SlimySnake]

But all that work was not necessary, all you have proved is that this thing varies on a game-by-game basis. What you needed to do was take the work of sony, Nvidia and AMD. And all parties have literally spelt out exactly what DLSS, FSR and PSSR cost. How devs use that... is a different matter entirely.

I think it was necessary because you said it was 7% based on the math you and snc did by looking at the 2ms figure. As i showed, thats clearly not the case with it going from 20-35%. I have been doing this for a long time on PC going back to 2019 when DLSS first came out and the hit to performance wasnt this high. FSR2, DLSS2, and now PSSR will have a very substantial hit to performance. To say otherwise its simply inaccurate and needs to be corrected.

You are free to assume that it wont, I am not here to change your mind, but lets not act like I am saying something completely outrageous. i am speaking from experience, from looking at benchmarks and doing a lot of them myself. I could also act all outraged whenever you simply speak from your knowledge base without running any of the benchmarks but i give your opinion the respect it deserves regardless. Lets afford each other the same courtesy.

 

[yamaci17]

So, we are assuming that a hardware that has 2-3 times faster RT plus 300TOPs all up in yo' face isn't going to have 60fps RT? Ok.

not with the zen 2 CPU



22:48

3060ti + 3600 = extreme bottleneck 30-36 fps with ray tracing. GPU is just sleeping waiting for CPU to do its job

half the gpu is underutilized, which means with a 2x faster CPU, 3060ti would've pushed for 60 fps in this scene. but it can't, due to CPU being an extreme bottleneck

 

[Dr.D00p]

4K PSSR Quality mode at a locked 40fps (in a 120Hz wrapper) will likely be as good as you'll get in GTA VI on the pro.

Which is perfectly fine, IMO.

 

[SABRE220]

Lets put this to rest shall we?

Ps5 processor is roughly an AMD Ryzen 7 5800X
Ps5 GPU is roughly an AMD Radeon RX 6800

Let's throw these bastards in a Bottleneck calculator shall we?

1440P (assuming upscaling from this to 4K):
0% on GPU heavy tasks

Native 4K (which will never happen as we all know)
5,5% Which is negligible So when the GPU needs help, the CPU can still catch up with the gpu if needed.

Add the fact that the PS5 is way more effective in using its resources than a pc (which mostly negates the fact that its a toned down desktop cpu or even nudging towards mobile) and we can safely say we won't see any bottlenecking when upscaling to 4K from a lower internal resolution, as is the way consoles work.

Will future games possibly bottleneck the CPU? Sure! But thats also the case with PC.
Only difference is console owners are stuck with it.

Depending on what the Pro will cost, it could be a nice step up from the og PS5.

Yet people expect performance figures which go through the roof. Want that? Sit this Gen out and fucking wait.

The pro cpu is actually slower than a 2700x let alone a ryzen 5800x...

 

[SoloCamo]

Lets put this to rest shall we?

Ps5 processor is roughly an AMD Ryzen 7 5800X
Ps5 GPU is roughly an AMD Radeon RX 6800

Let's throw these bastards in a Bottleneck calculator shall we?

Not even remotely true (we could only wish even the pro model comes near a 5800X) and the current PS5 GPU is not 6800 level, either. Do not rely on those bottleneck calculators just like the majority of the youtube benchmark channels which are completely non sense numbers.

As far as CPU bottlenecks it completely depends on the game. There are games that at 4k my old 4790k could push my 6900XT and yet other games at the same resolution that my 11900k is majorly bottlenecking my 6900XT.

Sony really needed to slap a better CPU in this. Regardless, the extra GPU horsepower will help keep the resolution up for a cleaner image which is very much welcomed.

 

[Celcius]

I guess we ARE going to actually get a Pro at this point.
I assume this means the PS6 won't be coming until 2028 then.

 

[MisterXDTV]

I guess we ARE going to actually get a Pro at this point.
I assume this means the PS6 won't be coming until 2028 then.

That's the plan: 2020-2024-2028

 

[yamaci17]

I dont get it... what is in it for you? You are deliberately twisting what is being said and peddling an agenda that honestly holds no water. Why? You hate consoloes that much? Or is this just a Playstation thing?

Why are people just ignoring the 9% in front of them and seeking out the 1 percent that proves their own point? And you talk about cherry picking?

Ok... lets look at this.

1. Yes. The PS5 CPU can be a bottleneck. But that is literally in only like probably less than 10% of all games released on the PS5. Every game that has a 60fps mode on the PS5 currently, will not be having a CPU bottleneck on the PS5pro. Be that from a combination of all around better architecture, better RT hardware where applicable, faster GPU, more bandwidth....etc.
   
   
2. You are borderline lying at worst, or being disingenuous at best. Again... and hopefully for the last time, THE MAJORITY of games released on the PS5, have a 60fps mode. If a game has such a mode, then it means that the CPU can handle it. In those cases, the issue is the GPU cannot keep up. And hence it underperforms. The PS5pro will fix that. Again, Alan wake, Pandora, Baldurs gate... ALL have 60fps modes. You know what,. it would actually be easier to make a list of games that do not have a 60fps mode. And that should tell you everything you need to know. But more importantly, it should tell you what informs the design decisions made.
   
   
3. Lastly, why I keep throwing around words like disingenuous and agendas... you know this is a console, so they always work within vastly different parameters than what you would see on PC, and yet you are literally here making an argument, that sonys choice to make hardware that would benefit 100% of all games released on their platform, is flawed and what they should have done is focus on hardware that would benefit like 5% of the games instead. That doesn't sound weird to you?

and you're doing reverse cherry picking. here's how

- due to console jump being smaller, and pandemic, crossgen was longer than it is supposed to. even games like hogwarts legacy eventually landed on PS4. returnal can be ported to PS4 and only limitation would be the HDD (it runs very well on stuff like gtx 1050ti). this is one of the biggest reasons most games still kept having 60 FPS modes
- majority of 60 fps games are crossgen titles
- the actual "nextgen" games have just begun, and most of them exhibit CPU boundness problems. trying to paint a good picture by showcasing games like god of war ragnarok, spiderman, etc. is reverse cherry picking because they're not representative

technically ps4 can run all the library of ps2 and ps3 at 60 fps, heck maybe 120 FPS. does that make ps4 a 60/120 fps console? ps5 being able to brute force ps4 or ps4-gen worthy games at 60 fps is not that impressive for me and I cannot take that as a way to "this consoles' cpu is capable for 60 fps".

reality is, jedi survivor (ray tracing) and dragon dogma 2 (probably ray tracing) are the real representatives of how third party games going forward will run on console CPUs with ray tracing involved. at least for me. they may not be for you. in that case, we would have to agree to disagree

 

[Radical_3d]

3060ti + 3600 = extreme bottleneck 30-36 fps with ray tracing. GPU is just sleeping waiting for CPU to do its job

Isn't that for what ray reconstruction is? A 3060ti has 2/3 of the TOPs of a PS5Pro but nVidia likes to lock features to hardware generations like Apple.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

The people that never know why the PS5 performs well, are telling you how the PS5 Pro will perform . . .

 

[MisterXDTV]

reality is, jedi survivor (ray tracing) and dragon dogma 2 (probably ray tracing) are the real representatives of how third party games going forward will run on console CPUs with ray tracing involved. at least for me. they may not be for you. in that case, we would have to agree to disagree

But we don't know how PS5 Pro handles ray-tracing. They could offload part of it to the GPU instead of the CPU to remove the possible bottleneck

Why people here keep talking like Cerny is an idiot that doesn't know what he's doing???

It happened already 4 years ago and we know how that turned out....

The people that never know why the PS5 performs well, are telling you how the PS5 Pro will perform . . .

EXACTLY!!! It's hilarious

 

[MonkeyClaw36]

I dont get it... what is in it for you? You are deliberately twisting what is being said and peddling an agenda that honestly holds no water. Why? You hate consoloes that much? Or is this just a Playstation thing?

Why are people just ignoring the 9% in front of them and seeking out the 1 percent that proves their own point? And you talk about cherry picking?

Ok... lets look at this.

1. Yes. The PS5 CPU can be a bottleneck. But that is literally in only like probably less than 10% of all games released on the PS5. Every game that has a 60fps mode on the PS5 currently, will not be having a CPU bottleneck on the PS5pro. Be that from a combination of all around better architecture, better RT hardware where applicable, faster GPU, more bandwidth....etc.
   
   
2. You are borderline lying at worst, or being disingenuous at best. Again... and hopefully for the last time, THE MAJORITY of games released on the PS5, have a 60fps mode. If a game has such a mode, then it means that the CPU can handle it. In those cases, the issue is the GPU cannot keep up. And hence it underperforms. The PS5pro will fix that. Again, Alan wake, Pandora, Baldurs gate... ALL have 60fps modes. You know what,. it would actually be easier to make a list of games that do not have a 60fps mode. And that should tell you everything you need to know. But more importantly, it should tell you what informs the design decisions made.
   
   
3. Lastly, why I keep throwing around words like disingenuous and agendas... you know this is a console, so they always work within vastly different parameters than what you would see on PC, and yet you are literally here making an argument, that sonys choice to make hardware that would benefit 100% of all games released on their platform, is flawed and what they should have done is focus on hardware that would benefit like 5% of the games instead. That doesn't sound weird to you?

All this and the fact people compare consoles to pc's.
Consoles arent just plastic boxes with PC components. They work WAY differently when it comes to CPU usage, bandwidth etc, etc.
The whole damn thing is designed for gaming.

It's not comparable.

 

[Del_X]

Game isn't out, do you have any examples? You said "Open world games will still run at 30fps".

If you think GTA VI is going to run at 60fps just lol
lmao even

There's also Dragon's Dogma 2 but I'm sure I'll get some pedantic "but that isn't real open world"

 

[yamaci17]

But we don't know how PS5 Pro handles ray-tracing. They could offload part of it to the GPU instead of the CPU to remove the possible bottleneck

Why people here keep talking like Cerny is an idiot that doesn't know he's doing???

It happened already 4 years ago and we know how that turned out....

bottleneck in this case is BVH structures and it is extremely single threaded in jedi and dragon's dogma 2. these are 3rd party games we're talking about, their developers won't use any special sauce specifiic to PS5. they code their games so that it can run on 3 different platforms (xbox, pc, ps5)

ratchet clank and spiderman can hit 80+ fps with ray tracing without much of a CPU limitation on PS5. but in return, nixxes had to do massive work and literally had to rebuild the ray tracing entirely from scratch just so that they can port it to PC. as a result, those games are insanely cpu bound on PC while they're really GPU bound on PS5

it is already possible to hit high framerates alongside with BVH structures and sony 1st party games prove it.

 

[rickybooby87]

DF already got the CPU in the PS5 and XSX and did ran in game benchmarks. The CPU runs at 4.0 GHz so slightly higher than the PS5 Pro and still gets bitch slapped by the 3600 by 50-70%+. The zen 4 CPU is over 2.5x better with 2 fewer cores and 4 fewer threads.


Removed images for scroll reasons, but no one denies the performance delta.

Using their data, I pulled the following numbers from their article (all 1440P settings):

COD Blackops
Low 51
avg 86
High 125

Crysis 3
low 70
avg 121
high 262

Metro
low 46
avg 86
high 106

CS:GO
Low 102
avg 145
high 203

Cyber Punk
low 24
avg avg 41
high 60

Flight Sim
low 25
avg 31
high 35


Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[SoloCamo]

But we don't know how PS5 Pro handles ray-tracing. They could offload part of it to the GPU instead of the CPU to remove the possible bottleneck

Certain things have to be run by specific hardware. If we could easily offload everything to the GPU trust me they'd be doing it already.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

But we don't know how PS5 Pro handles ray-tracing. They could offload part of it to the GPU instead of the CPU to remove the possible bottleneck

Why people here keep talking like Cerny is an idiot that doesn't know he's doing???

It happened already 4 years ago and we know how that turned out....



EXACTLY!!! It's hilarious

Did they even consider the smartshift tech? Have they still not figured out the PS5 has twice the I/O throughput of the Xbox and a unified memory pool. It's like they see stats for two parts and can't think of a system as a whole.

 

[MonkeyClaw36]

Not even remotely true (we could only wish even the pro model comes near a 5800X) and the current PS5 GPU is not 6800 level, either. Do not rely on those bottleneck calculators just like the majority of the youtube benchmark channels which are completely non sense numbers.

As far as CPU bottlenecks it completely depends on the game. There are games that at 4k my old 4790k could push my 6900XT and yet other games at the same resolution that my 11900k is majorly bottlenecking my 6900XT.

Sony really needed to slap a better CPU in this. Regardless, the extra GPU horsepower will help keep the resolution up for a cleaner image which is very much welcomed.

I pulled these numbers from techsites, so if they are wrong with the cpu/ gpu comparison then I apoligize.

Its just to show that there isnt a bottleneck on a non streamlined system (pc). So we can safely say it wont be the case on a system designed purely for pushing polygons.
The hardware department at sony surely knows t they are doing and thats my point.

People should stop looking at numbers which are pure marketing BS and see the damn thing in action before making assumptions.

It'll run fine.
It'll run current games faster or with more graphical fidelity.

Sony gives people what they want and then they start shouting like a bunch of spoiled autistic brats.
You can't expect High End Pc performance for a midrange price. Yet people still expect this in some twisted, fucked up way.

Ungrateful shits the lot of 'em. And they will still buy it, going to the store with their jell-o spines.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Did they even consider the smartshift tech? Have they still not figured out the PS5 has twice the I/O throughput of the Xbox and a unified memory pool. It's like they see stats for two parts and can't think of a system as a whole.

My guess is that we will bump these posts in November and have a good laugh as usual

 

[DenchDeckard]

That PSSR is going to be doing some magic I think. Theres no way they won't have tested this thing and put it out if they weren't happy with the results. Why else would they go with it?

 

[Mr Moose]

If you think GTA VI is going to run at 60fps just lol
lmao even

There's also Dragon's Dogma 2 but I'm sure I'll get some pedantic "but that isn't real open world"

No I am asking for actual examples, as in games right now. "Open world games will still run at 30fps"

 

[splattered]

If people are already whining about Pro machines... i really hope that the true "next gen" machines are somewhat modular. I know people say "it would be too hard to optimize for all the different specs" or "just get a PC" but i'd still like to see it happen so we have the option of spec bumping through the next generation and skipping a mid-gen refresh altogether cause it wouldn't be necessary.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I think it was necessary because you said it was 7% based on the math you and snc did by looking at the 2ms figure. As i showed, thats clearly not the case with it going from 20-35%. I have been doing this for a long time on PC going back to 2019 when DLSS first came out and the hit to performance wasnt this high. FSR2, DLSS2, and now PSSR will have a very substantial hit to performance. To say otherwise its simply inaccurate and needs to be corrected.

You are free to assume that it wont, I am not here to change your mind, but lets not act like I am saying something completely outrageous. i am speaking from experience, from looking at benchmarks and doing a lot of them myself. I could also act all outraged whenever you simply speak from your knowledge base without running any of the benchmarks but i give your opinion the respect it deserves regardless. Lets afford each other the same courtesy.

Again... I am not saying there isn't a cost. It just happens to be that how you look at that cost and how I look at it is different.

Let me try and make my position very clear.

- Sony has said that the cost of using PSSR, is 2ms if going from 1080p > 4K with a target of 60fps. This is coming from sony and their PSSR. For their console, from their testing. That is what I am running with. And if you are looking at a total render time of 16ms, 2ms is like 15%, and if it were 33ms, then 2ms is like 7%. That is what I said before.

I am fully aware that this can vary from game to game, just like your test showed, but that is not pertinent to this discussion because we just can never know. What is bankable though, is that Sony has stated what the actual cost of using PSSR is. How a dev uses that in their engine, is a different matter entirely.

- What my real issue was with you and the whole cost thing, is that I felt you are taking a very specific use case scenario that paints the system in a bad light at best... r simple makes no sense at worst. Basically, you were pushing this point that rendering at zz native rez, cost less than rendering at xyz native rez + PSSR. Which on its own is 100% true, but is not looking at it in how it actually will be used on the PS5pro. Which when considered, makes this entire argument chain, moot.

PS5pro main premise is to get the highest framerate while pushing the best image quality possible. Now they can do this in one of two ways. Take the PS5 1080p performance mode as a base, or take the PS5 2160p fidelity mode as a base. In both cases, they start from the base PS5 fidelity or performance modes. So i just don't see the point of arguing about "costs" when what the PS5pro is attempting to do will result in a net positive performance result.

Eg. They end up with an internal 1296p-1440p that is reconstructed to 4K using PSSR running at 65fps. If they had just skipped PSSR and just used 1440p+TAA would they have been averaging 75fps+ instead? OF COURSE. Everyone knows this, but that is not the point of the PS5pro. 1440p+PSSR 4K will look better than just native 1440p+TAA. But 1440p+PSSR 4K, will sure as hell cost less than 4K + TAA. And that is the point.

Now knowing this, why is what PSSR cost relevant?

 

[MisterXDTV]

If people are already whining about Pro machines... i really hope that the true "next gen" machines are somewhat modular. I know people say "it would be too hard to optimize for all the different specs" or "just get a PC" but i'd still like to see it happen so we have the option of spec bumping through the next generation and skipping a mid-gen refresh altogether cause it wouldn't be necessary.

A modular console is, by definition, no longer a console

The whiners can move to PC and be happy

And no IT'S NOT NECESSARY to buy the mid-gen console, it's an OPTION

 

[Gaiff]

Certain things have to be run by specific hardware. If we could easily offload everything to the GPU trust me they'd be doing it already.

Obviously, but he's saying "part of it" and talking about RT. Apparently, the top-level BVH structure can be done either on the CPU or GPU. In Frontiers of Pandora, it's done on the GPU on PC but on the CPU on consoles to free up GPU resources.

 

[Daneel Elijah]

If people are already whining about Pro machines... i really hope that the true "next gen" machines are somewhat modular. I know people say "it would be too hard to optimize for all the different specs" or "just get a PC" but i'd still like to see it happen so we have the option of spec bumping through the next generation and skipping a mid-gen refresh altogether cause it wouldn't be necessary.

If Microsoft do try to have a console early to not be a frontal concurent to Sony and somehow succeed we will have endless crossgen periods. At this point your modular console will become a lot easier to see happen. The cost will just be that most games will still play on PS5 by 2035...

 

[rickybooby87]

Callisto's 60 FPS mode doesnt have RT. They disabled it due to it being heavy on the CPU. The PS5 Pro should be designed to offer 60 fps in RT modes for games like Callisto, Star Wars, Forspoken, Cyberpunk, Watch Dogs, hogwarts, and the dozens of other games that have RT only in the 30 fps mode or skip RT altogether on consoles like Alan Wake 2, Sony's own Returnal and Suicide Squad.

Call of Duty Black Ops had 60FPS and RT shadows. Just to be clear, what's the benchmark we're aiming for? 60FPS and RTGI? 60FPS and RT Reflections at full res? Half res?

 

[Fake]

ITT people think that CPU is not important in games. I love NeoGAF sometimes, Songaf in particular.

Even more funny when most of them are PC users.

 

[MisterXDTV]

If Microsoft do try to have a console early to not be a frontal concurent to Sony and somehow succeed we will have endless crossgen periods. At this point your modular console will become a lot easier to see happen. The cost will just be that most games will still play on PS5 by 2035...

They won't succeed, so don't worry....

 

[Bojji]

What you are forgetting here is the way consoles are designed. Its known that the PS5 is VERY efficient when it comes to instructions and processing due to the architecture of the system. You cant compare it to a PC solely based on Ghz and pipelines.

We don't know how efficient it is, we don't have any solid info about that. GPU tests done by DF shows that PS5 trades blows with 6700 - equivalent PC GPU, this shows that there aren't any magic optimizations done on consoles.

Look at the DF GPU vs PS5 threads where people argued that the CPU they used wasn't even important enough to mention.

Those tests were GPU limited so CPU wasn't important as long as it wasn't bottlenecking GPU.

3600X is stronger than console CPUs based on what? Did you gloss over the TimeSpy scores for the 4700S which is a defective PS5 APU?

And yes, dropping the resolution down to 1080P and 720P is great for finding the absolute maximum amount of frames a CPU can process when there is no GPU bottleneck.

Also, are we really comparing a 7700X/RTX4090 against the PS5 Pro's CPU/GPU setup to prove that it won't be capable of hitting 60FPS? Despite the Calisto Protocol having a 60FPS mode on current gen consoles?

Why are we forgetting that we already have 30fps,60fps and 120fps frame rate targets on current gen? Just because the XSX can't run Starfield at 60FPS doesn't mean another system cant.

You can see where 3600 is better than PS5/4700S:

PS5:

3600:

Ryzen 3600 is also 4.2GHz.

Cache alone can make massive difference on Zen processors:



Callisto is running without ant RT in performance mode on consoles and RT makes it this CPU limited on PC.

I dont get it... what is in it for you? You are deliberately twisting what is being said and peddling an agenda that honestly holds no water. Why? You hate consoloes that much? Or is this just a Playstation thing?

I don't like bullshit, that's the thing. There are many people here that don't have aby idea how games utilize hardware yet act like experts and spread bullshit.

You can see my post history, I'm mostly on PS side and I was a console player most of my life - even PS fanboy back in PS3 days (dark times...) but I won't stay silent when Sony does some stupid things (I'm not talking about Pro in this example). Some people here are aggressive to anyone that don't praise Sony and god Cerny to the heavens, anyone that points out any shortcomings of PS5 and Pro is treated like enemy.

I learned on Gaf that PS5 Pro will:

- render native games at 8k
- will be 3x more powerful than PS5
- will scale down 8k games to 4k because why not
- will blow Nvidia DLSS out of the water (their first try at Ai upscaling vs Nvidia with 6 years of experience)
- No CPU upgrade doesn't matter because modern games don't need fast CPUs at all

 

[Fake]

For those who were around in 2015-16, was there so much negativity surrounding the specs of the PS4 Pro?

Yes. Because Jaguar sucks, oc or not.

 

[yamaci17]

- No CPU upgrade doesn't matter because modern games don't need fast CPUs at all

this part is funny when you consider in the other thread, people would have you believe rx 6700 overperformed the ps5 at low resolutions because of console being CPU limited

now we have that in reverse here, lol

in the end though, it is and was a complicated topic. there will be situations where ps5 gpu will indeed be gpu limited at 720p and also situations where it will also be CPU limited at higher resolutions. both can be true at the same time for different contexts

 

[Mr Moose]

Alan Wake II could be an interesting one on the Pro, doesn't seem to affect the CPU all that much with RT off/high.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Yes. Because Jaguar sucks, oc or not.

Now we don't have Jaguar CPU, but they complain anyway....

 

[yamaci17]

Yes. Because Jaguar sucks, oc or not.

well zen 2 sucks too

1, it is 5 years old
2, it was trading blows with CPUs from 2015-2017 (6700k-7700k often traded blows with 3700x and 8700k was often faster than it. and console is nowhere near 3700x to begin with)
3, a mediocre 200 bucks ryzen 7600 is most likely 2.5x faster than console CPU at the moment
4, a mediocre 200 bucks i5 cpu was 3x-3.5x faster than console CPU back in the jaguar days (2014)
5, a mediocre 200 bucks r5 cpu that will be released in a year or so will probably be 3x faster than zen 2

zen 2 is the most overrated CPU architecture ever. it was released on PC at a time where games were optimized for jaguar cores so that most people on PC were enjoying 80-150 FPS without carefree. first iterations of ray tracing on crossgen ps4 games still saw zen 2 being able to hold on to 50-70 FPS. and finally, its days are over. its IPC performance is competitive with 4th gen intel CPUs from 2014. it had nowhere near futureproof. it just was lucky that Intel was stagnant. zen 3 was able to make a big push because zen 2 was so lackluster in comparison.

although zen 2 is a bigger baseline than jaguar ever was, writing was on the wall for zen 2 too. the fact that we're getting insane IPC/performance jumps within gens after a long time of stall is proof that there's need for better IPC/CPU performance and zen 2 just enjoyed Intel stalling for similar performance for years. and now it is just outdated and ray tracing + increased drawcalls are too much for it to handle, especially if the game is single threaded (jedi, dragon dogma 2 and baldur gate 3's act 3)

Now we don't have Jaguar CPU, but they complain anyway....

if you want honesty, I complained about zen 2 and made exact remarks about it that it would be like Jaguar in 2-3 years. it just took 4 years but we got to there. I personally thought that ps5 and xbox sx should've released at the end of 2021 with 4 ghz zen 3 cpus with decent amount of cache (at least 32 mb). instead they rushed it in 2020 and here we are

 

[Del_X]

No I am asking for actual examples, as in games right now. "Open world games will still run at 30fps"