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[Topher]

While technically correct, if AMD plans to use AT2, AT1, AT0 GPU dies in discrete cards to compete with RTX 6070, 6080, 6090 tier competitors, they can't be too far behind in feature set and capability.

Their Discrete card market share is already down to 7%, this is probably their last and best chance to gain back market share.

It's fun to discuss all the possibilities though.

Yeah, fun, but wise to be skeptical until we see real world performance.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Yeah, fun, but wise to be skeptical until we see real world performance.

And how easy it is for devs to use that performance

 

[DeepEnigma]

Helix is the project name, that's not going to be the final name of the hardware.

We didn't get Xbox Scorpio or Xbox Scarlett on release either, folks.

Yeah, we got dumber names. The project names would've been better.

 

[PropellerEar]

Yeah, we got dumber names. The project names would've been better.

Yeah Helix is special.

Helix is a spiral shaped curve... basically a screw.
Therefore it's Project Screw Xbox fans even more

 

[viveks86]

Yeah, fun, but wise to be skeptical until we see real world performance.

What we do know, assuming Helix still shares the Magnus spec, is that vanilla raster performance is similar to a 5080. Kepler has also said RT capabilities are on par or even exceed Blackwell. And then he had speculated the barriers for dual issue may finally be a thing of the past. So I'm setting expectations at "above 5080 for RT heavy or PT games". I doubt it will approach a 5090 though which is a good 50-60% above? That seems like typical MLiD hyperbole…

 

[Magic Carpet]

My guess is OEM's will have a logo on the side somewhere,
"Helix Inside"
Or Helix capable.
Whatever this unknown base cheapest magnus console will be the minimum system requirement, It will get that 'Helix' badge

Lenovo Legion Tower PC 'Helix' inside.
It will be up to the OEM to distinguish the power of the device for whatever version of that magnus chip is being used.
Currently Lenovo has many devices categories with several power levels each.

Or, get the Lenovo Legion Tower 7i, with just regular plain ole everyday Windows.
Intel/Nvidia system with more than power enough to run all those games, but will lose out on the old xbox library.

 

[Proelite]

HERE. WE. GO. LEAKED.

Retails for $ 6767.69

 

[Topher]

What we do know, assuming Helix still shares the Magnus spec, is that vanilla raster performance is similar to a 5080. Kepler has also said RT capabilities are on par or even exceed Blackwell. And then he had speculated the barriers for dual issue may finally be a thing of the past. So I'm setting expectations at "above 5080 for RT heavy or PT games". I doubt it will approach a 5090 though which is a good 50-60% above? That seems like typical MLiD hyperbole…

Part of me is wondering if things have changed with the new leadership. This high priced, high power spec never made sense to me. Xbox Series proved that more power isn't going to be what sets Xbox apart. If Microsoft really is "returning to the console" then I think they should go in the other direction. Beat PlayStation on price. And if the goal is to attract the PC gamer, the 5080 won't do that. The 5060 ti will. That's how I see it anyway.

 

[jose4gg]

Like I said, it just needs to be the best place to play GTA VI, and have a MS storefront. And it will be "sucessful".

 

[mayham2199]

And how easy it is for devs to use that performance

This is my main thing. MS loves to hype up their tools and ease of use but real world performance is all that matters.

Part of me is wondering if things have changed with the new leadership. This high priced, high power spec never made sense to me. Xbox Series proved that more power isn't going to be what sets Xbox apart. If Microsoft really is "returning to the console" then I think they should go in the other direction. Beat PlayStation on price. And if the goal is to attract the PC gamer, the 5080 won't do that. The 5060 ti will. That's how I see it anyway.

Yea but you could argue a lower price didn't help them either. I think they need to move away from trying to beat playstation in general.

 

[Topher]

This is my main thing. MS loves to hype up their tools and ease of use but real world performance is all that matters.





Yea but you could argue a lower price didn't help them either. I think they need to move away from trying to beat playstation in general.

Could be that's what they are trying. I also think they very well may be bringing in the OEMs to transition out and let them handle hardware from now on.

 

[viveks86]

Part of me is wondering if things have changed with the new leadership. This high priced, high power spec never made sense to me. Xbox Series proved that more power isn't going to be what sets Xbox apart. If Microsoft really is "returning to the console" then I think they should go in the other direction. Beat PlayStation on price. And if the goal is to attract the PC gamer, the 5080 won't do that. The 5060 ti will. That's how I see it anyway.

Asha wouldn't say it "will lead in performance" if that was their route. Though I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes another Series S/X situation to compete against Steam Machines.

 

[Humdinger]

Tombicross got banned.

From the ban page: "You were explicitly warned to stop shilling for Microsoft in threads that have nothing to do with Microsoft."

It's just a two-week ban, though, not permanent.

 

[Baemono]

Helix is the project name, that's not going to be the final name of the hardware.

We didn't get Xbox Scorpio or Xbox Scarlett on release either, folks.

Which is a bit of a shame tbf

 

[Brucey]

Tombicross got banned.

From the ban page: "You were explicitly warned to stop shilling for Microsoft in threads that have nothing to do with Microsoft."

Pretty sure MCH2024/m14 will be spamming us shortly. Can't keep a Senjutsu down.

 

[tusharngf]

This is perfect for me. I got many games on xbl store from 360 days. Never played them in past 10yrs. EGS has more than 200 free games plus steams 300. If this machine really comes under 1500 bucks I am all in.

 

[Fess]

What full PC bruh? It's still a system built as a console at heart. Not a PC with discrete parts, the SoC/APU alone saves a ton of the BOM cost. If you throw these things enough money they can be as powerful as you want them to be, and way cheaper than an actual PC (granted they price it not to make a profit off of it), with the same performance.

So why aren't AMD using this black magic when they make their graphics cards? Why are their cards big bulky 3 fan designs struggling with RT? Why do their CPUs need big cooler fans or AIO water coolers if they can make an APU doing both CPU and GPU tasks better in a slim box for a console?

Answer: There is no magic. There is only fantasies.

 

[DeepEnigma]

So why aren't AMD using this black magic when they make their graphics cards? Why are their cards big bulky 3 fan designs struggling with RT? Why do their CPUs need big cooler fans or AIO water coolers if they can make an APU doing both CPU and GPU tasks better in a slim box for a console?

Answer: There is no magic. There is only fantasies.

 

[mayham2199]

So why aren't AMD using this black magic when they make their graphics cards? Why are their cards big bulky 3 fan designs struggling with RT? Why do their CPUs need big cooler fans or AIO water coolers if they can make an APU doing both CPU and GPU tasks better in a slim box for a console?

Answer: There is no magic. There is only fantasies.

 

[Playboi Carti]

So why aren't AMD using this black magic when they make their graphics cards? Why are their cards big bulky 3 fan designs struggling with RT? Why do their CPUs need big cooler fans or AIO water coolers if they can make an APU doing both CPU and GPU tasks better in a slim box for a console?

Answer: There is no magic. There is only fantasies.

Why are you comparing discrete AMD hardware that's available right now to yet to be released custom sillicon for a premium product that you really don't know nothing about?

 

[KeplerL2]

So why aren't AMD using this black magic when they make their graphics cards? Why are their cards big bulky 3 fan designs struggling with RT?

Why are you comparing RDNA4 on 4nm with RDNA5 on 3nm?

Why do their CPUs need big cooler fans or AIO water coolers if they can make an APU doing both CPU and GPU tasks better in a slim box for a console?

Why are you comparing Zen5 on 4nm with Zen6 on 3nm?

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

So why aren't AMD using this black magic when they make their graphics cards? Why are their cards big bulky 3 fan designs struggling with RT? Why do their CPUs need big cooler fans or AIO water coolers if they can make an APU doing both CPU and GPU tasks better in a slim box for a console?

Answer: There is no magic. There is only fantasies.

 

[Bergoglio]

Xbox Nexus.

 

[Deerock71]

Yeah, we got dumber names. The project names would've been better.

This one, to prevent any confusion, is just going to be called xboX.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Why are you comparing RDNA4 on 4nm with RDNA5 on 3nm?

Why are you comparing Zen5 on 4nm with Zen6 on 3nm?

I want to be pleasantly surprised by the 1nm step, low power draw black magic.

They would effectively be shitting on nVidia with not only size, but thermals and power draw in an single APU, if it's indeed "5080 raster, 5090 RT levels."

That would be revolutionary, considering some cards were catching fire in the pin connections at one point. But again, keeping an open mind, even if one can't wrap their heads around it at the moment.

 

[adamsapple]

This one, to prevent any confusion, is just going to be called xboX.

 

[KeplerL2]

I want to be pleasantly surprised by the 1nm step, low power draw black magic.

50% perf/watt for a node shrink + new uarch is pretty standard and all that's required for this "black magic" you claim.

hey would effectively be shitting on nVidia with not only size, but thermals and power draw in an single APU, if it's indeed "5080 raster, 5090 RT levels."

I already said "5090 RT" is misleading.

 

[DeepEnigma]

50% perf/watt for a node shrink + new uarch is pretty standard and all that's required for this "black magic" you claim.

I already said "5090 RT" is misleading.

And that very well may be, and I would like to be pleasantly surprised like I said.

It would be considered "black magic" in a 350w TDP or less APU versus the 5080 wattage needed/recommended.

Like I said, shitting on nVidia and that card the size of a Series S, lol. (Being facetious)

I would love this competition and a kick in the thermal nuts.

 

[Fess]

Why are you comparing RDNA4 on 4nm with RDNA5 on 3nm?

Why are you comparing Zen5 on 4nm with Zen6 on 3nm?

Because I don't think we'll have silent SFF builds for $1500 as powerful as bulky highend $4000+ PCs of today in just 1-2 years.
AMD would have to solve all cooling and power draw and performance and RT and cost problems that the whole industry is struggling with.

 

[Bojji]

Have we had any leaks yet?

All over the place

 

[Proelite]

Ballpark Helix specs since I believe Magnus SOC is likely Xcloud related, if not OEM related. I understand KeplerL2 and MLiD disagrees.

3x Zen6 cores (core 0 OS reserved), 8x Zen6c cores (core 0 through 2 OS reserved), 2x Zen6 LP cores (all OS reserved). 5+ghz.
110 tops NPU
24 RDNA5 CU/WGP (22 enabled. 2 OS reserved) at ~2.5ghz. 28-30 teraflops FP32. ~1600 TOPS.
32GB LPDDR6. 614GB/s. (8GB OS reserved).
1 terabyte PCIE Gen5 NVME. 4966+ MB/s.

$699-$799 MSRP

Console is back

 

[memoryman3]

Helix console speculation since I believe Magnus is likely Xcloud related, if not OEM related. I understand KeplerL2 and MLiD disagrees.

3x Zen6 cores (core 0 OS reserved), 8x Zen6c cores (core 0 through 3 OS reserved), 2x Zen6 LP cores (all OS reserved). 5+ghz.
110 tops NPU
24 RDNA5 CU/WGP (22 enabled. 2 OS reserved) at ~2.5ghz. 28-30 teraflops FP32. ~1600 TOPS.
24GB GDDR7. 512GB/s. (6GB OS reserved).
1 terabyte PCIE Gen5 NVME. 4966 MB/s.

$699-$799 MSRP

Console is back

You think the Xbox is going to run with 8GB VRAM for their base model with lower bandwidth than Series X, and claim leading performance? Absolutely not.

 

[Proelite]

You think the Xbox is going to run with 8GB VRAM for their base model with lower bandwidth than Series X, and claim leading performance? Absolutely not.

It'll destroy the Series X in performance. UMC + 24MB L3 cache is over 2x effective BW than the 560GB/s in the Series X.

Last gen, official PR stated the Series X was most powerful Xbox ever. Their spec comparison has bee in comparison to their own products for the last decade.

 

[KeplerL2]

3x Zen6 cores (core 0 OS reserved), 8x Zen6c cores (core 0 through 3 OS reserved), 2x Zen6 LP cores (all OS reserved). 5+ghz.

7 cores reserved for the OS??? What kind of vibe-coded unoptimized slop do you think Windows 12 is?

24GB GDDR7. 512GB/s. (6GB OS reserved).

AT3 does not support GDDR7

1 terabyte PCIE Gen5 NVME. 4966 MB/s.

That's Gen4 speeds

 

[Proelite]

7 cores reserved for the OS??? What kind of vibe-coded unoptimized slop do you think Windows 12 is?

I've been passed info that games get 7 cores guaranteed.

AT3 does not support GDDR7

Oops thanks for the reminder. Updated to 32GB of 384-bit LPDDR6 at 612GB/s. AT3 info was rumored, I inferred the rest of the GPU.

That's Gen4 speeds

That's the minimum speed under the worst thermal scenario.

 

[KeplerL2]

I've been passed info that games get 7 cores guaranteed.

That would be 4 cores reserved for the OS (maybe 3 if 1 is disabled for yields)

Oops thanks for the reminder. Updated to 32GB of 384-bit LPDDR6 at 612GB/s. AT3 info was rumored, I inferred the rest of the GPU.

What kind of LP6 speeds are you using to get 612GB/s? And did you account for LP6 metadata overhead? (Ugh I hate LP6 BW calc)

That's the minimum speed under the worst thermal scenario.

Even the worst Gen5 SSDs should be 10GB/s or higher

 

[memoryman3]

I've been passed info that games get 7 cores guaranteed.



Oops thanks for the reminder. Updated to 32GB of 384-bit LPDDR6 at 612GB/s. AT3 info was rumored, I inferred the rest of the GPU.



That's the minimum speed under the worst thermal scenario.

I think there will be a SKU with these specs. I just don't think it will be the leading SKU. Would be a pretty excellent buy at $699 if it had full Windows, even if it's not likely.

 

[Proelite]

That would be 4 cores reserved for the OS (maybe 3 if 1 is disabled for yields)

Damn off by one error due to 0 indexing.

What kind of LP6 speeds are you using to get 612GB/s? And did you account for LP6 metadata overhead? (Ugh I hate LP6 BW calc)
Even the worst Gen5 SSDs should be 10GB/s or higher

These were Gemini answers. Outside of 7 cores for games and AT3, everything else is 100% speculated.

 

[Fess]

Just for fun I asked AI to break down the leaked specs and analyze how likely the performance fantasies are:

Verdict: Possible high‑end PC‑equivalent, but 5080‑class is not realistic.

Verdict: 5090‑class RT is effectively impossible.

 

[RickMasters]

The BOM he is giving doesn't say anything about the 5080/5090 which is what Fess is talking about here. Turns out all this noise about the configuration is just noise and we don't know how powerful this thing will be.




Fess ain't saying it can't be done. He is saying the smaller the form factor it is, the more expensive it is. And he's right.

I understand that. We see especially with products like the Mac studio and iMac. The cost of elegant and reliable cooling in such small form factors and all. But consoles have been getting bigger and denser with each generation ( except for Nintendo. They just do small from the jump) I think a console the size of say …. The Corsair one case. That would be an acceptable. Living room size for a really powerful, semi modular console . Of course we know nothing but we can all speculate based off the tidbits we hear here and there.



I think they're gonna have multiple sku/form factors. I'm sure there will be a closed box traditional console on the lower and medium side of things, but I'm really interested in 'rolling my own' on the 'high end' so to speak.


Man why does my last sentence just sound like weed speak?

 

[RickMasters]

I have all that and I just see the whole thing as incredibly unlikely. Something has to give: performance, size, noise. And definitely the price.

I have a PC with a 4090 and 7800X3D in the living room. It's more silent than any console but also about twice the size of a PS5…
Cost: You don't want to know.

Oh trust me as a fellow PC builder I have a rough idea. I get your point but I suppose we just have to wait and see how this all takes form. We are still in the a dark about specs/ skus etc and I doubt any of it has been fully finalised just yet.



I'm dead curious as an Xbox owner with a big library/back log.

 

[RickMasters]

Well they do have stockholders to please. They have to keep it profitable.

Hence the introduction of Amy Hood with the 30% margin, the cancellation of a whole host of games, closing of studios, many job losses and a new multiplatform release initiative.

Don't most big corporations have stock holders to answer too? Doesn't mean the stock holder direct the direction of the company, though. They just vote on whatever they feel is profitable. You are not wrong but even so MS have taken risks/ gambles and lost before. Isn't that just the nature of big business? Not everything is going to be a success. Yet they are still one of the top three richest companies in the world.


I do think they Atleast understand that Xbox is one of those few things that makes them look 'cool' to consumers for lack of a better description. Windows, AI and cloud based servers may be their bread and butter but these are structurally important ( boring) things nobody gets 'excited' or 'enthusiastic' about. So while it's in their best interests to take a more focused approach to it we've been disappointed enough times already as Xbox users. We just have to see how it all pans out I guess.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

When we will know anything? Tomorrow?

 

[Topher]

 

[Steve Holt]

Don't most big corporations have stock holders to answer too? Doesn't mean the stock holder direct the direction of the company, though. They just vote on whatever they feel is profitable. You are not wrong but even so MS have taken risks/ gambles and lost before. Isn't that just the nature of big business? Not everything is going to be a success. Yet they are still one of the top three richest companies in the world.


I do think they Atleast understand that Xbox is one of those few things that makes them look 'cool' to consumers for lack of a better description. Windows, AI and cloud based servers may be their bread and butter but these are structurally important ( boring) things nobody gets 'excited' or 'enthusiastic' about. So while it's in their best interests to take a more focused approach to it we've been disappointed enough times already as Xbox users. We just have to see how it all pans out I guess.

Love the optimism.

But isn't their current direction of travel towards less risks, safe bets and multiplatform publishing. I think the gamble with Bethesda and Starfield as well as Activision has burnt their fingers too much to take anymore risks for a good while.

 

[DeepEnigma]

 

[hangdang69]

My Series X is mainly a paperweight. Occasionally I'll play a gamepass game on it if I don't feel like playing on my PC, but I don't see myself buying another Xbox at this point. PC and PlayStation has me well covered.

 

[Self High Five]

Ballpark Helix specs since I believe Magnus SOC is likely Xcloud related, if not OEM related. I understand KeplerL2 and MLiD disagrees.

3x Zen6 cores (core 0 OS reserved), 8x Zen6c cores (core 0 through 2 OS reserved), 2x Zen6 LP cores (all OS reserved). 5+ghz.
110 tops NPU
24 RDNA5 CU/WGP (22 enabled. 2 OS reserved) at ~2.5ghz. 28-30 teraflops FP32. ~1600 TOPS.
32GB LPDDR6. 614GB/s. (8GB OS reserved).
1 terabyte PCIE Gen5 NVME. 4966+ MB/s.

$699-$799 MSRP

Console is back

They raised the price of XSX, which was half decade old to 649-799 USD as clear indication of margin protection for their gaming business, but will list this new PC hybrid 699-799 USD a year and half from now?

Is this what you discuss in the Xbox discord?

 

[KeplerL2]

It's definitely a bigger difference than this gen. XSX has 20% higher TFlops and Texture Fill rate plus 20% more LLC and memory bandwidth but 18% lower Front-End bandwidth, Geometry rate and Pixel Fill rate.

For Magnus it's ~25% higher TFlops/Tex rate, ~33% higher Front-end BW, Geom rate, Pixel rate plus 140% more LLC and 20% more memory bandwidth.

That said I agree that it's not enough to make a huge difference, like Magnus running something at 60 FPS while the PS6 can only handle 30 FPS, or running Path Tracing in a game where the PS6 can only handle RT.

 

[Topher]

That said I agree that it's not enough to make a huge difference, like Magnus running something at 60 FPS while the PS6 can only handle 30 FPS, or running Path Tracing in a game where the PS6 can only handle RT.

Uh.....that is a huge difference, bro

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