25% more powerful, having to run Windows and DirectX with Windows updates... I'm sure there will be several games that will run better on the PS6 than on the Helix...
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No more special sauce for Xbox console going Into helix
- Thread starter OverHeat
- Start date
It was Microsoft who passed the information to Tom Warren that the "Xbox Series S would be faster than the PS5".
Penello: What if Xbox Velocity Architecture is as Performant as the PS5 SSD and Xbox Series S Outperforms PS5 Framerates
Former Xbox Marketing Director, Albert Penello, has suggested that the Xbox Series S framerates might outperform those of the PS5.
wccftech.com
Do you think Albert Penello and Tom Warren saying that "Xbox Series S will have more FPS than the PS5" was organic, that suddenly everyone started saying it by coincidence?
It's obvious that Microsoft thought the Xbox Series S would compete with the PS5 and passed the "information" on to their "friends" to spread across the internet.
Of course Microsoft thought the Xbox Series S would compete with the PS5, since they imagined the Series S would have more FPS at 1080p than the PS5 at 1440p.
After all, it would have "lower resolution but would have more FPS."
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I haven't kept up with this thread and documentation for the next Xbox and how they are doing their BC, but I am going to be a person to wait and see because Sony did the exact same thing and built in their BC for PS4 into the hardware for PS5 and not any of their previous systems. I am just thinking that if Microsoft is doing the same then they are building their Series X BC in the hardware for Project Helix which may would still not have all BC from their previous systems before Series X/S
Fess
Member
So it's more like "This is standard full-fledged RDNA5" ?
Still, if it means that any PC could in theory be an Xbox, if MS decide to release the OS/UI for Windows or merge it into Xbox Mode.
Then it's awesome! Means you can build your own Xbox, without any boring restrictions
Also, there has always been games that have wonky PC ports, or no ports at all, because of hardware differences. And games never ported to Xbox. This should solve that, or at least make things easier for everyone.
Only on GAF would you see people trying to spin much bigger libraries as a negative
So it's more like "This is standard full-fledged RDNA5" ?
Still, if it means that any PC could in theory be an Xbox, if MS decide to release the OS/UI for Windows or merge it into Xbox Mode.
Then it's awesome! Means you can build your own Xbox, without any boring restrictions
On paper, this should be more compact, cost less and use less power than a self build at similar performance profile. Plus perks like console BC.
kevboard
Member
it's not running normal Windows. and even normal Windows isn't going to reduce your performance by any meaningful way if you actually take care of your system and don't run dozens of useless junk in the background.
in its normal Xbox mode it will in fact probably have dedicated CPU cores and a dedicated amount of memory assigned to the OS that games don't come into contact with, just like all current consoles do it.
Orbital2060
Member
The only thing I am unsure of in terms of their messaging is whether or not the next console SX2 will have the full Magnus chipset or just be a less powerful version of it. And to get the full Magnus experience you need to buy an Xbox PC which will cost the 1500-2000 bucks expect it to cost. And the console edition at 700-800 bucks.
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HerjansEagleFeeder
Member
The funny thing is all this shit and bad news has got me actually excited for the reveals of the next gen boxes. Will bring popcorn and take a day off or so.
J Required
Banned
I've heard that before...
- or was it 30% last time?
"Sony made a lot of good decisions on how to use that AMD technology"
"Arguably more efficiently than Microsoft"
"Quite a feat"
~Digital Foundry
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
Because this has to prove it's A. Happening and B. Effectively.
Microsoft is notorious for overhype and under delivering, regardless of documentation. Better to take a skeptical approach and be shocked later.
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Yes I think it was part of the decompression hw, they had custom texture filter hw proprietary IP only available on Xbox. Started during Xbox 360 days up until Series consoles. So will be great for the whole industry if it became available industry wide. Otherwise thank you for clearing that up
kevboard
Member
I mean... in theory they could sell boards with a soldered on APU and PCIe slots, like they did in the past with salvaged PS5 and Xbox One APUs in china
It's unlikely to have desktop-like levels of PCIe lanes. Maybe even something like only 4x on the SoC and the rest through some chipset. It's only going to be enough for internal SSD + user expansion and some Wifi/BT module.
kevboard
Member
I didn't say it would be good, but... they could lol. (and probably will... because, again, they did that with the previous consoles APUs to offer cheap cpu/boards in china)
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Xbox gamers would expect BC moving forward, it would be a disaster if they had no BC, not "exciting" if they do.
PC Gamers who don't have an Xbox library... probably not particularly exciting either as this is all locked behind a specific SOC. We don't even know if it will be available generally or only in pre-builts either.
PC Gamers who haven't bought an Xbox just naturally aren't that interested in the XBox Only games. Otherwise they'd probably have bought an XBox considering they haven't been terrible expensive until recently.
And even with the current ballooned pricing buying an Xbox Series X to play those games vs. having to buy a very specific PC and locking yourself into that hardware spec.... just buying an Xbox Series X is probably way more reasonable. Being able to play Xbox games isn't some exclusive hard to get into club, it's accessible via relatively cheap hardware.
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noob smokes
Member
So alienware
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Sure, as soon as Alienware gets BC with ones Xbox library
Bojji
Member
That "vita memory card" for Series consoles was absolute trash.
But what exactly IS the difference between super fast overengineered SSD in PS5 (5GB/s) and basic 2GB/s SSD in Xbox SX? Pretty much zero differences in real games...
MisterXDTV
Member
After banking everything on a rental service for 6 years, now MS is telling people that their selling point is "Games bought on the dead Xbox Store"
You can't make this shit up
They literally told people to STOP buying games for 6 years
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IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Yes, they literally told people to stop buying games.. when most games never come to Gamepass? lol
MisterXDTV
Member
Did you actually read the software split of third-party games???
Xbox Store is completely dead....
LOL
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Yeah they often compare pretty well to the hardware split difference, which is pretty wide.
Fess
Member
Tbh I'm not really interested in a similar performance profile self-built PC. I want 4 generations of BC though. Hoping that they'll get that working on a normal Windows PC too. Not a fan of buying new plastic just for that but I have so much invested in the older Xboxes by now. I don't care if they pull back the Xbox One DRM, I just need it all transferred over to an account somehow before everything rot away.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
How are you gonna have a PC with both Magnus and a 5090?
I'm just dreaming. Imagining a world where in the future OEMs or AMD release the Magnus CPU as a standalone so they can make prebuilds. I know it's far fetched and 0 chance because why wouldn't AMD ship it as a package with the chiplet GPU on.....but it would be amazing.
Wolzard
Member
There's nothing particularly special about the PS5's SSD. What was happening was that no games were taking advantage of SSDs, they were still using the same read and write protocol as HDDs.
Console customization today is basically:
- to create workarounds so as not to compromise the weak hardware. Since their CPU was weak, they added file decompression co-processors and audio co-processors.
- A fast SSD linked to the main CPU helps alleviate bottlenecks caused by a general lack of memory.
In summary, solutions to reduce the manufacturing costs of the console.
Physiognomonics
Member
Certainly not in third parties games not properly using it. But no Xbox first party have games with 1.5 sec loadings times. Not one. PS5 has a few games like this. So yes, when properly used, it works pretty well.
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Dr. Samuel Hayden
Member
None of this shit matters.
What does is exclusives. None of them = flop. Period.
What does is exclusives. None of them = flop. Period.
There are games that are 50% smaller on PS5 than on Xbox Series X. There are games that are half the size on PS5 compared to PS4.
I'm not even going to waste my time saying which games they are, much less taking screenshots of my PS5 to prove it. Why bother? You'll just keep repeating the same crap on the internet forever.
Bojji
Member
If those games were ported to Xbox, we would see similar loading times (maybe 1s longer).
PC versions are loading super fast.
Even if you put the slowest PCIE4 drive possible, you see results like that:
This is about compression technique, not pure SSD speed.
How many games are like that? When there is download window on PS Store that allows you to choose version, most of the games have similar size between PS4 and PS5.
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kevboard
Member
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
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Bojji
Member
Even on PS4 Ghost of Tsushima had ultra fast loading times, software is as important as hardware in this aspect...
And there are PS5 games that have brutally long load times.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Hell, forget PS4.
Tales of Vesperia on the X360 had cartridge-fast load times. The software/asset pipe-line is probably as important as the sheer read speed, if not more.
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hououinkyouma00
Gold Member
Disrespecting Cerny like that is fucked up.Absolutely man, you know I love you as a poster.
I absolutely 100% believe and feel that many suits at Xbox, with little knowledge of tech could have been sniffing the farts that the series x was gonna wipe the floor with the ps5. We saw the silly emails in the abk case where even Phil was championing the power advantage over ps5 and I know you've shared those sentiments from what you've heard like you put here. I trust you and those insights you've shared over the years.
I also know some ms defenders or shill people made tweets etc in the media. I think it may have been Tom Warren? Or one of those guys where they thought because the CPU was the same in the series s that it could potentially punch weight with ps5. My intention wasn't to defend those guys. Call them out all day. People with little understanding saying stupid shit. They should be called out.
I just trying to imply to that poster that Jason is a serious tech guy. He is Microsoft's Mark Cerny. He's made amazing hardware. Yes, he did the stupid marketing spiel statement of saying those fateful idiotic words that the series s delivers the same games as the series x but at 1440p. Which rightfully haunts him to this day.
But the guy knows what he's doing. Saying that, He did fuckup on memory of the series s, but then I also appreciate they had a price target they needed to hit and Microsoft clearly weren't willing to invest in ensuring the series s had 12gb of memory. So he had to cut back specs. Stupid mistake.
Overall though, they guys just doing a job. He knows a lot more than me, I know that for sure and I think as an enthusiast forum we should at least acknowledge that. He ain't stupid as I think the series X is a really well made console. Efficient, quiet. Guy deserves SOME props. Not a massive amount maybe. But, some.
Wolzard
Member
The advantage of SSDs comes from parallelism, not necessarily speed.
On a SATA HDD and SATA SSD, one I/O command (data input and output, it's a command because it's equivalent to one needle on an HDD) can be executed with 32 rows of data (data queuing to be executed sequentially). On an NVMe drive, this allows for 64,000 commands and 64,000 simultaneous queues.
Here's an old video that talks about the difference between a CPU and a GPU. Although they are different components, the underlying idea is the same.
Up until the PS4 generation, developers were thinking about the operating scheme of SATA HDDs, so NVMe drives, even though they arrived on PCs much earlier, didn't take advantage of parallelism, only speed, thus being artificially limited.
By leveraging the I/O capabilities of SSDs, developers were able to transmit data in parallel at extreme speeds, which reduced loading times and even the size of games, as there was less need for file duplication (consider that file duplication was a way to minimize the time spent searching for data on the HDD).
On a SATA HDD and SATA SSD, one I/O command (data input and output, it's a command because it's equivalent to one needle on an HDD) can be executed with 32 rows of data (data queuing to be executed sequentially). On an NVMe drive, this allows for 64,000 commands and 64,000 simultaneous queues.
Here's an old video that talks about the difference between a CPU and a GPU. Although they are different components, the underlying idea is the same.
Up until the PS4 generation, developers were thinking about the operating scheme of SATA HDDs, so NVMe drives, even though they arrived on PCs much earlier, didn't take advantage of parallelism, only speed, thus being artificially limited.
By leveraging the I/O capabilities of SSDs, developers were able to transmit data in parallel at extreme speeds, which reduced loading times and even the size of games, as there was less need for file duplication (consider that file duplication was a way to minimize the time spent searching for data on the HDD).
Radical_3d
Member
Yeah. Microsoft is cornered next generation. This generation is already loosing ports because of the customer they are breeding. The logical move was to make a silent bail from hardware. An intermediate step is to launch one final box with windows on it, so you don't starve for ports in a console that is likely going to sell even less than Series. But that's like admitting defeat, so they are not going to say: our box is a PC. They are going to say that is a sort of console. Because, see? It plays console games from 2001 to Series X. And onwards it's just Steam. Your favourite store!!
That's what I meant.
In the real world, the vast majority of multiplatform games are launching on Xbox, day and date. You won't find any of the multiplatform GOTY candidates for 2026 that isn't on Xbox.
Apparently, making $0 is better than making a profit according to your 'logic'.
Even if it sells less than the Xbox Series, each one will be sold at a profitable markup
It will be labeled a console because it'll have a typical console form factor, be designed to be hooked up to your TV via HDMI, ship with a controller, wake with said controller and have a TV friendly UX.
and yes, play Xbox console games via BC
Basically, much of a standard console featureset, but with Windows.
While you worry yourself about sales, some of us will enjoy having a massive library + better-than-existing-console mod support at our fingertips.
bitbydeath
Member
Curious how they get around licensing issues with that. Is calling it a 'console' enough to skirt it?
Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
Old games. The new ones will be on the PS6, and because Sony needs to sell PS6s, their games will be better. I don't doubt that Intergalactic will have better graphics than the new xbox games, and this will continue for years until maybe Rockstar (or which other third-party company makes cutting-edge graphics ?) makes a multiplatform game for the Helix. You know this, everyone knows this.
You're seriously arguing that there are no PC exclusives?
And what has any of this got to do with Intergalactic?
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
That is a great question
Tobimacoss
Member
If you are going to mention some1, tag them properly. You are just as confused as usual. Why would Helix need GPU customizations? MS, AMD aren't just designing one or two consoles, they're co-engineering AMD's entire portfolio of devices meant for the entire Windows/Xbox ecosystems.
Radical_3d
Member
And you are so sure that that's going to keep up with Helix that then…
… you proceed to explain why they are calling it a console when it's a PC.
Tobimacoss
Member
Devs don't build for Helix Flagship only. They would be building for every gaming capable windows device, with ability to do Cloud Gaming on every iOS and Android device.And you are so sure that that's going to keep up with Helix that then…
… you proceed to explain why they are calling it a console when it's a PC.
It's a Console. It will be closed system.
Physiognomonics
Member
If those games were ported to Xbox, we would see similar loading times (maybe 1s longer).
PC versions are loading super fast.
Even if you put the slowest PCIE4 drive possible, you see results like that:
This is about compression technique, not pure SSD speed.
How many games are like that? When there is download window on PS Store that allows you to choose version, most of the games have similar size between PS4 and PS5.
Demon's Souls was not ported. Horizon games (and likely the God of War games as those are PS4 games) don't use Kraken I/O complex. And all the Insomniac games need powerful CPUs to decompress data on the fly. Even then the loading is dynamic and assets are not fully loaded like on PS5, and the time to fully load them depends of the power of the CPU. You need a few more seconds up to like 10 seconds or so on Steam Deck. NXgamer showed this once. whereas on PS5 everything is loaded in less than 2 seconds.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Wasn't all the benchmarks that were leaking actually showing windows to perform better than Linux or was that some other sensationalist data from the other side fudging the numbers?
Anyway, more competition is good and I am personally loving the linux surge but we just need data to be accurate.
Shogmaster
Sloppy seconds
Simple: you attach the 5090 externally with USB4! Oops, now its performing like a 5070Ti...