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[SillyEskimo]

You don't fix discrimination against individuals by dehumanizing them or exclusion.

It's the parents choice one way or the other. They are the ones in control.

 

[lexi]

In the case of trans-women unless they can 100% pass its better to use the men's room. Why? It's a matter of safety. Bubba might not take kindly to a trans woman using the bathroom with his wife.

I took a class with an older trans woman professor on trans gender issues and it was fascinating

So Bubba will be just fine with a trans woman in the bathroom with him? This is what I hate about these trans bathrooms topics, 'solutions' are always "Heads I win, tails you lose" for trans people.

 

[IMACOMPUTA]

Bathrooms are binary.
Genders are not (?)
Problemz

Honestly people can go into whatever bathrooms they want.
If they are a convincing transgender nobody will even think twice, right?

Can a child be legally considered the other gender?

 

[HurricaneJesus]

Science hasn't really known the answer to this, but like I said some studies of the brain have shown that a big part of gender identity is based on differences in the human brain. As in, we have male brains and female brains. This partially explains why most boys, for example, are worse at language studies than girls at the same age. Because the areas of the boys' brains that are connected with language develop more slowly. This is also partially why boys are better at math (although a large part of that is also gender stereotypes).

So basically, this kid, who ended up with a male body, most likely has a female brain. Which makes her a girl. That's where the science is heading, at the moment. And since they can't fix her brain, the easiest thing to do is to fix her body to match it.

Thank you.

 

[Brian Griffin]

Another thing about this, do most transgender people, or people that consider themselves a man in a woman's body, or that sort of thing go to their "considered gender" bathrooms most of the time? Or just use their natural bathroom?

I don't avidly follow transgender issues but i've never heard of any transgender person having issues with this sort of thing. Obviously the kid is in 1st grade bit of a different story but this has never really been on my radar.

They use the bathroom that corresponds to the bathroom of the gender they present as. A trans man (born female but identifies as male) who still dresses like a women because they haven't transitioned yet will most likely use the women's room.

 

[Devolution]

It's the parents choice one way or the other. They are the ones in control.

No it's not. It's the schools. If they kowtow to the pressure of the parents that's a whole other matter.

 

[Charoncaori]

Thank you.

You're welcome! This stuff is honestly very confusing, and as someone who firmly believed for most of her life that there were no innate differences between men and women, it was pretty hard for me to accept this for a long time.

 

[Risette]

The thing is, there's no biological basis for that. It can't happen, and there's no physiological way for that to happen. That's why those "I identify as a unicorn!" arguments are specious. There's speculation that trans people are the way they are because of hormonal causes during gestation, or that it's genetic/epigenetic in some way. But, there's no known cause that can make someone believe that they identify as a dog. (Well, barring a mental disorder of some kind -- which is provably not the case for trans people.)

Feral children exist though.

 

[IMACOMPUTA]

The thing is, there's no biological basis for that. It can't happen, and there's no physiological way for that to happen. That's why those "I identify as a unicorn!" arguments are specious. There's speculation that trans people are the way they are because of hormonal causes during gestation, or that it's genetic/epigenetic in some way. But, there's no known cause that can make someone believe that they identify as a dog. (Well, barring a mental disorder of some kind -- which is provably not the case for trans people.)

But if there were a way to prove that there's no biological reason for a specific person to identify as the other gender, is it still okay for them to do so?

 

[yeoz]

Feral children exist though.

Who probably perfectly fit their (feral?) society's expectations for them!

 

[CrocMother]

So Bubba will be just fine with a trans woman in the bathroom with him? This is what I hate about these trans bathrooms topics, 'solutions' are always "Heads I win, tails you lose" for trans people.

Of course. There is no solution, it's like trying to fit a square block into a circle hole. From the teacher's experience, using the men's room was less likely to lead to a violent confrontation. It was a safety issue, which is a huge deal for trans people even still today.

 

[SillyEskimo]

This sort of work and disruption is necessary for society to understand and change. The issue here is that people are uncomfortable because they don;t understand/choose not to understand. Some of these parents and perhaps their children are probably afraid of trans people. Why not use this chance to educate people?

I don't think there is anything noble happening here. If anything, the parents are learning that our underfunded, understaffed education system is either unwilling or unable to cater to the needs of an individual child in a school full of hundreds. Anyone that has any experience with the public school system and special needs is already painfully aware of this!

 

[yeoz]

But if there were a way to prove that there's no biological reason for a specific person to identify as the other gender, is it still okay for them to do so?

Ultimately... yes. You can identify (or not!) as the other gender, and take on their gender expression/presentation (or not!) and that's all perfectly OK. To me at least. Though I'm not sure why it's an issue for anyone at all.

edit: Anyway, it's a random unknowable hypothetical, because at least in the real world, we are exploring physiological reasons for gender identity, as Charoncaori highlighted above.

 

[Brian Griffin]

Of course. There is no solution, it's like trying to fit a square block into a circle hole. From the teacher's experience, using the men's room was less likely to lead to a violent confrontation. It was a safety issue, which is a huge deal for trans people even still today.

Yes there is. The solution is for everyone to be accepting of trans people. It will happen eventually just like it has for other minorities in the past. The school's actions on this issue are a step in the wrong direction.

 

[Emerson]

Re-posting this:

This picture is nice as far as the gender/identity stuff goes, but why is it trying to represent biological sex as a spectrum? And what in the hell does "Asex" mean? Biologically speaking, you are either male or female. Even the various developmental abnormalities and hermaphroditisms are scientifically defined and understood. It's not some nebulous scale of infinite possibilities like they're describing.

 

[SillyEskimo]

No it's not. It's the schools. If they kowtow to the pressure of the parents that's a whole other matter.

Then it falls upon the parents to remove their child from what they feel it is a negative environment. Everything is on the parent's shoulders. It's one of the many burden's that parents have to come to terms with.

 

[CrocMother]

Yes there is. The solution is for everyone to be accepting of trans people. It will happen eventually just like it has for other minorities in the past. The school's actions on this issue are a step in the wrong direction.

I don't think there is any group of people that everyone accepts. In fact, that has never happened.

Certainly it gets better, but not everyone is lucky to live in areas or times where it is by any definition good.

 

[HurricaneJesus]

so if i don't identify as either male or female, other than the genitals i was born with, does that mean i should be able to use either bathroom? serious question.

 

[Devolution]

Then it falls upon the parents to remove their child from what they feel it is a negative environment. Everything is on the parent's shoulders. It's one of the many burden's that parents have to come to terms with.

No it falls on the school to take a stance in line with the current health and science stances on the matter.

so if i don't identify as either male or female, other than the genitals i was born with, does that mean i should be able to use either bathroom? serious question.

Pretty sure that's what a lot of intersexed individuals have to go through, deciding which to bother with and feeling alienated about it since some do not consider themselves one or the other.

 

[CrocMother]

so if i don't identify as either male or female, other than the genitals i was born with, does that mean i should be able to use either bathroom? serious question.

Ideally should you? Yes.

Realistically should you? No, because you would get yourself into trouble.

 

[IMACOMPUTA]

Perhaps you should only be able to use the bathroom of which sex you are legally considered.
Again, can a kid be legally considered a gender other than what they were born?

 

[Brian Griffin]

so if i don't identify as either male or female, other than the genitals i was born with, does that mean i should be able to use either bathroom? serious question.

You could probably make a case for it if you truly felt you were both genders and expressed yourself as such. You'd get some push back at times I'm sure and I don't know how the law would judge it.

 

[Devolution]

Perhaps you should only be able to use the bathroom of which sex you are legally considered.
Again, can a kid be legally considered a gender other than what they were born?

Did you even read the OP?

 

[yeoz]

Perhaps you should only be able to use the bathroom of which sex you are legally considered.
Again, can a kid be legally considered a gender other than what they were born?

Coy, the girl in question in this story, has a Female gender marker on her passport and her state ID. She is legally a girl in Colorado. Not only that, to have those gender markers changed, requires tons of documentation from doctors and whatnot, which is a long and tedious process in-of-itself.

 

[Cyan]

Again, can a kid be legally considered a gender other than what they were born?

From the OP:

And her passport and state-issued identification recognize her as female.

 

[BeesEight]

This picture is nice as far as the gender/identity stuff goes, but why is it trying to represent biological sex as a spectrum? And what in the hell does "Asex" mean? Biologically speaking, you are either male or female. Even the various developmental abnormalities and hermaphroditisms are scientifically defined and understood. It's not some nebulous scale of infinite possibilities like they're describing.

What's the biological definition for sex?

If it's genitalia, people can be born with both (hermaphrodites).

If it's chromosomes, there are people that are born with XY but appear female (Androgen Insensitivity Disorder).

 

[heyf00L]

Science hasn't really known the answer to this, but like I said some studies of the brain have shown that a big part of gender identity is based on differences in the human brain. As in, we have male brains and female brains. This partially explains why most boys, for example, are worse at language studies than girls at the same age. Because the areas of the boys' brains that are connected with language develop more slowly. This is also partially why boys are better at math (although a large part of that is also gender stereotypes).

So basically, this kid, who ended up with a male body, most likely has a female brain. Which makes her a girl. That's where the science is heading, at the moment. And since they can't fix her brain, the easiest thing to do is to fix her body to match it.

This is nonsense. Male and female brains are different (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone#Brain), but their formation is based on testosterone, just like the rest of the body. Without testosterone (or working androgen receptors) you get female parts, with them you get male parts (including a male brain). You seem to be suggesting that there's some other hormone that only affects the brain that can be lacking that would allow a male body and a female brain.

 

[Charoncaori]

Perhaps you should only be able to use the bathroom of which sex you are legally considered.
Again, can a kid be legally considered a gender other than what they were born?

She's legally a girl.

Additionally, it seems Colorado has already legally decided that transgendered kids cannot be discriminated against, which, according to the (lawyer?) in the video, means the girl should be allowed to use the bathroom of the gender she identifies as.

 

[SillyEskimo]

No it falls on the school to take a stance in line with the current health and science stances on the matter.

Nah, it's up to the school to come up with a compromise that is legal, which they did. They did the absolute minimal amount of work they could to try and solve the issue, which is the norm. Welcome to the public school system where everyone who is different is treated the same.

If it's not legal, sue and win in court. If it is legal, comply or change schools. It's up to the parents. It really is that simple.

 

[yeoz]

Nah, it's up to the school to come up with a compromise that is legal, which they did. They did the absolute minimal amount of work they could to try and solve the issue, which is the norm. Welcome to the public school system where everyone who is different is treated the same.

If it's not legal, sue and win in court. If it is legal, comply or change schools. It's up to the parents. It really is that simple.

Yes, it really is that simple. This is why they're suing. Their lawyers believe, by their interpretation, that what the school is doing, is indeed illegal.

 

[IMACOMPUTA]

She's legally a girl.

Additionally, it seems Colorado has already legally decided that transgendered kids cannot be discriminated against, which, according to the (lawyer?) in the video, means the girl should be allowed to use the bathroom of the gender she identifies as.

Well then she should definitely be able to use the girls bathroom. Did the school check her for a peepee? How did they even know she used to be a boy?

 

[SillyEskimo]

Yes, it really is that simple. This is why they're suing. Their lawyers believe, by their interpretation, that what the school is doing, is indeed illegal.

Then time will tell. Until then, use the neutral bathroom.

 

[CrocMother]

Ok say they win. Is it really going to make that little girl's life better? Or will this whole thing single her out among her peers and potentially ostracize her?

 

[Devolution]

Ok say they win. Is it really going to make that little girl's life better? Or will this whole thing single her out among her peers and potentially ostracize her?

They're already singling her out by forcing her to use a different bathroom. Does this just go over your and Eskimo's heads or what?

 

[yeoz]

Ok say they win. Is it really going to make that little girl's life better? Or will this whole thing single her out among her peers and potentially ostracize her?

It will probably make life better for her. Who knows. But it will definitely improve the quality of life for other gender non-conforming peers in her state (or court district or whatever).

 

[Goodacre0081]

I have to be honest, while the child should be able to use the appropriate facilities based on how they are living, the purple hair is a red flag to me that there is some overzealous parenting going on rather than a child making a decision for herself.

either that or the parents are too accepting of what the child wants. what if in a year when she decides she really want's to be a boy? it seems to me these kinds of decisions should be made later in life when your old enough to understand. these are huge life altering decisions. why is she making them at age 6?

 

[yeoz]

either that or the parents are too accepting of what the child wants. what if in a year when she decides she really want's to be a boy? it seems to me these kinds of decisions should be made later in life when your old enough to understand. these are huge life altering decisions. why is she making them at age 6?

Why is it a huge life-altering decision? It's not irreversible is it? They haven't actually done any irreversible medical procedures on her, have they?

Why does doing it now, or a year from now, or ten years from now matter? It's improving her quality of life *NOW*. That's why.

edit: was requested to remove a dumb GRS reference.

 

[BeesEight]

either that or the parents are too accepting of what the child wants. what if in a year when she decides she really want's to be a boy? it seems to me these kinds of decisions should be made later in life when your old enough to understand. these are huge life altering decisions. why is she making them at age 6?

Just like the doctors are too generous to her darling demands? And the state is too soft with the gentle pleas of an imaginative child?

Or, maybe, she has been identified as transgendered and we should respect that fact?

The kid says she's a girl - the parents say she's a girl - the doctors say she's a girl - the state recognizes her as a girl -> the school forces her to use a different bathroom.

 

[CrocMother]

They're already singling her out by forcing her to use a different bathroom. Does this just go over your and Eskimo's heads or what?

It will probably make life better for her. Who knows. But it will definitely improve the quality of life for other gender non-conforming peers in her state (or court district or whatever).

A) I think her not being able to use the girls room is a little different than her parents suing the school and it becoming a national news story.

B) I don't think the battle for minority rights should ever be shouldered by a child.

 

[FyreWulff]

either that or the parents are too accepting of what the child wants. what if in a year when she decides she really want's to be a boy? it seems to me these kinds of decisions should be made later in life when your old enough to understand. these are huge life altering decisions. why is she making them at age 6?

People can know from a fairly early age about this.

Also, we have the capability to delay puberty until she's sure so she can do HRT and stuff to end up with more feminine appearance instead of going through male puberty and then starting from there. If she decides she would rather be male, the postponement can be stopped and she will then go through male puberty.

So in short, at this point, the only 'life changing' thing for her is she suffers less from depression because she doesn't feel trapped as a boy.

 

[yeoz]

A) I think her not being able to use the girls room is a little different than her parents suing the school and it becoming a national news story.

B) I don't think the battle for minority rights should ever be shouldered by a child.

This is not just a battle for minority rights. This is a battle for *her* rights. Plain and simple.

 

[Devolution]

A) I think her not being able to use the girls room is a little different than her parents suing the school and it becoming a national news story.

B) I don't think the battle for minority rights should ever be shouldered by a child.

Good for you, it's not up to you is it though. She's being ostracized at her school either way, her parents want this to stop. She used the bathroom without issue for half of the year.

 

[SillyEskimo]

They're already singling her out by forcing her to use a different bathroom. Does this just go over your and Eskimo's heads or what?

It's the facuilty bathroom. Both boyd and girls use it. It's not like the school dug a hole in the ground and the child is forced at gun point to shit in front of a laughing classroom. The bathroom is not evil.

So much melodrama.

 

[Canuck76]

It's the facuilty bathroom. Both boyd and girls use it. It's not like the school dug a hole in the ground and the child is forced at gun point to shit in front of a laughing classroom. The bathroom is not evil.

So much melodrama.

I'm sorry this made me laugh so hard

 

[Devolution]

It's the facuilty bathroom. Both boyd and girls use it. It's not like the school dug a hole in the ground and the child is forced at gun point to shit in front of a laughing classroom. The bathroom is not evil.

So much melodrama.

Yes melodrama over a child being completely ostracized and forced to use separate utilities from the rest of her peers. That won't make her feel isolated and teased. Are you trolling at this point or just that ignorant about socializing?

 

[CrocMother]

This is not just a battle for minority rights. This is a battle for *her* rights. Plain and simple.

I understand what you're saying. I think she is just too young to fully understand what this kind of attention means for her life, now and in the future.

I don't think this will make her life better.

 

[SillyEskimo]

She used the bathroom without issue for half of the year.

Did you read the OP? The change was put in place for future issues. I thought that was pretty clear and actually showed foresight on behalf of the school.

 

[IMACOMPUTA]

Regarding the young age thing:

The parents knew taking this route would be hard and get a lot of criticism and discrimination.

The kid did not know this.

 

[Charoncaori]

This is nonsense. Male and female brains are different (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone#Brain), but their formation is based on testosterone, just like the rest of the body. Without testosterone (or working androgen receptors) you get female parts, with them you get male parts (including a male brain). You seem to be suggesting that there's some other hormone that can be lacking that would allow a male body and a female brain.

It happens. I believe hormones aren't the only thing that affects the development of the fetus' brain, chromosomes also play a role.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12672961/?i=6&from=/15322528/related

In that example, a finch bird somehow wound up with a half-male, half-female brain. Which shows that hormones weren't the only thing to have an effect on the development of its brain. Sometimes the expression of genes just fuck up, I think. It's worth noting that even the female half was more masculine than usual due to the testosterone exposure, though.

Hopefully someone else can link to a few more relevant studies.

 

[CrocMother]

Good for you, it's not up to you is it though. She's being ostracized at her school either way, her parents want this to stop. She used the bathroom without issue for half of the year.

She's not ostracized because the school won't let her use the bathroom, she is ostracized because she is transgendered! Now her peers will only see that and what chance she had for some level of normalcy is gone. I think that's a shame. If you are transgendered you can't have a normal life. You will always to some extent be ostracized in our society, probably your whole life.

If this was my daughter, I would tell her she had nothing to be ashamed o and to always be true to herself but would never put this kind o spotlight on her. It's too much.