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[laesperanzapaz]

keeping my personal background in mind, it pains me to say this but...I think in most places outside the Americas and Aus/NZ, multiculti and immigration history is more a failure than anything. Part of it is geography: the Yuros are closer to the poorer, more conservative parts of the world; part of it is history, as most Euro countries have about 1000 plus years of history of looking a certain way (ie. white) and believing in certain things (among which, Christianity). If you have a historically mass intake of poor, more traditional-minded refugees of a different religious and cultural backgrounds....and then do a dog-whistle of any critics as "racists", what exactly do you think is gonna happen? And I consider myself pretty lefty on most social and political issues.

And even then, countries like Aus, Brazil and the US are having its share of troubles of course. I know Brazil just got blindsided by a bunch of Haitian and African immigrants who somehow snuck through Peru and into the Amazon provinces. Those things rarely happen to more geographically distant countries (NZ, Canada...fucking Iceland).

...you know, maybe we should just invade Iceland and kick their natives out.

 

[phaze]

So why has no one tried adopting the American model of legal immigration?

I'm not sure I'd point out to US as a shining example of integration. They are still a largely ghettoized society and that despite living together for 300 hundred years.

 

[Madness]

I'm not sure I'd point out to US as a shining example of integration. They are still a largely ghettoized society and that despite living together for 300 hundred years.

That's because the differences between white people and black people was too extreme for far too long. On the one hand you have super wealthy and influential whites and on the other you have uneducated slaves treated like cattle. Very hard to reconcile the two.

Plus it's only been like less than 60 years since the Civil Rights movement gathered steam. I'd say the US is much better at integration than even Canada is now. A recent immigrant from Ghana, India, Korea, China would find it much easier, as would their kids.

You can't expect parity so soon when the parents of some kids today were probably the product of segregated schools etc.

The problems a lot of countries are having, is a large influx of people from a specific community, especially one where the culture might be quite different. You need an equilibrium, match the level of immigration, with the availability of jobs, school positions etc. It takes time to integrate as well.

The most worrying thing happening, and I'll use Canada as an example, is foreign temporary worker programs. You bring essentially unskilled laborers over, make them work in tough jobs for a fraction of the pay. They don't make enough to start saving or building a good life and will probably live in poverty here, there is a lack of jobs for the local populace etc. All you're doing is creating a potential problem 10-20 years down the line. Rather than have companies cut into their mmassive profits to pay decent wages with benefits, you create basically a subclass of workers in the country.

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

I'm not sure I'd point out to US as a shining example of integration. They are still a largely ghettoized society and that despite living together for 300 hundred years.

umm, how bout the hundreds of thousands of successfully integrated asian americans and latino americans? I wouldn't consider African-Americans and their current situation to be an immigrant policy problem. it's a racist past (and present) problem. And also structural culture problem as well

 

[xbhaskarx]

I'm not sure I'd point out to US as a shining example of integration. They are still a largely ghettoized society and that despite living together for 300 hundred years.

Are you comparing slavery and immigration?

 

[phaze]

umm, how bout the hundreds of thousands of successfully integrated asian americans and latino americans? I wouldn't consider African-Americans and their current situation to be an immigrant policy problem. it's a racist past (and present) problem. And also structural culture problem as well

They still live in largely segregated neighborhoods which is what I referred to in my post. It's also not like there weren't any similar riots in US as well.
I would (conveniently) refer to both as ethnic minority integration problems.




http://www.businessinsider.com/most-segregated-cities-census-maps-2013-4?op=1

Are you comparing slavery and immigration?

Fair enough. 150 years then ?

 

[kmag]

Math is pro immigration.

Take Sweden for example, you have a birth rate which has been beneath 2 (1.94) for some time meaning a population contraction when you exclude immigration. Couple this with an aging population means you need the influx of people of working age to meet the shortfall. Now, people may say a reducing population is no bad thing, but it's difficult to balance an aging population with all it's pension and healthcare liabilities with a decreasing workforce.

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

They still live in largely segregated neighborhoods which is what I referred to in my post. It's also not like there weren't any similar riots in US as well.
I would (conveniently) refer to both as ethnic minority integration problems.




http://www.businessinsider.com/most-segregated-cities-census-maps-2013-4?op=1





Fair enough. 150 years then ?

name the last riot held by immigrants in the last 30 years that's on the scale of the stockholm

 

[Ziltoid]

Maybe if they screened applicants and accepted well educated immigrants who could hold down decent jobs (maybe even in areas where they filled a need in the economy) instead of living on welfare, and didn't hate western civilization or have problems integrating into their new society because of their existing cultural / religious beliefs... nah why be practical just be naive idealists and take in random refugees from wherever.

Many of the refugees come from war-torn areas. You can't just send them away.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Many of the refugees come from war-torn areas. You can't just send them away.

You can send away the ones who are violent, riot, and commit crimes. There should be a zero tolerance policy for this shit. I feel bad for Sweden, UK, and any country dealing with this BS.

 

[Ziltoid]

You can send away the ones who are violent, riot, and commit crimes. There should be a zero tolerance policy for this shit. I feel bad for Sweden, UK, and any country dealing with this BS.

It isn't really that easy. Doing so could be seen as a breach of UN resolutions.

Not that I don't agree with you, it's just easier said than done.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

It isn't really that easy. Doing so could be seen as a breach of UN resolutions.

Not that I don't agree with you, it's just easier said than done.

So all the immigration is the result of UN resolution policy? Or just that UN policy prevents deportation?

 

[Nicktendo86]

I get why they pelted police with stones. I don't agree with it but I see the backward arse reasoning behind it. But pelting firefighters? Why? That really grabs my goat, they are putting their lives on the line to save people from fucking fire, why attack them?

 

[Ziltoid]

So all the immigration is the result of UN resolution policy? Or just that UN policy prevents deportation?

The latter.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

I get why they pelted police with stones. I don't agree with it but I see the backward arse reasoning behind it. But pelting firefighters? Why? That really grabs my goat, they are putting their lives on the line to save people from fucking fire, why attack them?

And why is that? I don't get there reasoning at all. Rioting and pelting police don't help their cause.

The latter.

That's a damn shame. I wonder if the US is party to this resolution.

 

[jorma]

So all the immigration is the result of UN resolution policy? Or just that UN policy prevents deportation?

What will prevent deportation is that most of these kids are swedish citizens and most likely even born in Sweden.

 

[IceCold]

What will prevent deportation is that most of these kids are swedish citizens and most likely even born in Sweden.

Doesn't matter if they are born in Sweden. They don't get citizenship automatically (just sanguinis).

 

[Choke on the Magic]

What will prevent deportation is that most of these kids are swedish citizens and most likely even born in Sweden.

That makes more sense. I was under the impression that these were refugees and not yet citizens.

 

[Nicktendo86]

And why is that? I don't get there reasoning at all. Rioting and pelting police don't help their cause.

Sorry, I mean I understand what their 'excuses' would be for pelting police, like the London riots they would say "waaahh police brutality, we have nothing better to do so we are showing our frustrations against the police" yada yada, all BS in my opinion. What I mean was I don't even get what their reasoning would be to attack fire fighters, other than them being fucking morons?

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Sorry, I mean I understand what their 'excuses' would be for pelting police, like the London riots they would say "waaahh police brutality, we have nothing better to do so we are showing our frustrations against the police" yada yada, all BS in my opinion. What I mean was I don't even get what their reasoning would be to attack fire fighters, other than them being fucking morons?

Ok I see what you're saying. Rioters don't make sense usually. Like in Vancouver.

 

[Nicktendo86]

Ok I see what you're saying. Rioters don't make sense usually. Like in Vancouver.

Yeah, actually I don't know why I am wasting my time trying to find logic.

 

[phaze]

name the last riot held by immigrants in the last 30 years that's on the scale of the stockholm

Why do they have to be held by immigrants? I can name a few held by an ethnic minority. Poor ethnic minority start riots in response to police brutality, sounds familiar to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

 

[w00twood]

A more tenuous explanation comes from the BBC- these riots are taking place because of inequality in Sweden (one of the most equal countries in the developed world).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22650267

It's a shame that people jump to inequality so quickly whenever there is some kind of unrest, when it can have only a tangential relationship to the real problem. I don't doubt the riots have some relationship with inequality but that clearly cannot be the fundamental problem, given less equal countries in Europe have not had riots like this. Social alienation is not the same as inequality but it will be used in arguments about welfare, wealth transfers etc that have nothing to do with the situation here.

I appreciate not many people on this board are taking that line of argument, but it really rattles my cage when the BBC (a state broadcaster bound by impartiality) produces rubbish like this.

 

[Jeels]

Disenfranchised poor youth riot. Blame it on religion and race? Okay...

The disenfranchised and poor always riot because it is how they get their concerns heard (whether this is a correct way or not is a different matter) in a society they feel has forgotten them. This has nothing to do with a failure of multiculturalism.

 

[w00twood]

This has nothing to do with a failure of multiculturalism.

So would you say that multiculturalism has been a success in Sweden? You imply somewhat that it is, but you're not clear. I'm not that familiar with it myself (I'm from the UK btw) but the impression I have had from Swedish friends is that they are concerned about how ghettoised some neighbourhoods have become.

A quick glance on wikipedia says that the immigrant population of Husby, where the riots started, is 81.9%. There is no protest element to the riots that I have come across, or any political message put forward by the participants. Doesn't this imply that there is more to the issue than poverty, or income inequality? And what do you mean 'poor people always riot' to get their voices heard? It's not as if the very lowest classes of society are in a permanent state of revolt.

 

[xbhaskarx]

Many of the refugees come from war-torn areas. You can't just send them away.

You're talking about deportation... You can control which immigrants you allow into your country in the first place. No one is forcing Sweden to take so many refugees from war-torn areas.

 

[IceCold]

Do European countries that had colonies for a long time (such as Portugal, Spain, France, and the UK) have an easier time integrating immigrants? Especially immigrants from their ex-colonies?

 

[Guileless]

This is strange. There was a guy billed as a Swedish blues singer at the Beale St. Music Festival a few weeks ago and we were all laughing about what the Swedish blues would be.

 

[laesperanzapaz]

Do European countries that had colonies for a long time (such as Portugal, Spain, France, and the UK) have an easier time integrating immigrants? Especially immigrants from their ex-colonies?

yes and no, i think. No for places like UK vs her former colonies, who usually came from different religious, cultural and most of all, linguistic backgrounds. In addition to racial differences.

I think in the case of Spain vs her American colonies, the shared language, religion (for the most part), and race (well, a bunch of 'em are either of Spanish descent, or kinda look like them, sorta) has meant that it doesnt have the kind of deep societal schisms that you see in the UK. Or France for that matter.

But still they are immigrants, ie. they have less networks on which to rely on when it comes to the necessities of living (jobs, friends,...)

 

[archnemesis]

Stockholm experienced a sixth straight night of riots early Saturday, with cars torched in several immigrant-dominated suburbs, as Britain and the United States warned against travelling to the hotspots.

About 200 right-wing extremists were reported to cruise around Stockholm suburbs in their cars late Friday, but intense police surveillance apparently prevented any kind of serious violence.

Stockholm county police chief Mats Löfving said Friday the rioters were local youths with and without criminal records.

In addition, "in the midst of all this there is a small group of professional criminals, who are taking advantage of the situation to commit crimes like this," he told Sveriges Radio.

A 25-year-old who grew up in Husby said he didn't think the riots had anything to do with the shooting.

"I'm not saying there are no problems... but people are glorifying this a little bit," said the man, who declined to be named, adding that the rioters were often aged 12 to 17.

Stockholm riots spread west on sixth night | The Local

With international media swooping on the Stockholm riots from every angle, The Local's Oliver Gee explains why Stockholm's not burning, and how the story has been blown out of proportion.

Day five into the Stockholm riots and the world, as viewed from our Stockholm office, has gone crazy. The UK and the US have issued travel warnings for Stockholm. A reporter in the UK contacted me saying he was having trouble getting through to Sweden and wondered in desperation if the networks had all gone down.

My own mother contacted me from the other side of the world to tell me to keep safe. Other colleagues have reported similar phone calls from worried relatives as news of the unrest has reached their relatives around the globe. Some papers have even run stories headlined "Stockholm Burning".

But the truth is, it's not. In fact I've never felt safer in the capital. A lunchtime stroll around central Stockholm today showed absolutely no signs of danger, no smoke, no fire, and the only rioting kids I saw were fighting over a basketball.

Stockholm's not burning | The Local

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

yes and no, i think. No for places like UK vs her former colonies, who usually came from different religious, cultural and most of all, linguistic backgrounds. In addition to racial differences.

Depends on the colony. The "white dominions" like Canada and Australia have no trouble with migration between themselves since they are still essentially the same people.

 

[moniker]

Oh good, now this shit has spread to my city as wel.

 

[ICKE]

How many days has it been now? It really feels like this is the latest "cool thing" to do now after the riots in London.

Sweden is a country that provides housing, education, welfare for food and other basic necessities, financing for individuals who start private businesses, has strict laws against racist behavior and has accepted a lot of people from war torn countries.

There is no excuse to start burning cars, because all the doors are open for you - regardless of your age (many people in Northern countries go to university when they are 40 years old and try something new).

A bunch of fucking morons. I wonder how the family dynamics work in these families, can the girls educate themselves properly or are they just expected to raise children when they grow up? The boys are failing spectacularly at the moment, I really hope it's better on the other side of the aisle.

 

[phaze]

It's the sixth night. Maybe a mod can change the title to just Stockholm Riots ? Didn't think it would last this long.

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

Why do they have to be held by immigrants? I can name a few held by an ethnic minority. Poor ethnic minority start riots in response to police brutality, sounds familiar to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

because the argument here is about immigrants. not natives

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

because the argument here is about immigrants. not natives

Not to mention that a lot has changed with the African American situation since 1992. That was more than two decades ago.

 

[phaze]

because the argument here is about immigrants. not natives

Not that I agree with this division but you can read in that Wiki entry about Latin participation in those riots as well as violence against Korean immigrants.

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

Not that I agree with this division but you can read in that Wiki entry about Latin participation in those riots as well as violence against Korean immigrants.

yes, that violence was from African americans to korean americans.

again, this isn't a large scale riot by an immigrant class against the established state, with car looting and shit.

And also this was like 20 years ago.

I can find something in Europe like pretty much every year for the past 5 years

Doesn't matter if they are born in Sweden. They don't get citizenship automatically (just sanguinis).

can you explain the different status of immigrants in Sweden? in the US, you have

illegal immigrants
legal immigrants
permanent residents
citizens.

How does one get citizenship then even if you're born there? What happens if you're born to Swedish citizens? Shouldn't that be automatic?

 

[Snytbaggen]

So apparently some shit went down in my town as well

 

[moniker]

I find all the talk of police brutality a bit weird. Everyone's got a camera nowadays but nobody manages to catch any of this on video. Even during these riots we keep hearing of police calling people racial slurs, indiscriminately beating people with batons, yet no one manages to get a video of this? Even when there's a ton of people on an about, many of whom are journalists. And the only people in hospitals are police, firefighters etc that have had rocks thrown at them or being assaulted.

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

we take them in, give them food, healthcare, housing, education, free higher education, benefits for startup companies.

We subsidise their wages so they can get hired before a swede.

And what do we get?

Riots, burned cars?

These people are fucking shameless.


The funny thing is. Husby does not have higher unemployment rates than the rest of sweden. There are many places in sweden, exclusively swedish which have it much worse.

 

[archnemesis]

can you explain the different status of immigrants in Sweden? in the US, you have

illegal immigrants
legal immigrants
permanent residents
citizens.

How does one get citizenship then even if you're born there? What happens if you're born to Swedish citizens? Shouldn't that be automatic?

If one of the parents is a Swedish citizen then the children have the right to also become citizens. Otherwise the following rules apply.

To become a Swedish citizen you must:

• be able to prove your identity
• have reached the age of 18
• have a permanent residence permit or a permanent right of residence in Sweden
• have lived in Sweden for a specified period
• have conducted yourself well in Sweden.

(source)

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

If one of the parents is a Swedish citizen then the children have the right to also become citizens. Otherwise the following rules apply.
(source)

so then if these kids are born when their parents are aleady citizens, then they're already citizens. you ca'nt dport them.

i don't even think you can deport permanent residence can u?

 

[archnemesis]

The funny thing is. Husby does not have higher unemployment rates than the rest of sweden. There are many places in sweden, exclusively swedish which have it much worse.

It's way higher than in the rest of Stockholm though. 8.8% compared to 3.3%, IIRC. For youths in Husby between the age of 16 and 19, 20% don't work or study.

so then if these kids are born when their parents are aleady citizens, then they're already citizens. you ca'nt dport them.

i don't even think you can deport permanent residence can u?

No, I doubt you can deport anyone involved in these riots. It's often even difficult to deport illegal immigrants.

 

[Globox_82]

I am an immigrant living in Sweden for 12 years. Let me tell you that there are few if any other country that threats immigrants as well as Sweden. Of course it's not easy if you are an immigrant (it's not easy for Swedes either- why should it be for immigrants) to get a job, your own place and what not. But here everyone can get the basics, you don't have to sleep on the streets, you are not hungry, every kid gets a nice ammount of money every month.
These people, or should I say savages have it too good here, and have no respect for the country. I am immigrant my self, but I say arrest these degenerates, use force if needed and send them one way ticket from where they come from. So that they can throw rocks burn their cities and whatever they love to do in their free time.

 

[Globox_82]

It's way higher than in the rest of Stockholm though. 8.8% compared to 3.3%, IIRC. For youths in Husby between the age of 16 and 19, 20% don't work or study.No, I doubt you can deport anyone involved in these riots. It's often even difficult to deport illegal immigrants.

that's their choice.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Let us completely ignore the London riots, and other infamous ones of the past, and blame these on Muslim immigrants and multiculturalism

 

[Cield]

They have burned cars where I live also... Stopped firemen and police officers.

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

It's way higher than in the rest of Stockholm though. 8.8% compared to 3.3%, IIRC. For youths in Husby between the age of 16 and 19, 20% don't work or study.No, I doubt you can deport anyone involved in these riots. It's often even difficult to deport illegal immigrants.

why is it difficult to deport illegal immigrants?

 

[Kayo-kun]

I find it hilarious how people are talking about deporting Swedish citizens who are born and raised in this country. The youth in Husby are mostly second or even third generation immigrants.

Where are you going to deport them? To Finland?