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Austria bans the burqa
- Thread starter Lime
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ShironRedshift
Member
Indeed. I agree with this. It's definitely a very delicate subject. Many Muslim men may use it to oppress women, but there are other women who voluntarily choose to wear it as a symbol of their faith and those women shouldn't be denied that right if that is indeed their choice and how they want to celebrate their religion. People might mean well in trying to get rid of something that can be used to be a symbol of oppression, but getting rid of women's choice isn't the answer. It's a very delicate subject, but that just doesn't seem to be the best approach at all--it disrespects those women who do freely choose it and doesn't actually benefit or improve the lives of those forced to wear it in any way. That being the case, no matter how good the intent may be of those in favor of such bans, it's a skin-level solution at best that doesn't truly fix anything and thus not an approach I can truly be in favor of.
SolarPowered
Member
Hear, Hear
Saudi Arabia can continue with that supposedly "optional" wear if they feel like it.
DrunkShogun
Member
I'm fine with this due to security purpose but if they start banning scarfs and hijabs then I have an issue. Seeing someone's face is something that should be standard.
I've never had any issues with hijab because the face is clearly visible. Burqa other hand presents quite a bit of security concern. As an individual, my mind goes to dark places when I see one person garbed in one in a public space among others who aren't. And no, it's not just "must be a terrorist" BS.
150 people.
To be fair, i'm much more mad about the fact that - along with this - they are also planning to ban women in certain jobs (teachers, as a prime example) from wearing a hijab / headscarf.
There's certain arguments to be made about the burqa.
The issue will be that women who were previously wearing a burqa in public, will go on to live as shut ins, not going outside anymore. It's not like they'll throw their burqa into the trash yelling "Finally, i'm free!".
Someone is still making them wear the burqa, be it their husband / family or their belief.
I disagree with any kind of clothing ban - out of principle - when it's targeting a religion and i feel these measures are counterproductive to integration, especially the (edit: proposed, incoming) hijab ban for teachers.
we just inaugurated a green party president over a right-winger. So let's just wait and see how you do on May 7th
the question is, would they ever hire a woman in these jobs?
even without burqas?
you know, if you have a non-german name on your application, the rate of getting an interview drops around 20%. and this is only for an interview. guess how high the chance is to get hired at all.
iam against all visible presentation of religion in public space, but just banning a piece of cloth is not solving the problem.
try start educate the people (not just some conservative muslims, but the rest of the population) as well as how about hire the people who are suitable and not the people who are "the same as me"?
psychowave
Member
There is no "free will" when you've been forced to wear it since birth.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
By all means we should help to ensure women don't have to wear it in the future but let's be sympathetic towards those that do wear it, otherwise you end up with assholes that try to guilt trip them into taking it off.
ClosingADoor
Member
A hoodie still shows your face.
Yes it is ?
For arguments sake, how does this infringe on others' rights?
What?
People need to understand how France works really before commenting. France has an extremely strong separation of church and state, which it arrived after hundreds of years of internal conflict between different branches of Christianity. The overt religious elements of USA politics are completely unthinkable over there - even things like swearing on a bible as a juror do t happen. France has an extremely strong set of laws and customs around religious elements in public society, which makes it not as simple as calling it racist.
For quick reading : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laïcité
Basically, France takes separation of church and state literally and very strongly.
DirgeExtinction
Member
I hope this won't be more trouble than it's worth.
the issue is different here, though. Banning the burqa in Austria doesn't explicitly mean permission to leave the house without a veil. It might result in an effective house arrest for women formerly wearing burqas.
Question: How do these women even function as independant adults in society? They go outside and work like that? Attend social events? Also, while many may be doing at as a choice due to religion, how much resistence would they face by their family if they opted for western clothing?
ClosingADoor
Member
Which would be abuse and there are organisations helping with that. We shouldn't allow one form of oppression because that is better then another form. Fight both.
Probably a fine.
Tbf it was allowed until suddenly when anti-muslim fever is high, out comes a ban.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Nobody can say for sure but banning it isn't going to suddenly let the oppressive members of such a family allow their wives/daughters to go out. They'll just be more controlling and force them to stay inside. Those women are the ones being punished by such bans, while people pretend they're doing the bans for them.
Whenever someone brings up "but what if they do it voluntarily", I remember that there are advocacy groups for female genital mutilation, consisting of women.
It's hard to decide where the line between free will and forced internalization is crossed. The question is on which side you prefer to err on.
A really complex issue this - but I have to say I think I agree.
At the end of the day it's up to Austria and what they wish to do with their values etc.
But yeah I think I agree on principle
Nothing stupid about banning something as degrading to women as the fucking burqa. Why don't you go out and wear one if you're so attached to it ?
Glad to see the same unsubstantiated myths about western burqa and other face-veil wearers get propagated in this thread. There is no proof that these articles of clothing are worn by women forced to do so, from a young age or as adults, by family/community/partner. Watch any interview with one of these women and you'll find out that for many wearing it is a deliberate choice.
Let's ban coats too.
Only if they are ready to take it off, I would imagine.
I really think you put law enformcement in a weird situation here. It's just that there are so few cases that it will barely happen anyway.
When you're told from childhood that you'll go to hell, and grow up in a patriarchal community that treats you like property, sure, you'd want to wear it. Using people of minority groups speaking up for things that are against their best interest as a shield does not make things more morally correct.
I appreciate that this is a complex issue so let's not do the "this black person said you should be more respectful to cops so police brutality doesn't actually exist" type of reductionist arguments.
Yeah "let me go and tell how much I fuckin hate wearing this on live tv, there will be absolutely no consequences to my well-being at home!"
ReplacementPelican
Member
These bans rarely (never?) come with that though. They're not actually trying to solve issues of integration but sate the tears of the sensitive right-wing who don't like to see people that look distinctly different. Shit, that's what the 'average Joe' means by integration, not having to see foreigners who look or act differently.
Yeah, you're totally right! That's why ever single terrorist attack perpetrated in the West has been by a Muslim hiding in a Burqa!
Oh... Shit, wait, isn't that actually none of them?
What about converts that start wearing a face-veil?
Well, then the whole 'by choice' argument is bullshit as its essentially coercion.
Yeah and if you watch the liberation of ISIS strongholds, you will see women gladly throw it away.
TheWasTheJoke
Member
Edit: Disregard my views
Like mascot/halloween costumes?
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