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[Goodstyle]

I'm genuinely curious as to why he didn't go with the ease "FUCK CASTRO" line in front of the crowd. Maybe say he supported his health care policies, but hated everything he stood for. If he called Castro "Repugnant" (a word that would sound great coming out of Bernie's mouth), the crowd would have ate it up.

My theory was that he was shell-shocked seeing that video. He likely doesn't even remember saying any of the shit he did 30 years ago, and throughout the debate he felt complacent due to getting the softest ball questions in comparison to Hillary. When they gutted him with that blow, he probably blanked.

If this really has an impact on Bernie, if the story becomes him "Not renouncing Castro", then this was a successful hit job.

 

[Allard]

Are you serious? Hillary has been getting mean with Bernie for debate after debate now.

I just want to say lol. If she wanted she could go scorched earth on his policies (as a form of electability), but she wants his supporters in the GE so she won't and she is probably going to win the primary so its not worth it. The fact that you think she is being mean shows you are in for an extreme rude awakening when the GE starts, if he can't fend off these attacks from Clinton he is literally toast in the GE before it even really begins.

 

[JesseEwiak]

I'm genuinely curious as to why he didn't go with the ease "FUCK CASTRO" line in front of the crowd. Maybe say he supported his health care policies, but hated everything he stood for. If he called Castro "Repugnant" (a word that would sound great coming out of Bernie's mouth), the crowd would have ate it up.

My theory was that he was shell-shocked seeing that video. He likely doesn't even remember saying any of the shit he did 30 years ago, and throughout the debate he felt complacent due to getting the softest ball questions in comparison to Hillary. When they gutted him with that blow, he probably blanked.

If this really has an impact on Bernie, if the story becomes him "Not renouncing Castro", then this was a successful hit job.

As others have said, Bernie's whole brand is being against Hillary's "evolving" and flip flopping. If he flip flops on his praise of Castro's social programs, Hillary can go after him for being a politician just like she is.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

Watching the full sanders interview from 1985, and I'm amazed at how much faster he talked then.

 

[Red]

He wouldn't have to flip or flop on anything.

In the full video he mentions "they are not perfect." He just needed to expand on that. That's all the moderators were looking for.

 

[GnawtyDog]

Doesn't matter that it's dishonest. That's what a lot of politics is, for better or worse (mostly worse, of course). Sanders had a chance to clear up the dishonesty and how out of context that segment is, but he completely dodged and focused on something else instead. If he dodges direct attacks like that instead of taking them head on and clearing up the dishonesty and manipulation there, that's not a good luck and is ultimately on him for not being able to effectively convey himself, not anyone else.

I'm fully aware that's why I support Clinton mainly. Bernie is extremely vulnerable to these attacks on this very record and republicans will be vicious. I actually expected Hillary to be more vicious in this primary at its outset but again I think she has played it smart for the most part given Bernie's strategy.

Just saying...it's nothing new, the traction it will gain is the traction voters are willing to give it (that has always been the case). In that sense, in the short-term, this snafu won't matter much for the the voters in South Florida, for the Florida democratic primary. In the general that's another story and another dynamic all together at play.

 

[Fat4all]

As others have said, Bernie's whole brand is being against Hillary's "evolving" and flip flopping. If he flip flops on his praise of Castro's social programs, Hillary can go after him for being a politician just like she is.

I feel like this should of been a chance to at least go more firm on Castro's negatives. He wouldn't of needed to flip.

 

[royalan]

Are you serious? Hillary has been getting mean with Bernie for debate after debate now.

Oh no, she hasn't been a delicate flower. Wouldn't say that. But look at the video. Look at his response. She can get a whole lot meaner.

Hell, I'll go as far as to say that Hillary has been aware of that video this whole time. Notice in her response, it wasn't directed at what Bernie said on stage, but on something that he said in the video in a segment that wasn't shown. She's been refraining.

 

[NullPointer]

I would argue he didn't. He tried to clarify the context, while holding on to his original compliment. And he thought he could get away with it. You don't do that.

You're arguing that he didn't denounce and stop. He absolutely clarified his context. And in context his statements make sense, and again, make up part of the crux of the movie Sicko.

But it doesn't matter because its an election season and clips can be cut.

 

[Phased]

He specifically clarified his context.

It doesn't matter to those who want to hang him with it. Doesn't matter the truth of it, nuance, or what he actually believes now or then - a string of words can be put together, cut and shown in clips on the news with the headline "praise for dictators".

This is the stupid, pandering aspect of politics.

This is politics in general, and either you can handle it or you can't. He's gotten off very easy so far with barely any attention thrown his way so we've not been able to see how he handles surprise stuff out of the blue; The answer is...not very well.

People pointing out that he was never gonna win Florida anyways are missing the bigger picture. Say he does get the nomination, Obama won Florida by less than 1% in 2012, and it has a respectable 29 Electoral votes. Florida isn't necessarily a must-win state for Democrats, but it kind of is for Republicans.

 

[Ekai]

The point is that Sanders' Castro comments are specifically on healthcare and quality of life improvements, not at all about his dictatorship.

It's getting twisted out of context because people are eager to find any weak link in Sanders' armor.

Pretty much.

 

[VendettaRed07]

He wouldn't have to flip or flop on anything.

In the full video he mentions "they are not perfect." He just needed to expand on that. That's all the moderators were looking for.

Saying Castro "wasn't perfect" may as well be an endorsement in this context

 

[Fat4all]

Just saying...it's nothing, the traction it will gain is the traction voters are willing to give it.

The Florida Primary is really close, so it will gain more traction than you'd think.

 

[A Human Becoming]

Watching the full sanders interview from 1985, and I'm amazed at how much faster he talked then.

Well that was 30 years ago and he wasn't running for president. Don't have to be so particular about your word choice and phrasing.

 

[Ekai]

I just want to say lol. If she wanted she could go scorched earth on his policies (as a form of electability), but she wants his supporters in the GE so she won't and she is probably going to win the primary so its not worth it. The fact that you think she is being mean shows you are in for an extreme rude awakening when the GE starts, if he can't fend off these attacks from Clinton he is literally toast in the GE before it even really begins.

He pushes back her constant lies pretty easily and her attempts to repeat and ingrain those lies sure as hell haven't worked.

 

[Red]

You're arguing that he didn't denounce and stop. He absolutely clarified his context.

But it doesn't matter.

The moderators created a context of Bernie endorsing all aspects of Castro's regime. He didn't get away from that.

 

[RustyNails]

Are you serious? Hillary has been getting mean with Bernie for debate after debate now.

I hope you stick around for the general election. This is...mean? lol dam.

 

[NullPointer]

This is politics in general, and either you can handle it or you can't.

I can call out the gotcha bullshit that drowns substantive debate and nuance, and I will.

The moderators created a context of Bernie endorsing all aspects of Castro's regime. He didn't get away from that.

That I understand. Just nobody stand up and say that he didn't "clarify his context". That's exactly what he did.

Some people might be upset he didn't just flat out condemn the regime and leave it at that, which would put him at odds with the video and open up further questions, and for that he'll get smacked down. Has nothing to do with clarity or context, but proper optics. I get it. Just nobody couch it in flowery terms.

 

[Ashodin]

The Florida Primary is really close, so it will gain more traction than you'd think.

With older voters sure, but young voters were out in force tonight, and ads will be run against Clinton's comments in the state.

He's not planning on winning it, but I'd bet good money he'll make up ground that he thought he had lost before MI's win.

 

[Draconian]

He wouldn't have to flip or flop on anything.

In the full video he mentions "they are not perfect." He just needed to expand on that. That's all the moderators were looking for.

Oh, so you wanted him to say something obvious that everybody already knows? Ok.

 

[Ekai]

I hope you stick around for the general election. This is...mean? lol dam.

Politicians spreading lies about their opponents policies is standard. I've been around for a few GEs now. I know how they run. Fact of the matter is, Hillary has been hella rude. Whether you accept that or not is another matter entirely.

 

[GnawtyDog]

Saying Castro "wasn't perfect" may as well be an endorsement in this context

That's like saying "Putin is a strong leader" being the deathbed of a candidate. Some voters will be swayed other will not and respect the "honesty".

 

[Red]

Oh, so you wanted him to say something obvious that everybody already knows? Ok.

Clinton played the whole thing against him for a reason.

It's not about what I want him to expand on. I know the context. I know the point he was making, and I agree with him. But as part of a debate performance he did not look good.

 

[RustyNails]

I can call out the gotcha bullshit that drowns substantive debate and nuance, and I will.

American politics is and always has been 90% gotcha bullshit, and 10% substantive and nuance. Every contender that was sunk was not because he couldn't answer a question, but because he looked like a fuckin idiot or said or did something stupid in the past.

 

[DR2K]

Politicians spreading lies about their opponents policies is standard. I've been around for a few GEs now. I know how they run. Fact of the matter is, Hillary has been hella rude. Whether you accept that or not is another matter entirely.

Where has Hillary lied again specifically? You've used the word lie, lying, liar more than Donald Trump just in this thread.

 

[B-Dubs]

Politicians spreading lies about their opponents policies is standard. I've been around for a few GEs now. I know how they run. Fact of the matter is, Hillary has been hella rude. Whether you accept that or not is another matter entirely.

Dude, this ain't shit compared to 2008. Obama and Hillary savaged each other constantly. Every debate turned into body blow after body blow. This doesn't even register in comparison.

 

[Fat4all]

Oh, so you wanted him to say something obvious that everybody already knows? Ok.

The point of debates is that not all voters do know, that's why they are asked questions for the public to view the answers.

Voters often don't have the full backstory when they get on the stage.

This ain't the WWE.

 

[And_Gignac]

The point is that Sanders' Castro comments are specifically on healthcare and quality of life improvements, not at all about his dictatorship.

It's getting twisted out of context because people are eager to find any weak link in Sanders' armor.

Well, Bernie gave them the ammo. He will probably make a clarification tomorrow and the topic will go to rest until the generals

 

[VendettaRed07]

That's like saying "Putin is a strong leader" being the deathbed of a candidate. Some voters will be swayed other will not.

But this is about Bernies image

He willingly chose to call himself a democratic socialist. He needs to constantly explain to people what that is and what that means. People showing videos like this and him not immidiately either retracting what he said or being stronger on his dismissals of Castro policies is going to tie his brand of socialism to the negative one most Americans associate it with

 

[Phased]

I can call out the gotcha bullshit that drowns substantive debate and nuance, and I will.

.

You thought this was a duel; It's actually a bar fight. While it isn't always pretty, that's the truth of it in pretty much any country that holds elections.

 

[eBay Huckster]

Well, Bernie gave them the ammo. He will probably make a clarification tomorrow and the topic will go to rest until the generals

at which point it won't get brought back up because the butcher of benghazi will EXTERMINATE ALL HOPE

 

[Striek]

People ITT are trying to hard to form narratives for/against the candidates they prefer/dislike (love/hate is probably more accurate). Its more like inter-party politics than intra-party.

Its amusing mostly because its the exact same shit Republicans do to Democrats, but in this case its justified. Transcripts, socialism, liar, unelectable, corporate, talking points.

These things can and should be discussed, except its the same 30 people mostly ignoring each other and trying to build a case to a wider audience which doesn't even exist here. Narratives wont be formed based on poligaf, no matter how darned hard you try.

 

[Ekai]

Where has Hillary lied again specifically? You've used the word lie, lying, liar more than Donald Drumpf just in this thread.

I already answered this question and even called out Hillary's shit as she was saying it in the debate in this topic. Even Bernie did.

 

[brainchild]

I went and re-watched Bernie's response, and while he could have answered better than he did, I noticed that he did acknowledge the negative aspects of the Cuban government (authoritarian/undemocratic), but placed priority on putting his original words into context. He wasn't just talking about one leader, but several leaders in the Cuban government.

Frankly, I don't think this will affect him that much, despite some Hillary supporters wishfully thinking that it will.

 

[Red]

Some people might be upset he didn't just flat out condemn the regime and leave it at that, which would put him at odds with the video and open up further questions, and for that he'll get smacked down. Has nothing to do with clarity or context, but proper optics. I get it. Just nobody couch it in flowery terms.

Gotta call you out on this one. Are you saying "context" is flowery, but "proper optics" isn't? And what's the distinction you're trying to make between these terms?
What's the difference between proper optics and clarity?

 

[RustyNails]

Politicians spreading lies about their opponents policies is standard. I've been around for a few GEs now. I know how they run. Fact of the matter is, Hillary has been hella rude. Whether you accept that or not is another matter entirely.

It's politics, and it always has been rude, Hillary or not. You are not in Burlington anymore. Trump is going to air Hillary her husband's sordid sexual details in front of her, if she becomes the nominee. If Cruz is the nominee he will call nominee Sanders a sandinista and an unrepentent terrorist sympathizer to his face. Gotta have a thicker skin to face your opponents.

 

[BrutishMrFish]

Politicians spreading lies about their opponents policies is standard. I've been around for a few GEs now. I know how they run. Fact of the matter is, Hillary has been hella rude. Whether you accept that or not is another matter entirely.

Bernie has been no better (ie. when he took credit for something that was part of Hillary's agenda, though the idea wasn't really his). The fact is that they've both been going easy on each other, because at the end of the day they don't want the GOP to win.

 

[Anastasia]

Watching the full sanders interview from 1985, and I'm amazed at how much faster he talked then.

He still does, but like any person he's not going to be talking at full speed depending on the situation, how he's feeling, etc. And of course he is older now. If you watch the Vox interview with him he goes at a pretty fast clip there.

 

[Red]

Someone mind transcribing his response so we can discuss the actual text?

 

[VendettaRed07]

I went and re-watched Bernie's response, and while he could have answered better than he did, I noticed that he did acknowledge the negative aspects of the Cuban government (authoritarian/undemocratic), but placed priority on putting his original words into context. He wasn't just talking about one leader, but several leaders in the Cuban government.

Frankly, I don't think this will affect him that much, despite some Hillary supporters wishfully thinking that it will.

It won't matter for the primary at all. Maybe in Florida but probably not. Hillary won't use it against him

It's just an indication of a weakness in regards to how he stacks up as a general election candidate

 

[Ekai]

It's politics, and it always has been rude, Hillary or not. You are not in Burlington anymore. Drumpf is going to air Hillary her husband's sordid sexual details in front of her, if she becomes the nominee. If Cruz is the nominee he will call nominee Sanders a sandinista and an unrepentent terrorist sympathizer to his face. Gotta have a thicker skin to face your opponents.

I'm not even a Vermont resident?

My response was to the statement made by a Hillary supporter that Bernie somehow started the mud-slinging when that is anything but the case here. I am aware no matter what shit-slinging will happen regardless of whether Hillary was in it or not. Hell, shit-slinging has been a thing literally since the first proper two-party election. Before even. But to act like she's been a perfect angel who has only retaliated because Bernie said some mostly inoffensive things is just ridiculous.

 

[NullPointer]

I went and re-watched Bernie's response, and while he could have answered better than he did, I noticed that he did acknowledge the negative aspects of the Cuban (authoritarian/undemocratic), but placed priority on putting his original words into context.

Frankly, I don't think this will affect him that much, despite some Hillary supporters wishfully thinking that it will.

The Cuban approach to healthcare makes up the core premise and resolution of the movie Sicko, which received universal critical acclaim, was nominated for an Oscar and helped drive the conversation forward on reforming healthcare in this country shortly before Obama took office.

But hey, Bernie Sanders said it so fuck him. Because its a bar fight or something. Let Republicans bash him all day for it, but the last thing I'd expect is for liberals and progressives to have a problem with it.

Gotta call you out on this one. Are you saying "context" is flowery, but "proper optics" isn't? And what's the distinction you're trying to make between these terms?
What's the difference between proper optics and clarity?

Whats the particular question when it comes to a need for clarity? And for context? Are people asking whether he extends his praise of their healthcare system to the regime as a whole? Because if that's the question he very specifically answered it.

If that's not the question, what is?

 

[GnawtyDog]

But this is about Bernies image

He willingly chose to call himself a democratic socialist. He needs to constantly explain to people what that is and what that means. People showing videos like this and him not immidiately either retracting what he said or being stronger on his dismissals of Castro policies is going to tie his brand of socialism to the negative one most Americans associate it with

He was always going to be associated with it. There is nothing Bernie can say that's going to change the narratives period. Other than of course renounce his true beliefs and record (thus get a phony label on top of a socialist label which is worse). The idea that he can walk away from his record with a couple answers - people are truly naive if they think a different answer here or there would change the outcome of what's coming to him eventually. The greater the threat he's to Hillary, or to Republicans the greater the pressure and the harsher the attacks. He will not be able to crawl away from it with perfect answers. There are no perfect answers. That's his record.

Just like Hillary can't walk away from her speaking fees, Benghazi, or her e-mails. There are no perfect answers that can wipe that out. That's her record. People either accept her truth and gloss over the minor details that might be damming or simply do not. Majority of Democrats have chosen to do so in the case of Hillary as have an overwhelming number of Bernie supporters done for Bernie's record in the "socialist" regard.

It's that simple.

 

[VRMN]

It won't matter for the primary at all. Maybe in Florida but probably not. Hillary won't use it against him

It's just an indication of a weakness in regards to how he stacks up as a general election candidate

You say after her team hit him on it minutes after the debate in a press release.

 

[BrutishMrFish]

My response was to the statement made by a Hillary supporter that Bernie somehow started the mud-slinging when that is anything but the case here. I am aware no matter what shit-slinging will happen regardless of whether Hillary was in it or not. But to act like she's been a perfect angel who has only retaliated because Bernie said some mostly inoffensive things is just ridiculous.

It makes the fact that you're doing the same thing for Bernie all the more hilarious. I voted for him, but I'm not going to bury my head in the sand when he does something I don't like.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

So wait will this affect the loosening of the trade embargo that Obama accomplished?

 

[Red]

The Cuban approach to healthcare makes up the core premise and resolution of the movie Sicko, which received universal critical acclaim, was nominated for an Oscar and helped drive the conversation forward on reforming healthcare in this country shortly Obama took office.

But hey, Bernie Sanders said it so fuck him. Because its a bar fight or something.

I have a Sanders yard sign in my front yard. I'm heading out after work tomorrow to give him an early vote. I'm not trying to force some anti-Bernie narrative.

Whats the particular question when it comes to a need for clarity? And for context? Are people asking whether he extends his praise of their healthcare system to the regime as a whole? Because if that's the question he very specifically answered it.

If that's not the question, what is?

Did he answer it though? He was very soft in his response and didn't address anything Clinton said to him. She got to associate his praise of Cuban healthcare with a regime disappearing people. He had the opportunity to clarify his position and condemn the violent actions of Castro's rule, but he did not.

 

[JesseEwiak]

I'm not even a Vermont resident?

My response was to the statement made by a Hillary supporter that Bernie somehow started the mud-slinging when that is anything but the case here. I am aware no matter what shit-slinging will happen regardless of whether Hillary was in it or not. Hell, shit-slinging has been a thing literally since the first proper two-party election. Before even. But to act like she's been a perfect angel who has only retaliated because Bernie said some mostly inoffensive things is just ridiculous.

No, mine and others argument is by the standards of the Clinton's, Hillary has barely hit Bernie and the Republican's have been largely ignoring Bernie. If you think a few lines out of context in a 30 year old video is bad, well....

 

[NullPointer]

I have a Sanders yard sign in my front yard. I'm heading out after work tomorrow to give him an early vote. I'm not trying to force some anti-Bernie narrative.

Not saying you are, and apologies if that's how I came across. I'm not upset at any posters here, just this idea that Bernie said something controversial when we know he didn't.

 

[Ekai]

It makes the fact that you're doing the same thing for Bernie all the more hilarious. I voted for him, but I'm not going to bury my head in the sand when he does something I don't like.

Haven't really but okay.

No, mine and others argument is by the standards of the Clinton's, Hillary has barely hit Bernie and the Republican's have been largely ignoring Bernie. If you think a few lines out of context in a 30 year old video is bad, well....

The person I initially quoted in this chain literally stated that Bernie started the whole "getting mean" thing. And if you're going to switch to this, again, I have to ask: you really think Bernie is somehow unelectable because of some random attack ad when Hillary is going to face the same? I mean really now.