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Destiny 2 Won't Use Dedicated Servers On PC (or presumably consoles either)

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tci

Member
Sigh....

Of course they have to be cheap on one of their most popular an profitable game. I guess their thirst for money outweighs the content of their customers. Cheaters will roam in piles.

This put me on the fence again.
 

Stranya

Member
I doubt reviews will matter at all. No way D2 isn't a top 5 selling game this year, at worst. The fanbase is huge and ravenous with many just wanting more content for D1. For a lot of people, any new stuff or additions will just be a bonus.
I agree that reviews won't make much of a difference to D2, but I would absolutely love to see a major outlet properly call out a huge release like this - just like an important film reviewer would call out a shitty film, regardless of who it's made by or how much it costs.

Doubt that will happen, tho, cos the relationship in the gaming sector between the (key) press and publishers/devs is way too cosy.
 

Kyoufu

Member
I agree that reviews won't make much of a difference to D2, but I would absolutely love to see a major outlet properly call out a huge release like this - just like an important film reviewer would call out a shitty film, regardless of who it's made by or how much it costs.

Doubt that will happen, tho, cos the relationship in the gaming sector between the (key) press and publishers/devs is way too cosy.

Destiny 1 has a 76 Metacritic and was slammed by critics when it launched.
 

Kthulhu

Member
I know what you're getting at, but Destiny 1's development & launch was a trainwreck, with microtransactions arriving much later. Their whole businessmodel didnt work out all that well for Destiny 1.

Fair enough.

I'm just frustrated that some people are defending P2P in a AAA online focused title.

Actually it will. Various anti bufferbloat guides show it. Short of you having next to no upload which is about .5Mbps or less sqm especially cake or fq-codel helps out. Anything after that is dramatically helped.

Do you have a solution that stops lag switches and my public IP being broadcast?
 

Lee

Member
Yeah saying p2p isn't an issue in 4v4, go play Trials in Destiny this weekend. 3v3 and connection issues are a huge problem. People getting dropped, red bars having the advantage, getting stuck in black screens. This is disappointing news for sure.

With that said, there were times in Destiny when CBMM was more of the priority than SBMM and the connection issues weren't as prevalent. Let's just hope they get the balance right.
 

GreyWind

Member
hiOuGWg.gif
 

Carn82

Member
Hopefully not too many.

Development costs and how budgets are allocated is not my problem as the consumer. This was an area somebody decided to compromise on and it will probably cost them at least my purchase as a result.

Core networking and infrastructure design decisions I assume were made earlier in development. It's too late to do much about P2P vs. dedicated servers before launch unless they already have changes in the pipeline (doubtful because they wouldn't be confirming this particular piece of news in that scenario).

I'm all for voting with your wallet, don't get me wrong. And I think P2P was chosen because when launching Destiny, selling that 'shared adventure' was going to be the primary challenge/goal and thats what the design went with. Not to mention the internal struggles they had to get the game out. But I agree that there is little reason for Bungie to not research that for Destiny 2 again and think "hey, why dont we use Dedicated for PvP?". I hope it will be addressed somewhere.
 
Whoa.

Pump the brakes guys.

Dedicated servers are always better than P2P, no question about it. These last few posts are misinformed

No they aren't, they are a better solution on paper and in concept, but they requiere more cost/investment, so in reality, they're only as good as they're investment in hardware.
 

LCGeek

formerly sane
Fair enough.

I'm just frustrated that some people are defending P2P in a AAA online focused title.



Do you have a solution that stops lag switches and my public IP being broadcast?

Lag switches have very little to do with bufferbloat. There are potential solutions but unless the game is heavily checking a client's link you can't do anything about lag switches, which are a shitty form of cheating. I would hope bungie and their unique experience to the subject would employ what I mentioned. Not hard to have the engine check users and see if they are artificially messing with their link.

Like I said though SQM manages the packets on your network to ensure the following.

1. All your packets are properly arranaged in to proper queue flows. Basically voip and gaming traffic don't get delays or put in the back of the queue.

2. Bufferbloat is minimized.

3. Bufferbloat is corrected when it happens.

4. Your packets are more properly shaped thus reducing or eliminating your router from having to convert them.

vs a fifo queue attached to old QOS which doesn't work until well after a problem happens or no QOS which can't fix latency issues that are being mentioned. For Peer 2 Peer play what I mentioned is a great baseline for gamers. Sadly we need more using anything vs nothing or the old shit which does nothing.
 

Iorv3th

Member
What really pisses me off about this is how Destiny 1 favors people with bad connections. It does not punish them for having a bad connection but instead they are usually on top of the leader boards. You can't kill them but they can still kill you.
 

E-flux

Member
In Pugb if you are lag switching or lagging really badly the game tells you that they have detected a poor connection and then you lose the control of your character for the time that your internet connection is jumping all over the place, there are ways to deal with lagswitchers, we will just have to wait and see if destiny does anything to them.
 

LCGeek

formerly sane
In Pugb if you are lag switching or lagging really badly the game tells you that they have detected a poor connection and then you lose the control of your character for the time that your internet connection is jumping all over the place, there are ways to deal with lagswitchers, we will just have to wait and see if destiny does anything to them.

I'm desperately on the side of hoping they implement something and that the something is effective during firefights when someone is most likely to employ that bullshit.
 

johntown

Banned
Not that I was going to play the PVP anyway on PC since I prefer a controller but this just further confirms it.
 

Kthulhu

Member
No they aren't, they are a better solution on paper and in concept, but they requiere more cost/investment, so in reality, they're only as good as they're investment in hardware.

Why are you defending this? You would lose nothing if Activision had dedicated servers setup for Destiny 2.
 

Sarcasm

Member
No they aren't, they are a better solution on paper and in concept, but they requiere more cost/investment, so in reality, they're only as good as they're investment in hardware.

uh what..so adding extra things on top of P2P with the chance of toaster host on a 1 mbps down & .5 mbps up connection is better then dedicated?
 

Carn82

Member
seems that things are still a bit up in the air on what they're doing.


With Destiny 1 multiplayer, there were some issues with latency. And PC gamers demand very tight latency in multiplayer games. Have you taken any extra steps with the PC version to facilitate that?


We’ve done a bunch of stuff overall. We’ve heard that across the board, so we have looked at our tech and tried to figure out "okay, where can we optimize, how can we reduce that." So there is new tech coming, but I would say that, at the moment, it’s not specifically geared toward PC. But again, we have things we are doing to kind of get to the last push, so we’re very cognizant of those issues and we’re definitely trying to deliver the best experience possible.

Is it still peer-to-peer in terms of the multiplayer? Are there dedicated servers?

It is a complicated typology. We do not have dedicated servers for Destiny 2 on PC.

Because one of the issues with Destiny 1, people complained about the tick rate that was being used, right?

Yep.

That led to a lot of trading and stuff, and that was where they kind of identified that that’s where some of the lag was coming from. Is there going to be a different tick rate?

I would say that, today, we don’t have a good answer for that, meaning we’re not talking about the server side of things at this time. I can tell you that we have had conversations and we’re aware of—we try really hard to listen to the community and hear what their concerns are, and we try to take those and turn those into the plans.

http://www.pcgamer.com/how-bungie-plans-to-make-destiny-2-on-pc-legit-on-day-one/
 
The original destiny didn't have dedicated several either and it was fine. As long as they refine the networking side even more, it's none issue for me.
 

Carn82

Member
I'm telling you it's all a PR attempt to save face. Ubisoft said the same thing and plenty of people had issues.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Seems that it will be the familiar case of developers saying: "We're doing our best to improve that experience" vs people on Gaf/Reddit/Whatever saying "Designated servers or Bust". I'm just pointing out that it seems that they are atleast acknowledging the expectations that people have.
 
Why are you defending this? You would lose nothing if Activision had dedicated servers setup for Destiny 2.

It's not about defending them, it's about understanding why first and then make your thoughts.

Dedicated servers are no magical solution as people think they are, it's not as simple as having them and that's it. They're only as good as their implementation, just like everything.

uh what..so adding extra things on top of P2P with the chance of toaster host on a 1 mbps down & .5 mbps up connection is better then dedicated?

If the cost/performance it takes to implement is, then yes, that's their main reasoning behind this. see?
We tick our Activity Hosts at 10Hz, which allows us to run almost 5000 per server [40 core, 256GB] Given that we typically have a bit over 2 players per Activity Host in real world conditions, that means our datacenter can handle a hypothetical 1 million concurrent users with only a couple hundred servers, and that's with plenty of safety headroom on each machine. That's dramatically better scale than trying to use a full dedicated server. With full dedicated servers, that same hypothetical 1 million players would require half a million headless PS3 processes, each running our full game simulation.
 

Hybris

Member
It's not about defending them, it's about understanding why first and then make your thoughts.

Dedicated servers are no magical solution as people think they are, it's not as simple as having them and that's it. They're only as good as their implementation, just like everything.

Have we seen any recent P2P implementations that have worked well? In my experience, even a mediocre dedicated server setup is better than P2P. Though I'll admit I haven't played much P2P in the last 5-7 years.
 

Kthulhu

Member
¯_(ツ)_/¯

Seems that it will be the familiar case of developers saying: "We're doing our best to improve that experience" vs people on Gaf/Reddit/Whatever saying "Designated servers or Bust". I'm just pointing out that it seems that they are atleast acknowledging the expectations that people have.

I'm just saying to be skeptical and wait for reviews. P2P has problems that I haven't seen a single dev fix it outside of GGPO (which they can't use for Destiny). You can polish a turd all you want, but that doesn't change what it is.
 
Have we seen any recent P2P implementations that have worked well? In my experience, even a mediocre dedicated server setup is better than P2P. Though I'll admit I haven't played much P2P in the last 5-7 years.

It's hard to measure from this side, but, put it this way, the more people playing, the better it should be, since you'll be matching against a bigger pool of players who are closer to you or even with better connections than you.

When it's not the case, you get the constant issues we're having now with the game, less people playing and farther away, bad matchmaking settings make this even worse.

A great example of shit server side implementation was BF4, netcode and server side hardware requirements made the game work like shit most of the time, even with the original low tick rate. The solution? Optimize the software and push even more hardware horsepower into them.
 
No they aren't, they are a better solution on paper and in concept, but they requiere more cost/investment, so in reality, they're only as good as they're investment in hardware.
BF1, Overwatch, The Division, hell even Halo 5 has dedicated servers. I'm pretty sure they can invest in them without breaking their poor billion dollar wallet.
 

Kthulhu

Member
It's not about defending them, it's about understanding why first and then make your thoughts.

Dedicated servers are no magical solution as people think they are, it's not as simple as having them and that's it. They're only as good as their implementation, just like everything.



If the cost/performance it takes to implement is, then yes, that's their main reasoning behind this. see?

I never said they were a magical solution. Not matter how good you can get P2P, it'll never be better than a well run server for a game like Destiny.

Activision doesn't get to use the "it's cheaper" response. I willing to bet the microtransactions you know they'll put in will work perfectly the day they get added.
 
BF1, Overwatch, The Division, hell even Halo 5 has dedicated servers. I'm pretty sure they can invest in them without breaking their poor billion dollar wallet.

All of them, except Overwatch work like shit in my region (South America), do you know why? Because how expensive it is to deploy servers. What should people in that situation do? not play the game.
That leads to a lost sale, Activision/dev not happy.

Why would i invest in this expensive server which will limit my reach of potential sales?, easy, you don't.

Activision doesn't get to use the "it's cheaper" response. I willing to bet the microtransactions you know they'll put in will work perfectly the day they get added.

Of course they get to use it, it's one of the reasons they make so much money, they're great at managing costs, specially for hosting services, i even recall an article that said that it was one of the main reasons Bungie signed their contract with them.

And no, a shit dedicated server will work just as bad.
 
Awesome news! Can't wait!
kIVDnVD.gif

One of the biggest reasons why I stopped playing Destiny. I honestly didn't mind the loot grind as much as constantly seeing this bullshit in PvP. Enemies hovering around the map. Ammo crates not giving you ammo. Getting hit and dying around corners... Really disappointing that they didn't talk at all about fixing one of the most broken aspects of the first game :/
 
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