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[StueyDuck]

Anything that is labeled Extraction Shooter or is a PvPvE game is just a no go for me. Add a pure PvE component with the PvPvE optional or you can go away.

I prefer a Co-Op action game or FPS where you can play solo or with friends like Deep Rock Galactic with clear diagonal progression. You farm currency for rewards, upgrades or better gear.

I just don't find the FPS/TPS Roguelites with extra steps fun or interesting. It's perfect for people that enjoy masochism and love gambling for a rng loot drop.

If you go back and watch the original announcement trailer for arc raiders it feels we were robbed of a superior experience, at least in my opinion

It was essentially helldivers2 before we even knew helldivers2 existed, had cool jetpacks and like an attack on titan grappling mechanic. Big ass battles, raid bosses etc.

Personally I find extraction shooters have very little design past the gameplay, its just collect number of things in area X over and over and over. Even DMZ was just that over and over.

I think theu struggled to create a free to play helldivers2 like experience because it would require lots of content and constant support and additions. Where with extractions you can just randomize the number amd the area and people will spend hours and hours doing it like a second job.

But arc raiders is the new hotness right now so I doubt the "passionate" fans are going to be willing to have a thoughtful dissection of the genre, it is gamers after all... not the most emotionally stable and level headed bunch when it comes to this type of thing.

My genuine bets for arc raiders, by March next year its mostly forgotten except the 20k or so whales that will pump money into it keeping it alive

 

[analog_future]

I ended up buying into the hype and picked this up on Steam.

I put a little over an hour into it, and I will say that the game feels really solid and I can see why it's clicking with people.

With that said, I just don't think this genre is for me and I ended up refunding it. I think I'm just more of a classic Battlefield/Halo/COD person for online shooters.

 

[wipeout364]

My hot take; Extraction shooters will always be niche. There will be a couple of success stories but they will never reach the heights battle royale games did.

People hate lost progress, especially when it feels like it was unfairly taken which is a fundamental core tenet of extraction shooters.

The reason people accept battle royale games is because every run is a fresh start and there is no expectation of losing anything other than what you just found and you can't take it with you anyway.

 

[KaiserBecks]

ARC Raiders was F2P over the weekend and basically acted as a timed demo. Impressions I saw on here were mixed at best.

It was a server stress test with very limited content that didn't act as a fair representation of the final game at all. It was a way for Embark to ensure a smooth launch whilst giving those who played tt2 and were screaming for more something to play.
I can see how people who only played the game that weekend ended up being disappointed, the devs shouldn't have turned it into a promotional event.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Extraction Shooter Sand: Raiders of Sophie appears to be blowing up...

The genre is (almost) can't miss if you're a AA or a AAA studio. Absurd RoI...

 

[begotten]

Only Bungie got it wrong.

 

[clarky]

Only Bungie got it wrong.

Negative. Great game, they just got the budget wrong.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

They're not going to want to admit this, but Sand just gave Marathon until Season 10.

 

[MiguelItUp]

While the genre ain't my favorite, I think there's more that can be done with it to make it more enticing. It's just risky, and a lot of devs are scared of risk these days, and I can't say I blame them.

For me, personally, I still think the most unique one is Dark & Darker, especially around the time it first dropped. There's been a lot of other wannabes that have come and gone since it was originally available. I think Hunt is up there too honestly. I think Marathon deserves praise too, honestly. Especially for its bold art style, design, setting, etc. That being said, D&D held my attention much longer than any other extraction title. Hunt was probably second, and then Marathon third. Aside from that, the majority just feel and look like another "modern day extraction shooter" with a similar setting and weaponry.

Hunger is the only one that's coming out that I'm interested in, but we'll have to see how that pans out.

 

[Luipadre]

While the genre ain't my favorite, I think there's more that can be done with it to make it more enticing. It's just risky, and a lot of devs are scared of risk these days, and I can't say I blame them.

For me, personally, I still think the most unique one is Dark & Darker, especially around the time it first dropped. There's been a lot of other wannabes that have come and gone since it was originally available. I think Hunt is up there too honestly. I think Marathon deserves praise too, honestly. Especially for its bold art style, design, setting, etc. That being said, D&D held my attention much longer than any other extraction title. Hunt was probably second, and then Marathon third. Aside from that, the majority just feel and look like another "modern day extraction shooter" with a similar setting and weaponry.

Hunger is the only one that's coming out that I'm interested in, but we'll have to see how that pans out.

Yeah hunger looks great. They doing another test tomorrow and hopefully EA launch in a few months

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Based.

 

[MiguelItUp]

Yeah hunger looks great. They doing another test tomorrow and hopefully EA launch in a few months

Right? Definitely digging what I've seen, really hoping it lands. Mmm hmm, I've been on their Discords like white on rice, hoping that I get in. But we'll see. Worse come to worse, I'm excited about seeing new content soon, and being THAT much closer to EA.

 

[Luipadre]

Right? Definitely digging what I've seen, really hoping it lands. Mmm hmm, I've been on their Discords like white on rice, hoping that I get in. But we'll see. Worse come to worse, I'm excited about seeing new content soon, and being THAT much closer to EA.

new patch notes are on steam. Looks like they did a major overhaul on most things, definitely getting ready for EA

 

[MiguelItUp]

new patch notes are on steam. Looks like they did a major overhaul on most things, definitely getting ready for EA

Yeah, I saw that. The Discord was going gaga, lol.

 

[Mengy]

They're not going to want to admit this, but Sand just gave Marathon until Season 10.

How so? Sales and playercounts from Sand of Sohpie have zero to do with Bungie or Marathon?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

How so? Sales and playercounts from Sand of Sohpie have zero to do with Bungie or Marathon?

If a game like Sophie does well, it'll convince more of the higher ups that there's something special about this genre and perhaps Marathon requires more attention to deliver.

Even NeoGAF can not deny the genres potential any longer.

 

[clarky]

I just like games with stakes these days.

It hurts like hell when you die in a decent extraction shooter and provides a similar inverse feeling when you are successful.

It's like the videogame equivalent of self harming.

Looking forward to DMZ this fall personally. Lots of untapped potential in the genre if you ask me.

 

[Ssech]

Men in Boxes, you have convinced me the genre has mainstream appeal. The younger (Z) generations tastes have changed enough from the aging geriatric X and Millenial forums crowd that the others here simply can't see it.

I still don't have much faith in Marathon though.

 

[uncreativename]

I think the makers of the genre (Ubisoft) nailed it from the get-go. From The Division (with influence from Day Z and Stalker), to Tarkov, it's always been about the fantasy of being a desperate scavenger with a gun trying to steal everyone else's baked beans to put in your bunker lol. Oh, and when you die you have to lose everything you were carrying, otherwise what's the point. So it's uniquely high risk and high tension.

So sure, maybe they are too hardcore for a lot of people. Too bad.

I think maybe an even bigger problem, though, is that Tarkov, the main game in the genre, wasn't even on Steam until recently, and it's well known to be infested with hackers.

 

[JMart100]

Extraction shooters have the same hurdle Housemarque's last two titles do… losing progress suck diddly ucks Flanders.

It feels like time wasted, and in this case, the most un-fun thing I can imagine is getting a bunch of cool loot and then being afraid to ever use it, or that being part of the mental calculus.

It is a hardcore genre, and when you add in the rampant cheats and hacks and all, nah… I'm good. And I feel like my opinion reflects the vast majority of the gaming public. It's niche because of the risk involved in giving your time over to it. Even if part of a roguelike or a souls game is being forced to get better through repetition, failure, and eventual success, that feeling of progress doesn't click for everybody. And in extraction, it's even worse, because your lack of progression can be felt when you get all your stuff ganked by a sweat with a mod hack.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Men in Boxes, you have convinced me the genre has mainstream appeal.

 

[Mengy]

Extraction shooters have the same hurdle Housemarque's last two titles do… losing progress suck diddly ucks Flanders.

It feels like time wasted, and in this case, the most un-fun thing I can imagine is getting a bunch of cool loot and then being afraid to ever use it, or that being part of the mental calculus.

It is a hardcore genre, and when you add in the rampant cheats and hacks and all, nah… I'm good. And I feel like my opinion reflects the vast majority of the gaming public. It's niche because of the risk involved in giving your time over to it. Even if part of a roguelike or a souls game is being forced to get better through repetition, failure, and eventual success, that feeling of progress doesn't click for everybody. And in extraction, it's even worse, because your lack of progression can be felt when you get all your stuff ganked by a sweat with a mod hack.

Yep, you are not alone. This is the reason why the extraction genre remains small and difficult to succeed in. Most gamers just do not like that feeling of losing most or all progression to other players in an instant, its just not fun for most people. Some people love the punishment of it, but most do not. Arc Raiders was brilliant for doing two things to greatly lessen that sting:

1) Added the safe pockets which still allowed some measure of progression even in defeat.
2) Added AGMM (aggression based match making) which siphoned like minded players together, thereby putting the sweaty shoot on sight people together while also putting gamers who prefer co-op PvE together. This also greatly diminished the sting of losing everything in an instant.

My hunch is the golden formula for a wildly successful extraction game is more akin to Helldivers II than Marathon. A game which is strictly co-op PvE with no PvP at all (or better yet an optional PvP mode), coupled with robust crafting and endgame content, and regular wipes which still permit some form of long term progression between the wipes as well. The sweaty PvP part of extraction isn't appealing to large audiences, this has been proven by the numbers again and again, but I do think the extraction mechanic as a whole has some potential.


So, regarding the thread title "did everyone get extraction wrong", this statement might be correct. Arc Raiders may have stumbled on a working extraction formula but the lack of content support and endgame have hampered it, Escape from Duckov sold very well as a single player extraction game, but its not a live service so it gradually faded away. Hellidivers II is only partly an extraction game but its been wildly successful as is. All of the PvP extraction games keep having lackluster launches and fade off as their sweaty natures drive away players. I think there is potential in extraction, but devs seem to keep chasing the losing formula while ignoring what the data is actually showing.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Yep, you are not alone. This is the reason why the extraction genre remains small and difficult to succeed in. Most gamers just do not like that feeling of losing most or all progression to other players in an instant, its just not fun for most people. Some people love the punishment of it, but most do not. Arc Raiders was brilliant for doing two things to greatly lessen that sting:

1) Added the safe pockets which still allowed some measure of progression even in defeat.
2) Added AGMM (aggression based match making) which siphoned like minded players together, thereby putting the sweaty shoot on sight people together while also putting gamers who prefer co-op PvE together. This also greatly diminished the sting of losing everything in an instant.

My hunch is the golden formula for a wildly successful extraction game is more akin to Helldivers II than Marathon. A game which is strictly co-op PvE with no PvP at all (or better yet an optional PvP mode), coupled with robust crafting and endgame content, and regular wipes which still permit some form of long term progression between the wipes as well. The sweaty PvP part of extraction isn't appealing to large audiences, this has been proven by the numbers again and again, but I do think the extraction mechanic as a whole has some potential.


So, regarding the thread title "did everyone get extraction wrong", this statement might be correct. Arc Raiders may have stumbled on a working extraction formula but the lack of content support and endgame have hampered it, Escape from Duckov sold very well as a single player extraction game, but its not a live service so it gradually faded away. Hellidivers II is only partly an extraction game but its been wildly successful as is. All of the PvP extraction games keep having lackluster launches and fade off as their sweaty natures drive away players. I think there is potential in extraction, but devs seem to keep chasing the losing formula while ignoring what the data is actually showing.

This is a pretty reasonable take.

I'd disagree with you about the removal of PvP though. The most successful Extraction Shooters going forward will court both audiences. My hunch is that they'll combine the two player types by gimping the PvP playstyle.

- Make it so PvP players have a harder time dealing with AI enemies.
- Give PvP players horse blinders or limit where they can travel on each map so they can't hunt PvE players as effectively.

The genre at its core is poker (with guns)...but the best scene in Rounders is that final 10 minute dual between Matt Damon and John Malkovic. Most players won't participate in a game where your stuff can be taken in the snap of a finger.

 

[Mengy]

This is a pretty reasonable take.

I'd disagree with you about the removal of PvP though. The most successful Extraction Shooters going forward will court both audiences. My hunch is that they'll combine the two player types by gimping the PvP playstyle.

- Make it so PvP players have a harder time dealing with AI enemies.
- Give PvP players horse blinders or limit where they can travel on each map so they can't hunt PvE players as effectively.

The genre at its core is poker (with guns)...but the best scene in Rounders is that final 10 minute dual between Matt Damon and John Malkovic. Most players won't participate in a game where your stuff can be taken in the snap of a finger.

I think there is also a solid case for simply separating the two types of gamers in an extraction shooter: Have the player select either PvP or PvE at character creation and then simply keep the two types separated into their own servers. Its essentially what happens in Arc anyway when someone just refuses to PvP. Sure there is the occasional rat encounter or someone who goes on killing sprees in a friendly queue, but most of the people who want PvE in Arc would rather just not deal with the PvP peeps. I don't PvP in Arc and like 90% of my runs are 100% friendly and co-op, so why not simply make it a mode and allow people to play the way they want to?

I think if Marathon straight up had a PvP toggle at character creation today it would have more than double the players it currently does. A lot of gamers just want to shoot things and earn some progression after a hard days work without too much undo stress, having a mode for those gamers can only increase the potential audience and it wouldn't need to impact the PvP mode in any way whatsoever.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I think there is also a solid case for simply separating the two types of gamers in an extraction shooter: Have the player select either PvP or PvE at character creation and then simply keep the two types separated into their own servers. Its essentially what happens in Arc anyway when someone just refuses to PvP. Sure there is the occasional rat encounter or someone who goes on killing sprees in a friendly queue, but most of the people who want PvE in Arc would rather just not deal with the PvP peeps. I don't PvP in Arc and like 90% of my runs are 100% friendly and co-op, so why not simply make it a mode and allow people to play the way they want to?

Not saying your way is impossible, (Tarkov already does it), but I think there's two issues that design runs into.

1. If games are social networks, you don't want to split friend groups up. It's better to drag PvE players into PvP scenarios (and vice versa) than to hard lock players into two seperate buckets. Friends naturally want to play with one another as long as the experience is fun enough.

2. I'm not sure how much extra effort designing two seperate experiences actually is. I know you think Marathon would be 2x as popular if it had an explicit PvE mode but the AI in the game really doesn't have the depth to support that. The AI is designed to alert other players of your position and to drain resources. That design doesn't lend itself to a PvE only experience.

My bet is that in 5 years, the most successful (popular) Extraction Shooters are putting PvE and PvP players in the same bucket.

 

[DEAD ORIGINAL]

GTA V is the best extraction shooter.

 

[mdkirby]

It just occurred to me, Dave the diver is an extraction game

 

[Mengy]

It just occurred to me, Dave the diver is an extraction game

Yes in many ways it follows the extraction formula, just in a casual single player PvE manner. And it currently has 13K players in-game with a with a nightly climb up around 50K. Doing much better than Marathon is!

And thats why I keep saying all of these PvP focused extraction games are doing it wrong. The real gold, in my opinion, is in more casual PvE or co-op extraction games.

 

[Zacfoldor]

I'll comment.

The mainstream contingent not tied to an existing game is often looking for novelty. Extraction provides that but the game modes need to stay fresh, unpredictable, and noteworthy. Game sessions need to tell interesting and unique stories.

When a great novel game pops up like this new art one that is out there is a large contingent that visit the game up front during virility and some will stay and some will go.

So the omega genre for GAAS isn't a genre. It's an idea. Novelty, freshness, excitement, low barrier to entry. These are the omega genre for gaas and they always will be. While extraction may populate that space today we will see a new genre de jour tomorrow just like we saw a different one yesterday(battle royale). We can see in real time some of these ideas growing stale and new ones springing up. Each idea will capture its own long term audience but the wider audience moves with the the virility. They are seeking new experiences, not refined older ones.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Yes in many ways it follows the extraction formula, just in a casual single player PvE manner. And it currently has 13K players in-game with a with a nightly climb up around 50K. Doing much better than Marathon is!

And thats why I keep saying all of these PvP focused extraction games are doing it wrong. The real gold, in my opinion, is in more casual PvE or co-op extraction games.

This is an interesting game. I will try.

If you think about it, Counter Strike is an Extraction Shooter too. You must gamble on when to plant the bomb and you extract with a higher rank.

You compare the CCU of Counter Strike to Road to Vostok, you will see the data shows the genre is innately PvP based.

(DAVE THE DIVER IS NOT AN EXTRACTION SHOOTER)

 

[SEGAvangelist]

thomasmahler should compare this to Communism. People keep making these games thinking THIS time they'll get it right.

 

[SeanyQuest]

We have yet to get a true arcade style shooter version of tarkov(CoD this Fall baybeee) that also supports a fucking controller. Novel concept I know. But on the other hand, people absolutely hate having to screw with their inventory game to game. Especially after a run where they died. Its not like going into create a class and equiping a red dot and blue tiger and youre done. Its more inventory management than necessary and its a total put-off.

The leveling up of skill trees is another thing that just shouldnt even be a part of this genre. Wipes arent fun either.

Yeah I think its over for genre growth.

 

[Mengy]

You compare the CCU of Counter Strike to Road to Vostok, you will see the data shows the genre is innately PvP based.

I disagree. Two very popular extraction shooters, Helldivers II and Deep Rock Galactic, are both PvE co-op shooters. And the most popular, Arc Raiders, has a very strong PvE component to it. Even Escape from Duckov, a single player PvE extraction shooter, sold much MUCH more than Marathon did.

I know you want the extraction genre to be very PvP focused, but the data supports that the road to a highly successful (profitable) extraction shooter is instead PvE focused.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I disagree. Two very popular extraction shooters, Helldivers II and Deep Rock Galactic, are both PvE co-op shooters. And the most popular, Arc Raiders, has a very strong PvE component to it. Even Escape from Duckov, a single player PvE extraction shooter, sold much MUCH more than Marathon did.

I know you want the extraction genre to be very PvP focused, but the data supports that the road to a highly successful (profitable) extraction shooter is instead PvE focused.

There are PvE based Extraction Shooters...

The Forever Winter, Road to Vostok, Duckov, Zero Sievert, Incursion Red River, Witchfire etc

They are all generally less popular than the PvP based Extraction Shooters. They seem to lack retention hooks.

Escape from Duckov peaked at 300k (vs 80k for Marathon) but it's already meandering around 1.5k (compared to 8k for Marathon).

If you read the reviews of Helldivers 2 and Deep Rock Galactic, they are not called Extraction Shooters because they are not Extraction Shooters. These two games are called "4 player coop" because they lack Extractions core identity".

I feel they are posthumously being called Extraction Shooters by PvE players wanting the genre to be PvE based.

Poker (with guns) is PvP. PvE gamers are more concerned with the power fantasy than competitive, high intensity moments.