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Die Hard: With A Vengeance was SO CLOSE to being better than the first...

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Unfortunately, the third act is a bit of a mess and holds it back from being the action masterpiece it nearly was. Even by the filmmaker's own admission on the DVD commentary track, the first hour of Die Hard: With A Vengeance is the series at it's very best. They lament the choices made in the late stages of production and the hatchet job that was made to the final third of the script in an effort to try and find a fitting ending.

The first half of the film is flawless; McClane is called in from his suspension because a terrorist is setting bombs off in NYC. This is the first time we get to see McClane in his own element...and maybe the point of the Die Hard series was always to pull him out of his element...but here, we get the grand stage of New York as a backdrop to the ensuing mayhem.

New York, in this film, is fully realized. It plays a starring role with minutiae characters being woven in and out of the story that give the city a true sense of place and presence. It's alive with colorful characters who all affect or react to the events that unfold. From people on public phones, to operators at their call centers, to people overhearing news broadcasts on the radio; the film goes out of it's way to make NYC as visual and as memorable as Nakatomi Plaza was in the first film. Even a kid who rides his "getaway bike" past McClane after a petty theft has a way of affecting the story ("It's Christmas, you could steal City Hall"), much in the same way that the guy on the plane who imparts the "fists with your toes" advice to McClane, does.

One of the elements of this film that I appreciate far more than in Die Hard are the police themselves; here we get policemen, firemen, city officials, and various other municipal workers actually doing things that feel real and completely believable. They react to the situation in real ways. Even though they're being played for fools by Simon Gruber (and we'll get to him in a minute), at least we don't have the bumbling idiots from the first film who feel like they're there to deliberately sabotage everything that McClane is trying to do. Again, a role as small as McClane's superior officer feels prominent and relatable. He feels like a person who actually cares about John McClane. "Did you talk to Holly?" he asks, concerned, at the start of the film as McClane nurses a hangover. "Beer is usually taken internally, John." another officer says to him as she helps him get ready for the difficult task ahead.

Again, these are all small side characters who feel like they've known John for quite a while. It's the little details; but they're woven into John's character so well, with little bits of dialogue that are just right, we feel like we've known them as long as we've known John. They are an extension of his character, and the mythology that the series adheres to so well (in the first three, anyway).

Next up, we have the absolutely stellar chemistry between Bruce Willis and Samuel L. Jackson. This is Willis doing some of his best stuff in the series, overall, and it feels like that's a result of Jackson's presence, who thankfully finds his way into the story not long after the film starts. As a result of this pairing, the film dares to play with topical and subversive themes, the strongest of which being the hot-button racial issues that are as relevant today as they were decades ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8n_1qgA2DM

The film was ahead of it's time, in some ways (when's the last time we seen a summer action blockbuster open the way this movie did? You know what scene I'm talking about).

One of the final elements of the film that really stands out is the villain himself, Simon Gruber. Dare I say it, he's the perfect follow-up to his brother, Hans. You couldn't have found a better master criminal than in Jeremy Irons portrayal of the methodical, intelligent, and highly sophisticated ex-soldier whose real motivation is the biggest gold heist in U.S. history. McClane is just a means to an end, and Simon is even happy to let the death of his brother slide and leave him to wallow in defeat, until McClane shows up at his front doorstep, that is. Simon is one of the truly great "polite villains" of cinema; he's a gentleman and a good sport who plays by his own twisted set of principles. You can't help but love to hate the guy, much in the same way we do Hans. The real fun is in Simon's riddles and mind games that he lays out for McClane and Zeus. These should have continued to build right up until the very end, but sadly that's where the film goes off the rails in the third act.

If there's one thing that With A Vengeance is guilty of, it's straying too far from it's initial story beats and structure and leading us into a third act which feels all over the map and stitched together from a number of ideas. In trying to give the film it's own "continuity" within the Die Hard mythology, it sets McClane up as an alcoholic who suffers from a hangover throughout the entirety of the film. To tie up loose ends, the film has Gruber suffer from crippling migraines, giving him a reason to have a bottle of aspirin on hand at all times. This, in turn, gives McClane a reason to ask him for a bottle of aspirin while he and Zeus are strapped to a massive bomb on a ship. And, of course, this is the last little piece of the puzzle that falls neatly into place, helping McClane and Co. track Simon down. Why? Because the duty free border shop where Simon purchased the aspirin (on the Canadian border, no less) is listed on the bottom of the bottle...wait, what?

It's around the time that McClane and Zeus split up (McClane to investigate the aqueduct, while Zeus heads to Yankee stadium) that things really start being stretched thin, and the plot begins riding on a series of moments that feel strung together, haphazardly, rather than being an organic extension of plot and setting that the rest of the film achieves so well. The plot edges ridiculously close to complete incoherentness, as everything begins to buckle under a sudden lack of logic, odd editing choices, and an anti-climactic final showdown between hero and villain (Zeus riding shotgun in a helicopter for no other reason than to be there and not take part in the last stand is really, really disappointing).

So GAF, this is my long rant, a case for Die Hard: With a Vengeance. What could have been an action masterpiece is brought down considerably by a disjointed third act.

Still, those first two-thirds...I really do think it's the series at it's very best.
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Yea, as soon as the puzzles stop, the film really falls apart. They should have kept the original ending as well.
 
This movie lost me in one plot point, when Bruce Willis was shot out of the water tunnel, he was magically land near where Sam L is.

And the ending was kind of meh. It felt "okay guys, time to warp this up."
 
I fully agree. It's still a great action film, but it does fall apart towards the end. Getting Jeremy Irons as the villain was near perfect casting.
 
This movie lost me in one plot point, when Bruce Willis was shot out of the water tunnel, he was magically land near where Sam L is.

And the ending was kind of meh. It felt "okay guys, time to warp this up."

That's exactly within the timeframe where the movie starts to shit the bed.
 

liquidtmd

Banned
A belief I hold dear.

It was amazing. Jeremy Irons hamming it up

croptop-1432043206.jpg


A great cast of supporting players

latest


Willis actually playing McClane and not just a dour self-parody

latest


Id go far to say my only problem with it was when it got to the boat. The boat blowing up felt like a naturally climatic third act turn.

Them heading to the border just killed the momentum dead. Other better choices could have been made in the third act too. But overall WAV is the film I've rewatched the most. Great soundtrack and some amazingly inventive cinematography.
 
I prefer it to the first.

The end is disappointing but the rest of the film is better.

I agree that the rest of the film is better than the first. Literally the first hour is flawless.

I just can't forgive the gaping plot holes and choppy editing in the shitty third act.
 
A belief I hold dear.

It was amazing. Jeremy Irons hamming it up

croptop-1432043206.jpg


A great cast of supporting players

latest


Willis actually playing McClane and not just a dour self-parody

latest


Id go far to say my only problem with it was when it got to the boat. The boat blowing up felt like a naturally climatic third act turn.

Them heading to the border just killed the momentum dead. Other better choices could have been made in the third act to. But overall WAV is the film I've rewatched the most. Great soundtrack and some amazingly inventive cinematography.

Agree with everything you've said, and it's also the DH film I've rewatched the most. It's easily the most watchable film in the series, even with the third act.
 

Blader

Member
It was my first Die Hard so I have a special fondness for it just because of that, but I do think it's a legitimately great action movie with an unfortunate rush job of an ending -- neither version really works, and I think the original feels especially weird and out of place.
 
This movie lost me in one plot point, when Bruce Willis was shot out of the water tunnel, he was magically land near where Sam L is.

And the ending was kind of meh. It felt "okay guys, time to warp this up."

yeah, both those parts smell of "we have no idea how to move this script along so fuck it."

Still, DHWAV is at least better than DH2 which was just fucking DH again. My wife got me the Nakatomi Plaza set for xmas so I can finally see DH4 aND see if its any good
 

News Bot

Banned
You can tell the precise moment where the movie stopped being "Simon Says" and was forced into being a Die Hard made.
 

Sanjuro

Member
It has moments, but I never saw the overall appeal of the film. I arguably enjoyed the second one just as much.
 
yeah, both those parts smell of "we have no idea how to move this script along so fuck it."

Still, DHWAV is at least better than DH2 which was just fucking DH again. My wife got me the Nakatomi Plaza set for xmas so I can finally see DH4 as see if its any good

Haven't seen Die Hard 4 in ages but my memory of it was that it wasn't a very good "Die Hard" movie but it's enjoyable as dumb fun with set pieces that get increasingly silly.
 

zma1013

Member
yeah, both those parts smell of "we have no idea how to move this script along so fuck it."

Still, DHWAV is at least better than DH2 which was just fucking DH again. My wife got me the Nakatomi Plaza set for xmas so I can finally see DH4 as see if its any good

DH4 is a dumb fun action movie but McClane is essentially a Terminator in this movie and the set pieces get rather absurd as it goes along but still fun to watch and you can see the very beginnings of Bruce Willis not giving an F anymore but strangely it kind of works for the character that is now on his 4th time fighting against terrorists.
 

Christopher

Member
My only problem with it is they totally cut out all the supporting characters from the first two films.

Carl Winslow, his wife, and the reporter all prominent in the first two films are gone...
 
I hated that original ending. It's cool but very Not John McClane.

I think there was another ending written but never filmed where Simon gets away with his group only to find the bomb from the park(the water jug puzzle) armed where McClane left it.

Last line we hear from Simon is "Does anyone have a 3 gallon jug?"
 

hbkdx12

Member
The movie is nothing less than stellar and is only brought down by the final act and everything that happens after zeus and mcClane board the boat.

It's my favorite die hard movie without questions. I've seen it so much and have had it on as background noise so many times that I can pretty much quote the entire movie line for line up until they get on the boat. I always turn the film off when they get to the boat. It's just so bad.
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
Yeah that ending is much better then the shitty helicopter ending that was in the movie.

I don't think either ending works but OP is right the third act does fall apart and I agree with the poster that said the ship blowing up felt more like the conclusion of the third act. Overall it's a damn fine action movie which completely the holy trinity of DH films.
 
I watched it again last summer and really liked it. NYC really does feel lie a living character and not just a location. I love how 90s the movie is too, and how it's right on the cusp of being in the digital age but still largely analog if that makes sense.

I hated that original ending. It's cool but very Not John McClane.

I think there was another ending written but never filmed where Simon gets away with his group only to find the bomb from the park(the water jug puzzle) armed where McClane left it.

Last line we hear from Simon is "Does anyone have a 3 gallon jug?"

I only recently heard about this and thought it would have been the best ending.
 

Raptomex

Member
It's a great film but not many action movies even come close to the first Die Hard.

Die Hard was going strong until the last movie. Like Lethal Weapon, there was no bad Die Hard movie in my eyes until A Good Day to Die Hard. That movie was just bad.
 
It's a great film but not many action movies even come close to the first Die Hard.

Die Hard was going strong until the last movie. Like Lethal Weapon, there was no bad Die Hard movie in my eyes until A Good Day to Die Hard. That movie was just bad.

My wife hadn't seen the Die Hard films until we got the collection recently. We watched DH2 and she was on her phone about an hour in because, well, it's DH2

Even though it's very much a flawed action film, DHWAH is still a heck of a lot of fun for the majority of the film but especially before you're clued in on the twist. Unlike DH2, WAH really feels like a sequel to the first film and isn't afraid to lean into it to make itself better instead of mimicking it to simply make itself
 

Sephzilla

Member
*Shrug* I'm in the minority with this but I actually think Die Hard 3 is the weakest of the first 4 movies (nothing comes close to Die Hard 5 in terms of sucking). Die Hard 2 gets a lot of flack for being "Die Hard 1 but in an airport". Die Hard 3 is Die Hard 1, except in New York.

--Bad guy is a Gruber
--McClane gets a black sidekick again
--John and Holly have an estranged relationship again
--Bad guys pretend they're terrorists
--Surprise! It's actually a bank robbery!

The only things missing are Richard Thornberg and Nakatomi Tower. Die Hard 3 also has the worst use of the yippee-kay-yay line.
 

DasTanK

Member
I hated that original ending. It's cool but very Not John McClane.

I think there was another ending written but never filmed where Simon gets away with his group only to find the bomb from the park(the water jug puzzle) armed where McClane left it.

Last line we hear from Simon is "Does anyone have a 3 gallon jug?"

That would have been cool but didn't Simon use it to blow the dam?
 
I hated that original ending. It's cool but very Not John McClane.

I think there was another ending written but never filmed where Simon gets away with his group only to find the bomb from the park(the water jug puzzle) armed where McClane left it.

Last line we hear from Simon is "Does anyone have a 3 gallon jug?"
But then what bomb did Simon use to blow up the dam in the tunnel?
Edit: too slow on mobile. Lol
 

Lonestar

I joined for Erin Brockovich discussion
Yeah, I think I've always liked this one the best of the Die Hard movies. Ending doesn't work as a climatic ending, more like an epilogue, with the Boat blowing up being the end of the main plot.

Thing I liked the most, was the way Zeus and John splitting up to accomplish the goals worked. Just felt right, unlike some movies that attempt this sort of thing (well, I guess minus Zeus finding the right manhole cover that John gets shot out of, after the dam explosion).

Some of Sam Jackson's best work. "You're going to blow it alll UPPP?!?!"

Also, Jeremy Iron's german accent :lol Not sure if it's considered a good one, but it's pretty cool sounding. Jeremy Iron's should have been more popular, just for his voice. Really amped for his role in BvS.
 
That would have been cool but didn't Simon use it to blow the dam?

In that script version the bomb wasn't used to blow the dam. It was saved for the ending where McClane gives Simon a taste of his own medicine.

Wiki:

According to the DVD audio commentary, a second alternate ending had McClane and Carver floating back to shore on a makeshift raft after the explosion at sea. Carver says it is a shame the bad guys are going to get away; McClane tells him not to be so sure. The scene then shifts to the plane where the terrorists find the briefcase bomb they left in the park and which Carver gave back to them (in this version it was not used to blow up the dam). The film would end on a darkly comic note as Simon asks if anyone has a 4-gallon jug. This draft of the script was rejected early on, so it was never actually filmed. The rocket-launcher sequence was the only alternate ending to be filmed.
 

p2535748

Member
It's a fine action movie, and I remember loving it when it came out in theaters, but it's really nowhere near on the same level as the first, for a few reasons:

1. The villain: Jeremy Irons is great, there's no doubt about that, but his character isn't as good as Rickman's, and isn't given nearly as many great lines. The scene with Takagi, the scene with Harry, the response to "you're just a common thief", there's so much great stuff from Rickman here, and while Irons is undoubtedly excellent, he's not on the same level.

2. The sidekicks. There's the guy who's a ripoff of Karl, the psychotic woman and .. the fat guy who's killed in the elevator? The original crew is handled better.

3. The twist. It's the same as the first, essentially, and therefore it can't help but feel a little like a retread. There is the secondary twist, but that's towards the end, when the film has largely gone off the rails.

4. The tone. For my money, Die Hard strikes the perfect balance between being jokey without undermining the central tension of the film. Vengeance strays a bit too far into jokes territory, and while Jackson and Willis make it enjoyable, it makes the central plot suffer a bit.

5. The ending. Man that film goes downhill after the puzzles end.

For me, Vengeance feels like a well done mid 90's action movie, while the original feels like a singular thing, it transcends being just another action movie.
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Do people like Die Hard 2? As a massive fan of the original (like any sane person should be), I never really liked the sequel. It really does feel like one of those cheapo 80's sequels that just rehashes the original. I'd rank it behind Die Hard 4.
 

Sephzilla

Member
Do people like Die Hard 2? As a massive fan of the original (like any sane person should be), I never really liked the sequel. It really does feel like one of those cheapo 80's sequels that just rehashes the original. I'd rank it behind Die Hard 4.

I like Die Hard 2 more than Die Hard 3 to be honest. I think the second movie gets too much flack. I also give it props for being the only Die Hard movie that isn't about a damn robbery.
 

andthebeatgoeson

Junior Member
H-h-h-hardly.

Besides SLJ putting in good work, it's great but not as great as the first. The first had pacing, an all time great villain and some believability. Great cinematography.
 
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