How does it prove that the source is MS? He probably rather means that MS wasn't specific to their actual dev source.
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DigitalFoundry: X1 memory performance improved for production console/ESRAM 192 GB/s)
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How does it prove that the source is MS? He probably rather means that MS wasn't specific to their actual dev source.
Flatline
Banned
Did you read the tweet Metalmurphy posted?
Gemüsepizza
Member
Uhh but shouldn't they? What's the point of vaguely hinting at such important stuff?
I don't even know what the point of that defense is.
The developer didn't follow up how they get to 192GB/s and 133GB/s but random dudes on B3D, GAF, reddit and the Eurogamer comments come up with that question instantly?
With your assumption we have MS just throwing 2 numbers out there. The developer just accepting them without question. Talking to Leadbetter about them who also accepts them without question and then writes an article about it.
Who gained anything from it?
Yes?
LittleJohnny
Banned
Do you feel the same way when Mark Cerny calls the PS4 a "Super Charged PC" I'm going to guess he leaves a good taste in your mouth.
API/Driver changes mostly just are written down in changelogs/mails. I don't think MS went there in personal and told them about the change and thus they weren't able to explain these numbers in detail.
Can you point to a source where he said that? I've followed this stuff a lot but that quote must have slipped by me. I tried googling it but I only see it in the comments of articles.
Metalmurphy
Member
He said it was basically a super charged PC architecture. Which is kind of true. You don't get that architecture on a PC.
Yes I'm very interested in this "super computer" quote. Seems insane if true, otherwise you should take a break and calm down LittleJohnny.
Oh I remember "supercharged PC architecture" and the accompanying interview explaining what that means.
I just don't remember "super computer".
Flatline
Banned
The tweet said Microsoft not the mysterious dev. So the dev is only repeating what Microsoft tells them. So the only reason mentioning the dev in that article is to give credibility to Microsoft's PR. A dev btw that could easily be a Microsoft first party studio since they seem very eager to repeat what Microsoft tells them without testing the secret super technique themselves first.
Your meltdown is great reading btw.
R3TRODYCE
Member
Well that came out wrong.
HAHAAH no no really no
but i dont play the game "we like to put down everything"
i want to say it again
sony is doing better ...but ms trying to fix things
IonicSnake
Banned
To be fair Cerny said it was super charged. He said "super computer on a chip" but was referring to what they called Cell if I'm not mistaken.
LittleJohnny
Banned
Correction, he was calling the Cell processor a supercomputer, the exact term used when referencing the PS4 was Super charged PC, my bad, question to him still stands, if MS made similar comments they would leave a bad taste on most people's mouths, its just how it is around here
hydrophilic attack
Member
Such as yourself?
It apparently mattered to you a lot last gen when 360 got the better multiplats..
^ Looks like we will get a lot of mileage out of that quote from oldergamer
Thanks for the offer, but not being a hardware engineer / specialist myself I am hardly in the position to suggest the topic for such a thread. Nevertheless, with my limited knowledge, I'm curious whether the PS4 really is a system with no bottlenecks as advertised by Cerny - as others have written above, perhaps the specs are laid out to optimally use 14 of the CUs for rendering, thus making the graphical difference to Xbox One minmal, with only minor gains when using more? Perhaps the sound chip in the PS4 only has limited functionality (in contrast to the Xbox One chip, which according to sources seems to be very potent), thus taking away some of the processing power for advanced audio?
Again, all I am pointing out is that I notice a decidedly higher trust in assertions regarding the PS4 prowess vs. Xbox One.. It appears the second some good news / rumours about the PS4 appear, dozens of people instantly praise it, and when the same happens with Xbox One, dozens rise to debunk / question it. I know this is quite a broad statement and it will be hard to prove it with sources, but I don't think you would disagree that there is a general distrust / negative mood concerning MS and the One - of course there are very good reasons for that (see PR debacle, 180s etc.). Still I think many people are overreacting, thus losing part of their objectivity..
Can Crusher
Banned
This dumb argument would work wonderful if NeoGAF hadn't been around when Sony fucked up the PS3 at launch.
Too bad we have posts from that era in addition to IRC logs that absolutely dispute everything you're saying.
And CELL processor was supercomputer enough to be purchased in bulk by universities and the Air Force. That's why that term can be true for one system while untrue for the successor of that system.
Search on GAF for PS4 and bottleneck and you'll find plenty of discussion that question that specific claim. I even participate in one of them.
If there is an audio chip that can nullify a 600gflop difference then I'm sure that would be flaunted.
Except MS still has yet to release any specs and keep say things like comparing hardware architecture is meaningless. Also lets not forget the disaster of a PR scandal runs they've been doing. Sending mixed messages etc.. So the doubts aren't unreasonable
R3TRODYCE
Member
Buy this man a drink!Here's what I don't get about the DF hate. They also clearly point out that the calculation that nets you 102.4GB/s is still valid for separate reads and writes, yet everybody is glossing over it. And, sure, there is some genuine interest here about the theoretical number, but to a great degree you also largely see people being babies over the fact that DF had the audacity to report something positive about the XB1. if this news were mostly negative, and it had similarly contradictory numbers, you wouldn't hear a single complaint from some people.
We now have people stressing over the headlines for the PS4 and the Xbox 1. The PS4 is suppose to be the more powerful system, and not by a small margin based on how people have been talking. Plus it's suppose to be easier to develop for on top of that fact. So is it not reasonable that it be held to an even higher standard, where it should be expected to outperform the Xbox One? The way people were underestimating the Xbox One, and still are, you would think the console wasn't capable of games like Forza 5 at 1080p 60fps, or even Ryse. Did some of the PS4 comments about games not running at 1080p and 60fps seem unfair? Sure, but that's journalism. They take advantage of what is largely the popularly held belief and toy with it. By all accounts, based on some of the boasting done prior to E3 about the power gap, you got the sense that people felt that the PS4 should be able to take any Xbox One game, double the graphics quality (and resolution), toss in some extra bells and whistles, and then still run it at a much better framerate than the inferior Xbox One version. People have said some pretty outrageous things about the power differences between the PS4 and Xbox One on this site and numerous other places, so it isn't that unreasonable that DF expected to see very clear signs of this level of technical superiority on display at E3, or at least are playfully piggybacking some of the expectations.
This is the same place where when Forza 5 was announced as being 1080p at 60fps, countless people refused to believe a word of it, suggesting that they must be lying, or that it must clearly not be native 1080p. On the flip side, if a PS4 title is announced as running at 1080p, nobody doubts that it's native. I say some people are a just victim of their own outrageous expectations, and anything that even remotely appears to make attempt to challenge their belief that the Xbox One is a completely weak and incapable console that can't even run pong at 720p 60fps, the pitchforks come out. I've doubted or criticized DF in the past, and will continue to do so in the future within reason, but I don't think I've ever gone as far as some people are currently regarding this story. I think I maybe joked early on (or maybe just thought it, but didn't express it openly) that this would somehow be turned into bad news for the Xbox One and a thread dedicated to attacking MS, and sure enough, 46 pages later, we have mission accomplished. I think the only thread that grows faster than negative Xbox One news, is positive Xbox One news.
Black Republican
Member
a 1/4 milli views yo!
dragonelite
Member
Every system has an weak component and hence a bottleneck.
Some would say the CPU in next gen console will be the bottlenecks.
miDnIghtEr20C
Banned
Maybe he's a fan of the underdog? I found it amusing that an X1 game took game of E3.
boredandlazy
Member
I think he's had enough already.
R3TRODYCE
Member
Templar_Dante
Banned
Had no intention to go public, like that (controlled PR) ("LEAKED") internal memo that said they know how how much gamers love freedom to play offline and it candycoated the truth about daily/hourly check ins?
Edit: Have you guys read the comments on the DF comment section for the article? Most people believe its a PR spin. In 2006, such a ploy would work. These days, we're a tiny bit smarter.
^This !
If you mean we didn't see games running on PS4 devkits then well..
http://www.exophase.com/60285/knack-crash-reveals-new-ps4-details/
If you mean we didn't see games running on PS4 Retail units, then you are correct.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
klaus said:
Well, Cerny has been pretty specific and technical about the PS4's design philosophy and its function, he's also got the credentials to back up what he says.
Leadbetter, not so much. AFAIK he has no specific track record as programmer, let alone as a hardware engineer. At best he's just parroting information he's heard as filtered through his own limited understanding.
It's kind of funny that you're doing exactly what he said. Positive news becomes 'well of course...' with the goal posts for something actually being positive moving farther down the road. Forza looking good was because it was on a PC and it wouldn't look that good. When it was revealed it was on Xbox One hardware, then of course it looked good, look at all the limitations, etc...
miDnIghtEr20C
Banned
I'm talking console. Ya, I know it's on PC too... but console wise it's only coming to X1 and 360. (but i'd imagine the 360 version will be pretty gimped, like BF3 on consoles compared to the PC version.)
But ya, I was meaning console vs console. PC is a whole other beast that blows away both new consoles anyways.
ps.. . I'd of imagined Forza 5 would of come closer to winning it than Ryse. Although Ryse does look like it can be some fun at times.
I would love to see the quotes where he moved the goal post as you are accusing him
You think people are shocked by how Forza looks on 1:2Tflops system? Especially with no dynamic lightning, No day and night ,no weather and limited damage?
Using Forza as an example for XB1 isn't helping your point.
This. I'm so tired of the smoke and mirrors shit. Just give us the numbers already.
Yeah with all that content scrapped I wouldn't expect anything less than 1080/60. Game is rushed
Launch titles are never representative of their system's full potential.
Buh? They are? Is this a rumor or is it confirmed?
LOL, now we are undermining what was shown at E3??
I can't understand the failboat of saltiness going around.. You expect MS to come out with a full set of 'numbers' that most manufacturers don't ever do (just headline ones), knowing full well that everyman and his dog (and MS) know will be less then PS4??
What is the ultimate goal, clearly most hate MS for not telling them, then most hate MS for being underpowered, and most hate MS for charging more because any perceived increase in value must be hardcore gaming value or GTFO???
I'm staggered by the irrationality and circle jerkiness of it all, but hey-ho.. carry on..
I can't understand the failboat of saltiness going around.. You expect MS to come out with a full set of 'numbers' that most manufacturers don't ever do (just headline ones), knowing full well that everyman and his dog (and MS) know will be less then PS4??
What is the ultimate goal, clearly most hate MS for not telling them, then most hate MS for being underpowered, and most hate MS for charging more because any perceived increase in value must be hardcore gaming value or GTFO???
I'm staggered by the irrationality and circle jerkiness of it all, but hey-ho.. carry on..
LittleJohnny
Banned
I agree, MS' PR has been a disaster and they're responsible for all the negative backlash but I think that things have snowballed more than MS stumbling over and over, for example if we erased their first conference and the whole DRM debacle, when Forza developer made comments about not entirely removing jaggies until we can kit 4k would not be tacked on as another negative comment for MS. If we just judged E3 at face value, and if we really were just going to go by games announced, Xbox One would've dominated.
Let's face it, it's not really "all about the games" that's something people just throw around to not look like system fans, right now (especially) it's all about the spec's and which console is more powerful. The proof is in comments saying: "So the PS4 is still more powerful? then what's the point of this thread? lol". To those people it's all about Which system is more powerful, but we already know the answer to that, the question is how significant will it be? The truth is that it will be more than PS3 vs 360, probably the difference between GameCube vs Xbox, maybe even less given that not only did GameCube have less available ram at a slower speed, but also did not have a programmable shader GPU, it was from the generation prior to DX8 in terms of compliance, but both PS4 and X1 have GCN architectures with the same level of compliance running the same total pool of ram (Albeit different philosophy's on dealing with bandwidth) however the GPU in the PS4 has more compute units, that's where the true difference comes from, and what that difference translates is the only thing that matters, not what's on paper. That difference has to happen quickly too, there's not point in purchasing one console over the other at launch for specs alone if the difference in visuals is not happening right away. If I need to wait a couple of years before I can see the difference between PS4 and X1, then I'll just wait until that happens or buy games for the PC at that point.
Imo it's mostly about the games, but also about the upgrade a console gets when moving from one generation to the next and no one can deny that Xbox One is a generational leap over the 360, the PS4 just happens to be a little better in terms of CU's and an easier setup with unified GDDR5 ram, but that does not make the upgrade from 360 to Xbone any less significant.
If I compared this to my other hobby of electronics, I have an 10 yr. old Canon DSLR camera and I'm thinking of upgrading to the Canon 7D, a definite worthwhile upgrade, I could also get the Nikon D7000 which is considered to be better, but I'm already used to Canon and have their lenses, getting a Canon 7D is a great choice and a worthy upgrade, I can't even imagine anyone from the Nikon camp jumping on the Canon folk, it just seems childish, there's always a better camera out there, just like there are PCs that can handle 5+ TFLOPS, so looking at consoles argue over the difference between 1.2TF vs 1.8TF is comical when there's hardware that can do 5TF or more.
So yes, it's mostly about the games and a big part is whether the upgrade is truly an upgrade over the previous generation, otherwise why bother. Xbox One covers both, heck even the included Kinect 2.0 is a generational leap over Kinect 1.0. There's always going to be a slightly better product out there, but thank God there's limited choices because if there were a third console by NVidia or Google having stronger spec's than the PS4, it would go back to completely being "All about the games" and that would just make my stomach turn.
I'm sure those statements were not made adjacent to each other or by the same person.
And that nib95 is somehow the one moving the goalposts when the initial thread where no weather, day and night cycle was confirmed is full of negativity while simultaneously being full of Forza fans.
Everyone keep in mind. We have functional search here on GAF with a lot of archive.
If you make such statements finding out of if this is an accurate representation of what occurred here on GAF is less than a minute of search away.
A little bit better is such an understatement. No need to be coy with these things. We have numbers released on one side and inferred on the other side.
The Xbox One is a generational leap over the 360 and PS3. It just sucks that instead of pushing the system actually forward to more parity which would benefit every one that plays on Xbox One, PS4 or PC, we have this spin-bullshit where one system magically is supposedly better all of a sudden instead of actually better because they improved something tangible.
We have one system lagging significantly behind while releasing at the same time and being the baseline for next-generation of gaming. This sucks and spinning numbers doesn't change that. If they actually improved the thing that would change something.
I love this guy. No "infinite power of the clowd" bullshit. No fluff. No excuses. Just data.
Why isn't Cerny a gif god the way Kaz is?
I've never moved the goal posts or claimed it wasn't running on proper hardware when I saw it. On the contrary, I said I expect it to look better by launch since all these games are not final software. But nice try.
Here's what I don't get about the DF hate. They also clearly point out that the calculation that nets you 102.4GB/s is still valid for separate reads and writes, yet everybody is glossing over it. And, sure, there is some genuine interest here about the theoretical number, but to a great degree you also largely see people being babies over the fact that DF had the audacity to report something positive about the XB1. if this news were mostly negative, and it had similarly contradictory numbers, you wouldn't hear a single complaint from some people.
We now have people stressing over the headlines for the PS4 and the Xbox 1. The PS4 is suppose to be the more powerful system, and not by a small margin based on how people have been talking. Plus it's suppose to be easier to develop for on top of that fact. So is it not reasonable that it be held to an even higher standard, where it should be expected to outperform the Xbox One? The way people were underestimating the Xbox One, and still are, you would think the console wasn't capable of games like Forza 5 at 1080p 60fps, or even Ryse. Did some of the PS4 comments about games not running at 1080p and 60fps seem unfair? Sure, but that's journalism. They take advantage of what is largely the popularly held belief and toy with it. By all accounts, based on some of the boasting done prior to E3 about the power gap, you got the sense that people felt that the PS4 should be able to take any Xbox One game, double the graphics quality (and resolution), toss in some extra bells and whistles, and then still run it at a much better framerate than the inferior Xbox One version. People have said some pretty outrageous things about the power differences between the PS4 and Xbox One on this site and numerous other places, so it isn't that unreasonable that DF expected to see very clear signs of this level of technical superiority on display at E3, or at least are playfully piggybacking some of the expectations.
This is the same place where when Forza 5 was announced as being 1080p at 60fps, countless people refused to believe a word of it, suggesting that they must be lying, or that it must clearly not be native 1080p. On the flip side, if a PS4 title is announced as running at 1080p, nobody doubts that it's native. I say some people are a just victim of their own outrageous expectations, and anything that even remotely appears to make attempt to challenge their belief that the Xbox One is a completely weak and incapable console that can't even run pong at 720p 60fps, the pitchforks come out. I've doubted or criticized DF in the past, and will continue to do so in the future within reason, but I don't think I've ever gone as far as some people are currently regarding this story. I think I maybe joked early on (or maybe just thought it, but didn't express it openly) that this would somehow be turned into bad news for the Xbox One and a thread dedicated to attacking MS, and sure enough, 46 pages later, we have mission accomplished. I think the only thread that grows faster than negative Xbox One news, is positive Xbox One news.
I salute you sir, for having the balls to go against the tide. Crazy how little attention PS4 gets compared to X1 threads (especially the rare positive ones).
Metalmurphy
Member
Oh the irony.
Pure bullshit. This is insulting to read.
If Nvidia or Google had the same third-party support as Microsoft or Sony while being at price point that would allow it to build significant market share then Sony and MS would be criticized in that scenario.
This is fanboy-level meltdown hypothetical craziness.
qa_engineer
Member
Seriously. I stopped posting in this thread, for the most part, because of posts like the one littlejohnny made. Its like watching conspiracy theory videos on YouTube. I don't even.gif
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