Saviours of gaming and of mankind.I know how we can settle this: Kamitani x Ayami crossover game. Everyone is beautiful and sexy and we achieve world peace.
Saviours of gaming and of mankind.I know how we can settle this: Kamitani x Ayami crossover game. Everyone is beautiful and sexy and we achieve world peace.
For anyone interested, read this article on what constitutes sexist design. It should clear up some of the misunderstandings in this thread.
Here's its conclusion for those who are lazy:
Well, how would you feel about the sorceress if her appearance should be (not suggesting it is) justified in-universe?
I ask not as a challenge but because I respect your opinion even when I don't agree.
2) However, the design sends a message: This is what men like, and this is what women should look like to be attractive.
Oh no, please don't speak on behalf of every artist.2) However, the design sends a message: This is what men like, and this is what women should look like to be attractive.
While I love Kamitani, Ayami already draws gorgeous women:I know how we can settle this: Kamitani x Ayami crossover game. Everyone is beautiful and sexy and we achieve world peace.
Again, if you like the design choice, fine. I'm just explaining where the concern comes from. That's all.
which yes, includes a number of supermodels.
I'm not speaking to the author's intent. I'm speaking to how most women would interpret this. Most women would look at art of the sorceress, and see it as the statement, "Big boobs are what's desirable in women."Oh no, please don't speak on behalf of every artist.
I like to draw characters that vary in "attractiveness" but not once have I considered telling a woman she must or feel compelled to look like it.
Also, my avatar refers to all tits! Nipples ahoy!
What do women think when they see the Elf and Amazon, then? "That's nice"?I'm not speaking to the author's intent. I'm speaking to how most women would interpret this. Most women would look at art of the sorceress, and see it as the statement, "Big boobs are what's desirable in women."
I don't know if that's how the artist feels. But it's what most women would probably think looking at the art. And the more they see messages like this, the more it weighs on them. Hence why so many girls get implants now.
No it doesn't. I've covered this. The Sorceress' design is exaggerated to the point of parody. If someone can't distinguish between parody and reality then they have bigger issues than the media surrounding them.2) However, the design sends a message: This is what men like, and this is what women should look like to be attractive. It sends this message because it is an extreme version of other depictions sending the same message, which yes, includes a number of supermodels.
You're picking and choosing a specific subset of the genre known for the "average guy hot wife" setup. You can pick any number of other popular shows to prove this idea wrong. Angel, Firefly, House, Sherlock, Game of Thrones, those vampire shows, Tudor, the list goes on.3) Women are affected differently than men in this regard, because women live in a society where they are constantly bombarded by such messages. Guys can see Fabio on a romance cover and usually won't be bothered by it because they live in a society where the average sitcom has a homely guy married to a supermodel babe (I.E. "King of Queens," etc).
There's a slimmer Archer they can identify with. That's the beauty of the designs in this game. If you feel the need to express your self-identity through the game, most of the ground is covered.4) If someone looks like the Sorceress, they wouldn't feel diminished by someone wanting a more "modest" character instead, because the whole point is to not make -other- women feel inadequate. Wanting a modest character doesn't mean they find the busty character undesirable -- totally the opposite. They're just concerned for the feelings of women with smaller builds.
Kamitani is an artist first and foremost. This is not the time or place to bring up this debate. There are a whole host of other games that have far less reasons to sexualize their characters than a Kamitani game. The only reason the reaction to this thread is so strong is because her design is so ludicrous. Many more typical examples of pandering are completely overlooked because they're not as attention grabbing.5) And again, women ARE affected. They're affected in ways men will never be, due to the very nature of society. The reason this design, then, makes me uncomfortable, is because I feel it represents, more brazenly than most, the message that woman should look this way. It's true there are many different builds of women in this game. But this is the one most overtly pushing a sexual quality (boobs spilling on skeleton's skull in one piece of art).
I'm talking about the slow-motion-wet-T-shirt-ultra-cleavage scenarios seen in many a college movie, beer commercial, etc. Those kinds of supermodels. Depictions of sexual attractiveness frequently reduce a women to her tits. When women see this all the time, many start to feel their self-esteem erode, because they feel they don't measure up.Are you sure you're correct with that? This woman is pretty well endowed yet super/catwalk models are all thin as twigs with very small chests due to their weight.
What do women think when they see the Elf and Amazon, then? "That's nice"?
I'm not speaking to the author's intent. I'm speaking to how most women would interpret this. Most women would look at art of the sorceress, and see it as the statement, "Big boobs are what's desirable in women."
I don't know if that's how the artist feels. But it's what most women would probably think looking at the art. And the more they see messages like this, the more it weighs on them. Hence why so many girls get implants now.
I'm talking about the slow-motion-wet-T-shirt-ultra-cleavage scenarios seen in many a college movie, beer commercial, etc. Those kinds of supermodels. Depictions of sexual attractiveness frequently reduce a women to her tits. When women see this all the time, many start to feel their self-esteem erode, because they feel they don't measure up.
There's something flawed in that. Like, if more and more characters were drawn as ugly, does it become desirable (even when ugliness is already hated), or is it just something the individual imagines?I'm not speaking to the author's intent. I'm speaking to how most women would interpret this. Most women would look at art of the sorceress, and see it as the statement, "Big boobs are what's desirable in women."
I don't know if that's how the artist feels. But it's what most women would probably think looking at the art. And the more they see messages like this, the more it weighs on them. Hence why so many girls get implants now.
I think most women (well, people) will look at Dragon's Crown and go "Ew, this is what you're playing you fucking nerd? Is that a gameboy?!" :V
Yeah they talked about that as a gameplay concept very early on.
That she would have finite arrows and have to pick them up off bodies or have the thief find more for her in order to fire her weapon.
So spacing and resource management are very important aspects of her playstyle
Probably the character I want to see/play the most
What do women think when they see the Elf and Amazon, then? "That's nice"?
Well, of course.I think most women (well, people) will look at Dragon's Crown and go "Ew, this is what you're playing you fucking nerd? Is that a gameboy?!" :V
Most will look at it not as parody, but as something people actually find hot. And so the message continues to be sent.No it doesn't. I've covered this. The Sorceress' design is exaggerated to the point of parody. If someone can't distinguish between parody and reality then they have bigger issues than the media surrounding them.
I wouldn't underestimate the influence of the primetime family sitcom. The fact there have been so many, yet none with a homely woman and a hot husband, is just one of many depictions that erodes women's self-esteem.You're picking and choosing a specific subset of the genre known for the "average guy hot wife" setup. You can pick any number of other popular shows to prove this idea wrong. Angel, Firefly, House, Sherlock, Game of Thrones, those vampire shows, Tudor, the list goes on.
He's an artist, and we're reacting to his art.Kamitani is an artist first and foremost. This is not the time or place to bring up this debate. There are a whole host of other games that have far less reasons to sexualize their characters than a Kamitani game. The only reason the reaction to this thread is so strong is because her design is so ludicrous. Many more typical examples of pandering are completely overlooked because they're not as attention grabbing.
Everyone has nipples. I didn't specify a gender, or a type!You're objectifying all women, then.
Well, how would you feel about the sorceress if her appearance should be (not suggesting it is) justified in-universe?
I ask not as a challenge but because I respect your opinion even when I don't agree
Also, are we arguing about whether this is sexist or misogynist? One is implicit to the other, but not necessarily the other way around.
Not everyone has "tits". At least, I've never gone up to a guy (or had one come up to me) and say "nice tits" or "show me your tits". What's your experience with this? ;-)Everyone has nipples. I didn't specify a gender, or a type!
She's not even sexy. Those proportions are simply absurd, imo.
Not if you are into anime.
Should every single visual representation of female characters in games be fair, realistic, and within the bounds of somebody's (whose?) good taste?
Is this visual representation more important than how a female character is written and portrayed in the game's mechanics and story?
Is it worse for Dragon's Crown's powerful female characters to have emphasis placed on their idealized sexual characteristics, or for Half Life's Alyx to serve as little more than a virtual girlfriend/damsel-in-distress, despite having a conservative appearance?
Should Vanillaware change their mode of personal expression because it makes you uncomfortable?
Is Vanillaware the worst offender in this area, or just the one that's the most visible to you at the moment?
If it's justified in-universe with a valid reason and the character displays agency to the extent that the over-exposed massive breasts and pronounced ass are chosen by the fictional character alone, then I don't think the design isn't sexist.
Neiteio, you and Lime and some others are incapable of grasping this one point:
All your criticisms just come off as prudish, knee-jerk reactions.
OMG BIG TITS, MUST BE SEXIST.
I dont like playing a game with big bouncing tits and characters moaning and groaning. Sorry. It's not because I get outraged and all white knight, it's because I find it unnecessary, off-putting and embarrasing.l
lol
anyway, some of the defense force is completely misguided
I dont like playing a game with big bouncing tits and characters moaning and groaning. Sorry. It's not because I get outraged and all white knight, it's because I find it unnecessary, off-putting and embarrasing.
the "i'd feel embarrased to play this in public" isnt a literal statement in the sense that i'd give a shit about what people around me think, but rather that this type of content fits the bill of legitimately feeling like it's content aimed at a taste that isn't mine. Yes i'd feel weird playing a game like this in public because I would already feel weird playing it myself.
It's fun seeing people who cant deal with someone just not liking something and giving their own personal reasons about it. It's like every little bit of negativity should be immediatly mocked or dismissed by some excuse..
I think my favorite argument so far is the "but there's women in real life with those proportions! do they embarrass you?" way to miss the point
anyway, im sorry if I turned this into something no one wanted, figured my opinion was valid for discussion since I dont think ive talked much about this ever since like, the reveal
Considering past Vanillaware's ratings, that would not be advisable. That, or you'd have no room to complain if it's rated Teen or up.Mugaaz said:I'd like to be able to play this game with a 8 year old,
I am ashamed because this is what people think I will buy a game for,
Again, I think you're on the right track (dislike due to taste, theme) but you take it too far. Sex, sexuality, anatomy - you're automatically attributing negative connotations that may not be there. You also don't need that to justify why you don't like it.Amen. This is the entirety of my argument. I'm not ashamed of other's seeing me playing this specific game with the sorceress. I am ashamed because this is what people think I will buy a game for, this is what people think is needed to sell me a game, this is what people think gamers as a whole are all about, these over-sexualized character designs are what the world at large and game companies think when creating the next game like this because they think a huge pair of tits will get the mouth-breathers to buy a game. This stuff is obviously untrue. Games like Mario, Dark Souls, Civilization, or Minecraft didn't need to create walking pairs of tits to sell copies.
The Sorceress is not a character, she wasn't drawn that way to represent her character, story, or gameplay. She is literally designed as a walking pair of boobs to sell this game in trailers. This isn't some arugment about hating sexuality or some BS like that. Its about the internal painful groan I feel when watching a commerial for Pop Tarts from a woman in a wet T-shirt. The huge tits are just there to sell games, and nothing else. Thats why I find it insulting and shameful.
I'd like to be able to play this game with a 8 year old, random co-worker, or friends without having to think "I wonder if this is appropriate for their age, temperament, or whether they will find this offensive, etc". I'd rather play Dark Souls with an 8 year old than play this game with them, and it's not because of some stupid sex vs violence thing. Its because the violence in Dark Souls isn't stylized to sell the game. It fits within the internal theme, story, world, and structure. Its not some jarring thing that doesn't fit that's implemented solely to give rise to the basest emotions. Obviously, neither would be appropriate, but hopefully an overtly exaggerated example like that can illustrate a point.
This is why I'm not motivated to participate in this thread. I've provided an article to show that sexualized designs aren't necessarily sexist, yet the false myth that the criticism equals Victorian prudence is still falsely ascribed to my position.
If it's justified in-universe with a valid reason and the character displays agency to the extent that the over-exposed massive breasts and pronounced ass are chosen by the fictional character alone, then I don't think the design isn't sexist. It's still a sexualized design and presentation of it, but it isn't necessarily sexist (just like Bayonetta). I think the
However, do note that this design is coming from the same creator whose female protagonist in Muramasa was only strong when a male evil spirit took control of the body, while Momohime herself was weak and without agency (both as spirit and as in-body).At least to me that seemed pretty offensive in terms of simply just refusing to let the female character display her own agency (despite how ridiculous the whole spirit embodiment principle is)When she finally gets her body back in the end, her choice is to go into celibacy as a monk.
I'd like to be able to play this game with a 8 year old, random co-worker, or friends without having to think "I wonder if this is appropriate for their age, temperament, or whether they will find this offensive, etc". I'd rather play Dark Souls with an 8 year old than play this game with them, and it's not because of some stupid sex vs violence thing. Its because the violence in Dark Souls isn't stylized to sell the game. It fits within the internal theme, story, world, and structure. Its not some jarring thing that doesn't fit that's implemented solely to give rise to the basest emotions. Obviously, neither would be appropriate, but hopefully an overtly exaggerated example like that can illustrate a point.
Maybe I should tell Ayami Kojima to stop drawing renaissance-esque men as well because she's glorifying the male body and reinforcing unfair standards.
Kamitani's designs seem exaggerated to the point of parody in DC, and the Sorceress isn't alone in this. It's a worthwhile issue, one that's been long overdue, but Dragon's Crown seems to me the wrong product to attack . . .