Ragingnight
Member
reporting you all to kotaku you loli lovers.
How can you defend this stuff. Seriously.
How can you defend this stuff. Seriously.
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Dragon's Crown (Vanillaware PS3/PSV) Sorceress Trailer
- Thread starter Takao
- Start date
Theonik
Member
I think it's meant to be a Burqa. Which is actually brings an interesting point in this argument because if anything, in strongly male dominated societies, it seems to be the social pattern that women should suppress their sexuality rather than what people seem to suggest in this thread, the liberation of the right for women to act however they please sexually is also an important aspect of feminism.
Yeah I know, but it doesn't look like that.
Theonik
Member
You can only edit a GIF that much. Sacrifices must be made.
I just wanted to use your post as a jumping position to make that point
cpp_is_king
Member
Can't you just not play the game then? Why does everything have to be some kind of crusade for justice? The design is what it is. Every single character, both male and female, is completely over-exaggerated and over the top. Honestly I don't even know what to say anymore. Modern society has really made people way too easy to get offended.
spandexmonkey
Banned
What is the problem with the sorceress specifically:
That the male counterpart is not equally sexualized? If so, could we hear some examples of what could be done to make things more equal?
Or is it that she's sexualized period? If so, we're back to a matter of taste.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
guys lets just go back to generic atari graphics
ahahahaha oh my god. I can't believe this shit.
"women whose views align with mine have more valuable views"
SolidSnakex
Member
But what's the solution? This is what many of us are trying to figure out and no one wants to flatout say what it is. This argument might move from going in circles if someone could explain what the end goal is. On one hand people are arguing that they don't want censorship, but on the other they throwing around words like misogynist, sexist etc. about designs and commenting that they want developers to think long and hard about the design that they release. And if something is a problem, then doesn't that mean you want it fixed? So what exactly does that mean for a design like the Sorceress?
Custer's Revenge. Dem pixels.
Karsticles
Member
I don't know, imagination is pretty powerful. I had a crush on Celes in FFVI.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
hahaha I knew someone was going to say that. There was beat em and eat em too.... and a female version of that :lol
And they keep wondering why no one takes anything they say seriously.
Hmm I can't remember any of mine, maybe cammy?
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Well, I was attempting however lamely to inject a little humor, especially in light of the recent posts have been making me think of that image. I think the fact that the actual opinions of women have been marginalized in this thread by some of us is a serious symptom of the same bigger issue even if it is tangential to the topic. Of course I understand why someone would care to make the arguments they have, or comment at all in this thread. But you are right, if I no longer have anything worthwhile to contribute I should stop posting. Don't misunderstand my tone, I'm honestly conceding this is a good time to get out of here.
There is no solution, and that's sort of the issue. The only thing we, as a culture, can do going forward is make more universally acceptable characters; better written, better designed, and have more women in the design framework to create characters that appeal to the feminine ideal. But with that being said, no one should have to be forced to abandon a character design because someone may not like it, that's compromising your vision, assuming that making your character look the way they do is part of your original vision, opposed to simply forcing the sexual nature of the character to make her more appealing towards people who aren't interested in the game beyond how many boobs are exposed.
With Vanillaware in particular, their artstyle feels very specific. Even if there's a big of deviency in the original planning of said character, every design they come up with feels tailor made, never generic. They often feel like moving artbooks instead of proper games (which is why the majority of them have mechanics that are so wonky). It's not like games like Tera or Lineage that have half dressed dark elves for the sake of having half dressed dark elves that look the same as every other half dressed dark elf in every other similar game. I don't want Vanillaware to change what they're doing. But that being said, the Sorceress in particular is an easy target to pick on because...well just look at her. I actually find her design to be rather tacky, but I'm not going to sentence this game because I find her, and a few other designs, not to my liking.
Valuable? Are you serious? Come on, pizzaroll, you're supposed to be a better poster than this. This isn't about which opinion is "better" or more "valuable".
I am stating that
(A) some people have a problem with this design. Some people don't like the representation of their gender.
(B) Other people don't have a problem with this design. Other people do like the representation of their gender.
The existence of B does not negate or refute the existence of A. That is what I am pointing out.
And that's the point where they simply don't buy or support the game in any way. It's really the only way those who don't like the art should fight back. I feel like one of the reasons this whole debate is ridiculous is because this is all 2D art. This medium lends itself to all kinds of creative styles and there is never going to be a single artist who pleases everyone. Kamitani likes drawing greatly exaggerated physiques sometimes, which includes massive boobs. Yes, there are going to be dozens of people who roll their eyes at his work, but he is obviously aware of that. He chooses not to do anything about it because it's his vision for how he wants the game to look. He has no desire to satisfy every person, he probably just wants to create something that looks good.
It's definitely important to let artists know that they feel uncomfortable about their work, but I don't think it is ever going to do anything or change anything.
spandexmonkey
Banned
In a game featuring sexuality, what brings equality? Removal of sexuality or equal representation?
michaelius
Banned
And they are free to ignore this game and not buy it. But instead they want to enforce their opinion on others and force autocensorship.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
That's when people of group A don't buy the game if it offends/annoys them and play something else.
I don't like military related things for the most part I'm not going to go tell them to change those because it's not to my liking.
Group A is equally as important as Group B
Everything you are saying points to Group A being better in every way than Group B
Thus no one takes you seriously as long as keep acting that way.
I don't like military related things for the most part I'm not going to go tell them to change those because it's not to my liking.
Group A is equally as important as Group B
Everything you are saying points to Group A being better in every way than Group B
Thus no one takes you seriously as long as keep acting that way.
"better poster" lol.
If you can look back on all your posts in this thread and truly, honestly say that this is all you are saying: you are delusional.
Mithos
Member
But people are advocating that the (A) people have more saying (their opinions are more valuable) in what should exist in the future, since they want the things the (B) people like to not exist because its BAAAAD.
You're articulating the point well, but I would just concede. Most people won't accept this here until they're own personal line for respect/objectification is crossed. And in some cases it would take obtaining a significant other or having children in order for someone to re-examine those boundaries. So most of them may always think that people who have an issue with this are just prudes or drama queens.
Is B's opinion worth as much as A's?
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
A fair comparison
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
It makes my heart warm to see a Vanillaware game get a 40 page thread.
nailbombxx
Member
Alright, so who was the 14 year old who designed Gwynevere from Dark Souls?
I mean, why does she have huge breasts and an exposed mid drift? That is so unnecessary/immature.
I mean, why does she have huge breasts and an exposed mid drift? That is so unnecessary/immature.
satire
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Well, this has certainly crossed some kind of line alright.
I don't think people who don't like the design are prudes.
I think the people who are criticizing this game as sexist, demeaning to women, mysoginistic however are being rather incendiary for a game that does not seem to be part of the problem. I don't think this game deserves such harsh words.
spandexmonkey
Banned
I think it's fun, perhaps she should have been an equally exagerated and beautiful man if the player chose a female avatar?
Missed the edit, missed the satire, props
No one will be happy until every video game is forced to use Monaco's design.
The Red one is a girl by the way.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Dark Souls is Lore based so no
She's supposed to represent peace, beauty, serenity, and safety in an otherwise cruel and unforgiving world. Her presence is juxtaposition to everything else you've seen in the game thus far.
I think I remember reading that the director wanted to change Gwynevere from her final look, but the character designer really liked her, so he let her stay that way.
I think Jason Schreier gave some examples of the problems he had with the design some pages back. The unfortunate side-effect of this discussion is that we also end up policing people's bodies, but that's another topic for another thread.
First of all, people need to chill and stop being personally offended.
1. It's okay to like stuff
2. It's good to recognize it for what it is
3. But it's bad if it's everything everywhere (I'm exaggerating, but you get my point)
Now secondly in terms of what the industry and developers can do in the future (this is mostly aimed at the general industry, not specifically Vanillaware):
1. Be more mindful of what people have to say. Maybe listen to some people who know a thing or two about sensitive issues
2. Recognize the cultural context of the medium you are putting your creation into.
3. Be aware of the history and prior events related to the design you're creating. You may avoid repeating the same mistake that others have already done.
4. Read a book or two about the cultural topic you are touching upon.
The thing is, the sexism issue is so potent these days, because game companies are making insanely stupid creative decisions again and again, and people who aren't aware of the issues deny or negate any criticism of it, while both online and conventions affirm the fears of an exclusionary culture. Thus, a dangerous cocktail is produced when the issue arises again and again, and people become more "enraged" the more these mainstream things continue to be exposed towards the general gaming audience.
I regret reading through most of it. This has been their style for years and asking an artist to change their style because they think it's "offensive" is an insult to the artist. They shouldn't have to conform to society.
cpp_is_king
Member
There will be groups of A's and groups of B's for every game ever. Which is why ultimately there's no problem here, everything is working as intended.
It's fine to have your own opinion. It's not fine to expect anyone else to change their artistic vision because of it or even to care, for that matter.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Solution: Focus Test all your games, make as generic and unoffensive as possible, make millions?
Wait no, that's a really shitty solution.
At this point Lime you are just pushing a subject matter that has nothing to do with the game and slamming anyone who likes the art as oppressive.
Wait no, that's a really shitty solution.
At this point Lime you are just pushing a subject matter that has nothing to do with the game and slamming anyone who likes the art as oppressive.
Not to mention this is super hypocritical
nailbombxx
Member
I hope so. Out of all of their games, this seems like their best effort yet.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Sounds like you're just stating the obvious that different people have different opinions.
Anyway, I've asked you multiple times before in this thread and you've ignored me, but I'll ask once more. Would you please explain in concrete details what exactly you think the larger problem that you constantly allude to is? What exactly is the problem that you are campaigning to fix?
Correct. But it's hard when the people pressing the issue (rightfully pressing it) come off as antagonistic or spiteful when doing so. It's easy to get defensive about stuff like this. "You like this so, and this is bad, thusly you are a bad person" is rarely what people trying to champion change are trying to say, but it IS how it comes across 90% of the time.
Right, but there's also a pretty stark difference between finding issue with the sexual nature of someone's art and calling them a deviant for making it (which is how this specific issue started).
1. Was your original post a reply to ALL my posts? No. You specifically addressed my clarification on SolidsnakeX and Fine Ham Abounds.
2. Was my reply to your post a reference to my statement about how the existence of B doesn't negate A. Yes.
Seriously, I thought you were better than this. I have no idea how you think that it was "all I'm saying throughout this thread."
Delusibeta
Banned
Works for Valve.