See, idk. Im getting confused. Gender dysphoria and transgender people are not just trying to recategorize themselves into a different neat box though, they identify as a different gender than what was assigned at birth. Being male and female is not just human fantasy, and transgender people are not just trying to "be a man" or "be a woman" because they want to wear a dress, or use power tools and have a moustache, or fulfill stereotypical gender roles, its because humans can be born with a sex that mismatches their identity. Thats the issue here. You cant choose gender dysphoria. Not everyone is transgender, its not a choice for literally everyone to make thats just a bunch of societal bullshit. That cheapens the problem people with dysphoria face, and basically implies that transgender people are just trying to fulfill societal norms by the other gender as opposed to literally suffering because of a biological rarity. And it also implies that nonbinary and cisgender are the only true answer and that everyone else is jist conforming to some made up societal fantasy; that everyone really is non binary but just dont know it, which is basically a blow to the transgender cause because they have to fight every day to have people realize its not just a choice and as simple as -wanting- to be a "boy" or "girl". Its not a choice and its out of their control, has nothing to do with societys ideas of what a man or woman is supposed to be or look like. Gender is not fantasy and its not a choice, which is exactly why transgenderism and the like deserve to be taken seriously
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First baby born without a gender in Canada
- Thread starter CoolOff
- Start date
See, idk. Im getting confused. Gender dysphoria and transgender people are not just trying to recategorize themselves into a different neat box though, they identify as a different gender than what was assigned at birth. Being male and female is not just human fantasy, and transgender people are not just trying to "be a man" or "be a woman" because they want to wear a dress, or use power tools and have a moustache, or fulfill stereotypical gender roles, its because humans can be born with a sex that mismatches their identity. Thats the issue here. You cant choose gender dysphoria. Not everyone is transgender, its not a choice for literally everyone to make thats just a bunch of societal bullshit. That cheapens the problem people with dysphoria face, and basically implies that transgender people are just trying to fulfill societal norms by the other gender as opposed to literally suffering because of a biological rarity. And it also implies that nonbinary and cisgender are the only true answer and that everyone else is jist conforming to some made up societal fantasy; that everyone really is non binary but just dont know it, which is basically a blow to the transgender cause because they have to fight every day to have people realize its not just a choice and as simple as -wanting- to be a "boy" or "girl". Its not a choice and its out of their control, has nothing to do with societys ideas of what a man or woman is supposed to be or look like. Gender is not fantasy and its not a choice, which is exactly why transgenderism and the like deserve to be taken seriously
Interframe
Member
Haha not just GAF's mentality, seems to be the shitty mentality of all humanity. Whatever, those people lose out, yall are wasting your life living it so closed-minded to new ideas that challenge your perceptions and beliefs that you only hold onto so dearly, only because you were told to by other close-minded humans to do so.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Can't get sentenced to capital punishment if your name doesn't have capital letters.
I lol'd
You're born either with a penis or vagina, or in some rare cases with both.
Gender doesnt have anything to do with sexual orientation, it is a purely biological thing.
Also, as fucked up as it is, I want to see how that kid will grow up.
Man, what if the kid will reject their parents ideals in the future?
Gender doesnt have anything to do with sexual orientation, it is a purely biological thing.
Also, as fucked up as it is, I want to see how that kid will grow up.
Man, what if the kid will reject their parents ideals in the future?
velociraptor
Junior Member
Wrong. We are a product of our biology.
hobblygobbly
Member
Is it the first case in the world or this different? A handful of countries such as Germany and Australia for a few years now have had a legally recognised unknown or "X" gender, so at birth and on ones identification documents an X can appear instead of M or F, you can legally change to an X at any point in your life too IIRC in Germany.
Edit: From some googling these are all the countries where a third gender has legal status:
Australia
Canada
Germany
India
Nepal
New Zealand
Pakistan
Thailand
United Kingdom
United States (not a federal level apparently but varies by state? I am not sure on U.S laws)
Surely this is not the first case out of all these countries for so many years? Some of these countries like Canada it is very new (2016) but some like Australia it has been around since 2003 and Germany 2013.
Edit: From some googling these are all the countries where a third gender has legal status:
Australia
Canada
Germany
India
Nepal
New Zealand
Pakistan
Thailand
United Kingdom
United States (not a federal level apparently but varies by state? I am not sure on U.S laws)
Surely this is not the first case out of all these countries for so many years? Some of these countries like Canada it is very new (2016) but some like Australia it has been around since 2003 and Germany 2013.
That list is so short, this argument isn't very convincing. All from English speaking countries, too.
Impeccable
Member
Stupid user name aside, stupid series of posts aside... what is your stance on a mother needing chemicals taking them during pregnancy?
We have to ignore for a minute your desire for hot takes about the necessity of maintaining "facial hair".
ClosingADoor
Member
There is not that much to understand though. The parent is confusing sex and gender, which are two different things. They are free to raise their kid however they want, although it is debatable if a kid would really be better off for it. But when a doctor needs to fill in the "sex" after a birth on a form, that has nothing to do with anything of this and the parent is making an issue about it for no reason.
Then we have a lawyer that refuses to spell her name with capital letters and apparently teaches that in a class about oppression, although correct spelling is not really related to oppression.
Plus they would probably fill in their full, legal name on official documents, while the lawyer apparently doesn't do that when filing court documents.
excelsiorlef
Member
Trucks and dolls and preference for blue or pink are not products of biology
Which makes it so weird that "sex" is now marked as "undetermined" on the birth certificate.
Sunster
Member
or 3rd option. a choice parents made for their child that effects no one else.
Spaced Harrier
Member
My company titles itself without capital letters.
It ruins their marketing material.
It ruins their marketing material.
True but what does that have to do with a baby wearing a dress or pink clothes
Royce McCutcheon
Junior Member
Thank Christ we can count on Dumile
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Hook me up with a fat stack of academic journals if you want to talk about the reality or non-reality of gender. All this first year sociology hearsay is boring.
Whilst you are correct, gender constructs aren't totally arbitrary, they have traceable and logical biological and cultural roots. There is some sense to how they've come to exist as they do. There are broadly speaking biological differences between sexes which inform gender constructs, they're just archaic, oppressive and incompatible with a forward-thinking, free society.
QuicheFontaine
Member
It's funny! It's literally a joke in Nathan Barley. An example of something trendy Shoreditch twats might do.
Damn Nathan Barley came out in 2005? That show was ahead of its time + I feel old.
velociraptor
Junior Member
Yes you're right about that - that's society. But is it really that bad if boys wear blue and play with trucks/action man and girls wear pink and play with Barbie?
cromofo
Member
That's true but gender is not exclusively a "social construct" either.
Many different factors play into it, including social norms and biology.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I don't imagine wikipedia is a comprehensive resource of all people ever who have spelled their name in a slightly eccentric manner. Regardless the point was that one of the most famous poets in the English language spelled his name in all lowercase. This isn't some new waters the lawyer is treading.
Unless you're arguing that gender is learned, his statement is still true.
JimCareyGaveMeChlamydia
Banned
Hot takes. Were talking about a baby not some gimmick. Whya re my posts stupid? Because someones appearance should be priority over an unborn child?
Necessary and life saving medication who would be opposed to that?
Did she really need a moustache at the cost of potentially harming her kid?
TissueBox
Member
Is it? I'm no professor but from what I could tell there has been studies dedicated to this very premise over the years, and the results are, well, complicated.
psychowave
Member
Which aspects of gender are determined by biology?
Pink hasn't even been a "girl" color for, like, most of the history of humanity.
Nothing, but what about the boy finding put he hates using dresses and want to use regular boy clothes, biology is telling us he is a boy, based on that we should raise the kid.
Now, when he's grown and decides pretty dresses are for him, go ahead, wear them.
Dwight Schrute
Member
This confuses me. I'm generally a very open and accepting person for many things and identify as fairly liberal on social issues. This, however, just feels wrong? A birth certificate isn't supposed to be a stereotype that one is meant to conform to, it's one of the primary pieces of identification and for historical, science, and census data. Maybe we shouldn't date it, and allow the child to choose their birthdate once they are older? It doesn't make any sense. They can identify as any gender they want, but the data on the birth cert should be strictly biological.
How does something like this impact statistics on % of males/females born? Infant mortality rates by gender? Etc. If everyone is born "U", biology doesn't care. If trends emerge where male infants are dying at a much higher clip at birth, would it go unnoticed and unresearched because we they are all U? Nature don't care.
How does something like this impact statistics on % of males/females born? Infant mortality rates by gender? Etc. If everyone is born "U", biology doesn't care. If trends emerge where male infants are dying at a much higher clip at birth, would it go unnoticed and unresearched because we they are all U? Nature don't care.
MilkyJoe
Member
Fact of the day - Nathan Barley is based on a twat my ex's best mate used to date. "Stupid Fucking Nathan" was what everyone called him behind his back.
As you were.
Impeccable
Member
What are the risks of immediately stopping their dosages? What is the impact on a baby?
PJV3
Member
As long as she isn't waiting to pounce on and sue people who use capital letters by mistake, I'm not bothered.
I don't think it's really clever either, it's just what it is.
Speaking from experience, having everyone around assume your straight absolutely fucks with you growing up. You end up feeling like there's something wrong with you when theres this expectation of who you should be attracted to and you don't meet it. Kids naturally want to meet their parents expectations and impress them, it leads to a lot of gay kids pretending to be someone they're not. Simply changing your language as a parent (like how a lot of people use partner now), or having a conversation with you kid about homosexuality can make a world of difference.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
I don't think people are saying it's bad.
I think the point is, it's not right to assume that boys play with trucks and girls don't.
Society has long made this assumption and nowadays people accept that it's not always black and white
RumblingRosco
Member
I love that you didn't use capitals at all in "fuck off"... It made the entire post even better. I mean, I agree with you.
Sunster
Member
The parent and lawyer argue that a doctor determining a sex assigns a gender as well. I agree BBC should have made the difference clearer but the parent does not seem to be confused on the meaning of gender at all.
cromofo
Member
Behaviour.
Men and women are not some blank slates that get shaped entirely by society. Hormones play a role.
I hope they end up in eternal website form hell, where the site always corrects it to a capital letter. Over and over.
They are attempting to make a legally recognized change to birth certification, not based on the (medically classifiable) biology of the child, but an assumed potential psychological choice (or non-choice) that the child could make, at some indeterminate time in the future.
Just call your kid an emoji
Captain Smoker
Member
Come on son.
Even without your input they are going to get influenced by other people / media / society, so I don't see why I shouldn't take care of my own child.
If I get a boy I'll raise him as a "boy", if it's a girl, I'll raise her as a "girl", if they decide otherwise at any point I don't have a problem either, because that's their decision and not mine. (and I can't change it either, so who cares)
People act like this is going to produce worse humans, I'm fine with the way I was raised and I don't lack tolerance or intelligence. (classic catholic family which would be pretty upset if their grandchildren would be gay or whatever, but that's nothing they can influence.)
gutter_trash
Banned
poor kid, not even day 1 and the parents are already ruining future
psychowave
Member
I was hoping for some concrete examples, with scientific proof if possible.
Mechanized
Member
I laughed out loud. Holy shit.