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[Neoriceisgood]

I don't understand why the "well, they have a name" angle is important. Just because they're united under a name doesn't mean #GGers don't come under many shapes and sizes.

I know this is a weird comparison to make, and no, I'm not saying dumb video game bullshit is even remotely comparable to real-world social justice issues so please for the love of god do not accuse me of comparing them in matter of importance, but what you're saying is comparable, to an extent, to holding reasonable feminists accountable for the actions of radical feminists. "You're uniting under a name, so you're responsible for whatever awful thing other people under that name do". I feel that it's very disingenuous.

Twitter hashtags can be used to direct large groups, it's essentially the equivalent of a makeshift communication platform a la 4chan/8chan/neogaf.

A hashtag can easily be weaponized, this is why it's so easy to voice complaints about "GG" compared to many other groups.

 

[Lalalandia]

http://chainsawsuit.com/comic/2014/10/15/the-perfect-crime/

Kris Straub comic, don't know if it's related to any of this but it seemed very appropriate to all the #NotAllGG BS. Want your complaints to be taken seriously? Walk away from GG.

 

[Oddduck]

I think Team America summed it up pretty well.

Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes: assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is: they fuck too much or fuck when it isn't appropriate - and it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes, pussies can be so full of shit that they become assholes themselves...

Sounds about right.

I know this would never happen, but I kind of wish South Park would do an episode about GamerGate, haha.

I would love to see how Trey Parker and Matt Stone would tackle the topic.

 

[PrivateRyan]

I'm surprised the fact that the GMAs are happening tonight hasn't caused the GG-side to explode with fury yet

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

See my earlier post about the MSNBC post vs. the JonTron one. It's not as simple as "GG vs everyone else" because most people do not care about this stuff. Not even most of the "core gamer" demographic cares. As far as people who do, who are involved more deeply in gaming culture enough to care about stuff like this, it's far close to parity.

There isn't a single debate. That's why I'm saying it's complicated.

This is exactly why it is GG vs. everyone else. Normal people don't place concerns about ethics in video game journalism, resolution, and the other frankly trivial concerns voiced by GG about common decency and respect for others' lives and livelihoods. Your average citizen looks at what's going on and reacts with revulsion and disgust, as they should.

There isn't a single debate, because there is no debate.

 

[Lalalandia]

Sounds about right.

I know this would never happen, but I kind of wish South Park would do an episode about GamerGate, haha.

I would love to see how Trey Parker and Matt Stone would tackle the topic.

Given how often they've gone for the Golden Mean fallacy in their commentary I wish I could say I'm confident they'd actually say something other than 'extremists on both sides are bad m'kay'

 

[Gutsy Frog]

Twitter hashtags can be used to direct large groups, it's essentially the equivalent of a makeshift communication platform a la 4chan/8chan/neogaf.

A hashtag can easily be weaponized, this is why it's so easy to voice complaints about "GG" compared to many other groups.

It's very easy to voice complaints about feminism though. People blame all feminism for radical feminism all the time.

But your comparison to *chans and Neogaf only helps my point. Just because someone posts on 4chan that doesn't mean they should be held responsible for some /b/tards harassing someone, doubly so if they openly voice their disapproval of that edgelord bullshit. GGers have said time and time again that they don't promote death threats and doxxing while the anti-GG crowd (which is not "everyone else" because GamerGate does not matter in the grand scheme of things and most normal people do not care) has celebs like MovieBob justifying death threats and doxxing.

 

[Zabant]

I'm surprised the fact that the GMAs are happening tonight hasn't caused the GG-side to explode with fury yet

The vast majority of people don't know about it as nobody is reporting on it.

 

[Gutsy Frog]

This is exactly why it is GG vs. everyone else. Normal people don't place concerns about ethics in video game journalism, resolution, and the other frankly trivial concerns voiced by GG about common decency and respect for others' lives and livelihoods. Your average citizen looks at what's going on and reacts with revulsion and disgust, as they should.

There isn't a single debate, because there is no debate.

Your average citizen does not care. Do you really think most people give a rat's ass about GamerGate either way? Most people don't even care about 'video game culture'.

 

[GamerJM]

It's very easy to voice complaints about feminism though. People blame all feminism for radical feminism all the time.

But your comparison to *chans and Neogaf only helps my point. Just because someone posts on 4chan that doesn't mean they should be held responsible for some /b/tards harassing someone, doubly so if they openly voice their disapproval of that edgelord bullshit. GGers have said time and time again that they don't promote death threats and doxxing while the anti-GG crowd (which is not "everyone else" because GamerGate does not matter in the grand scheme of things and most normal people do not care) has celebs like MovieBob justifying death threats and doxxing.

I think what you don't understand is that GamerGate literally started from harassment. From the beginning it was about harassing Zoe Quinn. That has never changed. It's always been about harassment. The parts about "ethics in journalism," are muddled and unclear, and the only common complaints I can find are that gaming sites should have a code of ethics (which, uh, a lot of them already have), and that content should be objective and have social justice kept out (which is ludicrous). Other than that, the only thing that's stayed consistent is harassment. And yeah, you can argue that there's more to GamerGate than that but the truth is, that's what the majority of people who support GamerGate talk about.

 

[Lalalandia]

I'm surprised the fact that the GMAs are happening tonight hasn't caused the GG-side to explode with fury yet

What's corrupt about an award ceremony for journalists run by the people who buy advertising coverage in their publications, what's not to like?

It's another nail in the 'it's about ethics' coffin, the GG movement just can't focus on any actual issues beyond 'wimmens have opinionz that disagree with me' for longer than 5 minutes it seems. Oh and the Anthony Burch/BLreSequel stuff is just hilarious I wish there was a way to enjoy that script without all the Borderlands in between.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Your average citizen does not care. Do you really think most people give a rat's ass about GamerGate either way? Most people don't even care about 'video game culture'.

As the idiocy gets more exposure and things like the Utah State threat occur where it crosses over into the public sphere, more and more people will come to know and care

Where do you think they'll fall

 

[Lalalandia]

Your average citizen does not care. Do you really think most people give a rat's ass about GamerGate either way? Most people don't even care about 'video game culture'.

You know what normal people do care about? Death threats and doxxing. You may want to play the false equivalency game but the harm here is clearly falling more on women in video games than any other group, all doxxing is to be condemned. To try and claim 'anti-GG' is a side is simply wrong though, GG is a movement 'anti-GG' is people looking at that movement and going 'Fuck no that's insane and any kernel of good is drowned in the giant turd that surrounds it'

 

[zeldablue]

Your average citizen does not care. Do you really think most people give a rat's ass about GamerGate either way? Most people don't even care about 'video game culture'.

Look. Most of the people on the other side are scared s***less. They're not on twitter talking about it. Because they don't want that at their door. My college has been talking about it, and they are completely repulsed. Some of the best game dev professors are women. And they are completely devastated by this. Our schools are taking extra precaution to stop sexual harassment and marginalization BECAUSE of gamergate's lack of decency towards its fellow man and woman.

I can't tell you enough, how many real world people in the REAL WORLD are being impacted by this terribly. I cannot. express it enough. Or make it real enough...for you to understand how much this hurts us. I cannot, no matter how hard I try, tell you how much it hurts that this happens.

We are silent. We always have been silent. And those who speak, are constantly met with mobs like Gamergate. Not just now, not just recently. But ALL throughout human history. I have been silent.

Most game developers have disengaged and ignored Gamergate. :\

 

[PrivateRyan]

What's corrupt about an award ceremony for journalists run by the people who buy advertising coverage in their publications, what's not to like?

It's another nail in the 'it's about ethics' coffin, the GG movement just can't focus on any actual issues beyond 'wimmens have opinionz that disagree with me' for longer than 5 minutes it seems.

Certainly seems that way.

 

[Corto]

See my earlier post about the MSNBC post vs. the JonTron one. It's not as simple as "GG vs everyone else" because most people do not care about this stuff. Not even most of the "core gamer" demographic cares. As far as people who do, who are involved more deeply in gaming culture enough to care about stuff like this, it's far close to parity.

There isn't a single debate. That's why I'm saying it's complicated.

But it is indeed GG against everyone else (at least everyone else that is following this whole ordeal). Gamergate is a fabrication. It has a very well documented ill origin. It's pretty much established as a hate movement, all the rest is a disguise to its original intent. The fight against corruption in media, the struggle towards a more ethical press was just the withewash excuse to fill in the ranks with impressionable people at best and like minded trolls at worst. And even with the inflated ranks they failed to reach their purported objectives. They even worsen them. Exponentially. Gamer identity is tarnished. Corruption and ethics in video games press isn't achieved actively censoring outlets with differing opinions.

 

[Zabant]

It's another nail in the 'it's about ethics' coffin, the GG movement just can't focus on any actual issues beyond 'wimmens have opinionz that disagree with me'

This is the definition of a strawman argument.

The majority of people following gamergate do not know about the GMA's because, as I said not a few posts above, nobody is reporting on it.

 

[H1PSTER]

Maybe listen to the Idle Thumbs podcast with Anita Sarkeesian, and you'll have enough proof that she avidly plays games just like all of us. Probably more. She talks about Pac Man Battle Royale and Jake Rodkin is completely wrong by calling it Pac Man Vs, which he admitted on the GAF thread . That's just one thing. She constantly tweets about playing recent games and commenting on upcoming games, like any other gamer.

There shouldn't be a meritocracy to being a gamer, but some people need confirmation I guess.

Yeah but "Muh-agenda".

This whole thing needs to stop, as many have said in this thread GG is toxic now... And as I posted on twitter of course there is a need to talk about media ethics but it should have stopped the day someones life was threatened.

I want to be able to Identify as a gamer, not be ashamed of it - I love games, you love games, we all love games and that hashtag is doing a great job of dragging us back down to a stereotype we've just about pulled away from.

 

[Corto]

Your average citizen does not care. Do you really think most people give a rat's ass about GamerGate either way? Most people don't even care about 'video game culture'.

More and more do though. Mainstream media is already picking on this. General tech sites and podcasts are reporting this. Seth Rogen and Patton Oswalt jumped in (bless them both). The size of "everyone else" watching all this agape in disbelief is increasing by the day.

 

[Messofanego]

Here's an analogy that might be relevant.

I'm a muslim. There are "muslims" who go in the name of Islam and terrorise other innocent people. I don't want to align with them. So if they started a twitter hashtag like #muslimgate, and if it somehow morphed into an ulterior motive about wanting to destroy generalisations of muslims (maybe because ironically they started with harassing and attacking others which if avoided wouldn't have led to generalisations!), I'd still not align with the hashtag. Especially if attacks kept on happening in its name (but not in its name name because now that it's public we have to avoid directly linking it even though if you check our twitter feeds, it's pretty damn obvious!). Does it take some deaths for that message to become clear? I really hope not.

 

[thequickandthedead]

What's this about #stopgamergate2014 and ISIS?

 

[Lalalandia]

This is the definition of a strawman argument.

The majority of people following gamergate do not know about the GMA's because, as I said not a few posts above, nobody is reporting on it.

Except that the biggest actual game ethics scandal of the past 5 years was the Rab Florence Eurogamer debacle that rested entirely on the toxicity of the GMAs and the promotions that happen around it. If GG cared about ethics they would you know research the issue rather than pass around the same 5 Guys BS over ad over again. I have no sympathy for a movement or it's followers that alleges it's about 'ethics' but has consistently ignored the actual ethis concerns over the past 2 months.

The YT/SoM branding scandal, the ongoing tendency for mendacious YTers to take money for videos but reveal that below the 'click for more' link, the GMAs none of these actual issues have been pushed by GG, it's all false equivalency and circling around to whining about 'SJWs'. There is no GG except the hate GG, the fellow travellers are just meat shields for the monsters, the sooner they realise this the sooner we can all get back to actual video games.

 

[Corpekata]

What's this about #stopgamergate2014 and ISIS?

People being idiots. Twitter bots in general will promote their cause (or store) with random gibberish and popular hashtags hoping to be seen with the tag by thousands of people (and thus a few dummies will click their ad). The image being passed around also has #PriceofFootball in it but somehow the Gaters won't accuse the NFL of any ISIS associations, I'm sure.

And of course it's being spouted by people like CameraLady and Sargon. People who KNOW they're spouting shit when they say things like that, there's no way they wouldn't know about Twitter ad bots. These are the prominent voices of GG. Always twisting things even when common sense should prevail.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

http://chainsawsuit.com/comic/2014/10/15/the-perfect-crime/

Kris Straub comic, don't know if it's related to any of this but it seemed very appropriate to all the #NotAllGG BS. Want your complaints to be taken seriously? Walk away from GG.

Good to see ChainSawSuit is still on point after all these years.

It sucks about your friend Gutsy Frog (what was his public stance on this whole thing anyhow?), but I don't think MovieBob's a particularly great example to point to as a figurehead everybody opposed to GamerGate is supposedly turning to. The dude has a history of being overly dramatic and abrasive, but I'll take that over Milo, Sommers or Baldwin's opportunist bullshit they're spinning (besides Baldwin who I guess honestly believes what he says) and to paint him as nearly as influential a person as them is disingenuous. Not to mention the things they've said and retweeted far worse than Bob has.

I somewhat agree with the notion there's idiots on both 'sides' using this as a good excuse to pull some really awful shit to actual people and I've said as much earlier in the thread, but I'd say this entire thing has become convoluted and toxic enough where there's no salvaging the movement when it literally started from the Quinnspiracy fiasco. One 'side' has based itself on exposing how somebody 'slept to the top' for a freeware game's non-existent reviews and went on from there while if not actively carrying out than blatantly condoning the harassment of a ton of other writers. It's definitely since been joined by people who from there agree with the 'journalism needs changing' narrative who don't know any better and from their perspective they've done nothing wrong (which is where I agree with attempts to open up a conversation between them is a better alternative to a ton of comparatively harmless but still pointless insults), but that doesn't change its history.

The other 'side' is more or less everybody else pointing out that history and how the entire thing's been fucked and hijacked from the start. Some are worse about how they carry this out than others and may be unintentionally making the problem worse, but I'm not really seeing anything on the level of massacre threats at universities or news stations or conventions over pro-GG stuff being there.

Your tumblr friend was attacked by a complete moron using progressive-ness as a flimsy justification to harass someone and their family, but as shitty as this sounds, smaller events like that don't add up to what's happened on a far larger scale from those opposing GG and showing its negativity.

This is the definition of a strawman argument.

The majority of people following gamergate do not know about the GMA's because, as I said not a few posts above, nobody is reporting on it.

This is why I think the concept of Twitter activism outside of situations where there's literally no alternative is heavily flawed because you're relying on a bizarre game of telephone to get your message out. I don't think poorly of the nature of people who join Gamer Gate purely as a reaction to a history of sub-standard gaming journalism (though I'm no mind-reader so like hell I have any fucking clue who genuinely cares about ethics and who's using this as a cheap out to fling shit at feminism), but I heavily question their ability to do some basic research how this entire thing started and whether that 'thing' was even true in the first place. I honestly agree with that earlier poster who got juniored that it's terrible the really huge gaming sites haven't reported on any of this drama one way or the other. The smaller ones are either already on GG's shit-list from day one (Kotaku and Polygon) or horribly fucked up their attempt (The Escapist).

As tempting as it is to make them out as idiots since you disagree with them so strongly,the constant jokes however true such as 'wimmens have opinionz that disagree with me' is not going to make a GG rethink their position. There's a time for jokes, and in a situation as confusing as this where people who up until now painted gamers as basement-dwelling sub-humans are winning other people who don't know any better to a certain extent simply because they're playing nice to that specific audience, doing the exact opposite is counter-productive.

That sort of reasoning shouldn't apply to specific people so far gone they're already calling for Anita's head on a spike, naturally.

 

[mjp2417]

This is the definition of a strawman argument.

The majority of people following gamergate do not know about the GMA's because, as I said not a few posts above, nobody is reporting on it.

And yet gaters were certainly motivated to ferret out information about Zoe Quinn's sex life despite major gaming media sites not reporting on it. It's almost as though they are actually concerned with one thing but not the other...

 

[Gutsy Frog]

@Zeldablue, the problem is that the pro-GG people getting harassed do not get any media coverage.

I do think the people sending death threats are horrible people and I feel bad for those on the receiving end. I can't stress this enough. It's just, I know enough well-meaning, reasonable, nice people on the GG side who I don't think should be held responsible for what those other shitheads are doing.

@Lalalandia, Corto, Labor, everyone else making similar points: As far as I can tell, there is no way to objectively prove if the #GG hashtag was primarily used for harassment during its first day or not. What's clear is that most of the people using it now are not being abusive.

As for the "GG vs. everyone else" thing: there are likely a lot of people who watched MSNBC and thought "well, I guess #GG are a hate group, that sucks", but are those really people involved deeply with gaming culture? Are they really going to go out of their way to research this stuff and take a stand against it, or will they forget about it in a matter of minutes, maybe an hour?

I understand the point you're making to show that "anti-GG" are not a "group" but I think it's flawed. And even if the active anti-GGers who go out of their way to research this stuff ever outnumbered the neutrals (reminder I'm a neutral ) and pro-GGers (which I don't believe they have), that would be an appeal to majority. It's very possible that at some point during the video game violence controversies that occurred in the 90s and 2000s, the people worried about the dangers of video game violence corrupting our youth outnumbered the defensive "gamer" side.

The prominent E celebs on GG's side don't say they deserve death threats. They just say they were fake, false flags, or the person is being a drama queen.

Which celebrities are you speaking of? I've seen one guy make that claim (and I disagree and think it's really stupid), but he has only 130 followers compared to MovieBob's 14+ thousand.

That said the guy doesn't strike me as malicious and I think he was just being stupid and in denial. I don't support it, but I don't think it's as bad as saying "you fuckers deserve it" either. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'd be better off taking the South Park end-of-episode-speech "screw both sides" stance. I don't know!

Still, anti-GG, as in the ardently anti-GG types and not casual MSNBC watchers, are a group, and I've seen no efforts from people like Jonathan McIntosh to distance themselves from Bob after that statement. Anti-GG are a group and this is a problem.

 

[LiegeWaffle]

By jove, he's cracked it

The most amazing part here is that weev is former GNAA president and he's pro-GamerGate.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I'd advise you to read the thread in its entirety and do some research before claiming that no one is harassing under the tag

There's nothing of value in it at any rate

 

[Gutsy Frog]

I'd advise you to read the thread in its entirety and do some research before claiming that no one is harassing under the tag

I never said this.

 

[Lalalandia]

@Lalalandia, Corto, Labor, everyone else making similar points: As far as I can tell, there is no way to objectively prove if the #GG hashtag was primarily used for harassment during its first day or not. What's clear is that most of the people using it now are not being abusive.

There is a way to know, literally the first use of it was by Adam Baldwin where he linked to the '5 Guys' video about the Zoe Quinn bullshit so it has been about abuse from day 1. The Leigh Alexander article that became a huge focus for the 'casual' GGer wasn't published until a day later. It was always about abuse.

I give in to my frustrations here and more often than I like but frankly it's getting hard to accept at this point that someone can follow GG and not either be wilfully ignorant by ignoring all of the abuse and indulging in false equivalency or actually be quite OK with the abuse aimed at women in gaming.

 

[Corpekata]

@Zeldablue, the problem is that the pro-GG people getting harassed do not get any media coverage.

I do think the people sending death threats are horrible people and I feel bad for those on the receiving end. I can't stress this enough. It's just, I know enough well-meaning, reasonable, nice people on the GG side who I don't think should be held responsible for what those other shitheads are doing.

@Lalalandia, Corto, Labor, everyone else making similar points: As far as I can tell, there is no way to objectively prove if the #GG hashtag was primarily used for harassment during its first day or not. What's clear is that most of the people using it now are not being abusive.

As for the "GG vs. everyone else" thing: there are likely a lot of people who watched MSNBC and thought "well, I guess #GG are a hate group, that sucks", but are those really people involved deeply with gaming culture? Are they really going to go out of their way to research this stuff and take a stand against it, or will they forget about it in a matter of minutes, maybe an hour?

I understand the point you're making to show that "anti-GG" are not a "group" but I think it's flawed. And even if the active anti-GGers who go out of their way to research this stuff ever outnumbered the neutrals (reminder I'm a neutral ) and pro-GGers (which I don't believe they have), that would be an appeal to majority. It's very possible that at some point during the video game violence controversies that occurred in the 90s and 2000s, the people worried about the dangers of video game violence corrupting our youth outnumbered the defensive "gamer" side.



Which celebrities are you speaking of? I've seen one guy make that claim (and I disagree and think it's really stupid), but he has only 130 followers compared to MovieBob's 14+ thousand.

That said the guy doesn't strike me as malicious and I think he was just being stupid and in denial. I don't support it, but I don't think it's as bad as saying "you fuckers deserve it" either. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'd be better off taking the South Park end-of-episode-speech "screw both sides" stance. I don't know!

Still, anti-GG, as in the ardently anti-GG types and not casual MSNBC watchers, are a group, and I've seen no efforts from people like Jonathan McIntosh to distance themselves from Bob after that statement. Anti-GG are a group and this is a problem.

Take your pick. Sargon and MundaneMatt both have 10 minute long VIDEOS dedicated to how Brianna Wu faked her death threats, and that's just the top of my head. Milo belittles them pretty much every day. The Sarkeesian Effect guys (who are currently getting like 9k a month on Patreon for their documentary) have openly accused Sarkeesian of faking her threats and defrauding the FBI and IRS. Or hell, Adam Baldwin, probably the most famous face. It's a widely held belief. Aside from Totalbiscuit and Boogie, I can't think of prominent GGers that HAVEN'T accused someone of it. Maybe Daniel Vavra and Brad Wardell too, who have said some dumb stuff but not that dumb.

 

[Corto]

It's pretty well documented that gamergate was created specifically to shame and harass Zoe Quinn.

 

[zeldablue]

@Zeldablue, the problem is that the pro-GG people getting harassed do not get any media coverage.

I do think the people sending death threats are horrible people and I feel bad for those on the receiving end. I can't stress this enough. It's just, I know enough well-meaning, reasonable, nice people on the GG side who I don't think should be held responsible for what those other shitheads are doing.

I am informed, because I've been watching and reading through GG as well. The idea that GG represents gamers is wrong to me. Because they've been targeting gamers, game journalists, game developers, and game researchers for over two months. Why would anyone go after people like that? Even brilliant designers from our favorite games? If Gamergate stands to stop the bad image of gamers, then it needs to turn in on itself and do more about the screwed up energy it has fostered. GG has been terrible to people it has labeled as outsiders (throwing anyone and everyone under the bus) and that mentality needs to die down along any perception of bad faith. That all needs to go in the toilet.

I hope that you continue to show what the harassment looks like on the other end because it is important that people see what it looks like. So keep doing it. I don't think things work by staying silent. I'm hear to listen, but I often don't agree with what GG is after. Whether it's keeping silent about harassment, ignorance towards sexism, objective game journalism, or social critique. I don't agree with any of that.

I stand with you as someone who is empathetic towards the silencing and censorship that has happened to the other side. But aside from that, I have a hard time feeling anything but some mix of sickness and terror when I think of Gamergate.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

@Lalalandia, Corto, Labor, everyone else making similar points: As far as I can tell, there is no way to objectively prove if the #GG hashtag was primarily used for harassment during its first day or not. What's clear is that most of the people using it now are not being abusive.

It was literally created by Adam Baldwin in response to one of those really early Zoe Quinn videos. Even if it didn't pick up steam until around Alexander's 'Gamer' article, I don't think it's that subjective to say it started from harassment.

Whether the people using it now are being abusive or not on the other hand is subjective, but sure I can buy that many people, probably even the majority literally just view it as the consumer movement it's being marketed as. Hell, part of what works for it are the constant 'man-children getting angry at woman taking their games away!' jokes that wind up hitting people who don't appreciate getting lumped in with that mindset, or are women/minorities themselves who feel gaming journalism can be a bit of a joke at times. I agree that painting people with broad strokes rarely helps anything.

The hashtag is still giving a ton of actively awful people, most who in every other situation have actively debated against their new gamer supporters, a large platform from which they can bring their own politics (despite part of the point behind GG being it's against the politicization of games) to fling shit from. Not to mention the terrorism threats coming from sources GG still actively endorses, which are getting more attention than things happening by 'anti-GG' since they're so much bigger in scale and intent and sadly, any of those legitimately attacked for being a gater are probably getting ignored by those who have gotten attacked by those siding with GG. It's a stupid cycle where ultimately the GG hashtag feels far more at fault than those opposing it.

I can see how people against GG at times have unintentionally fanned the flames at points such as the 'Gamers Are Dead article' (did nobody any favors IMO), though I can't blame writers like Alexander reacting so strongly to somebody innocent have their life systematically ruined for the entire world to see.

 

[dumbo]

One 'side' has based itself on exposing how somebody 'slept to the top' for a freeware game's non-existent reviews and went on from there while if not actively carrying out than blatantly condoning the harassment of a ton of other writers.

AFAIR the "GG" tag relates back to the articles in OP, and what was seen as (and reasonably, is) an attack on the "gamers".

There's a lot of stuff that precedes GG, and (reasonably) lead to it... obviously the Zoe Quinn affair... but also the dragon-age writer harassment, doritogate, journalist income/redundancies, youtube etc.

But the real spark for GG came from those poorly judged/worded articles.

 

[Lowlander2]

My presence in this thread seems only to be to draw attention to relatively minor ires up against...well, the likes of universities being threatened by mere appearances by inoffensive social figures. Nevertheless, this one really gets my goat, and once again, it's that most everyone put off by Kotaku's recent actions are flat wrong.

For context, Kotaku posted a pretty typical news piece of the university being sent a violent threat if Anita Sarkeesian were to host a talk there, and at the end of this piece is the line "There is no mention of Gamergate in this guy's threat."

Now, frankly my lecturers would have been hard-pressed to think of a reason to include mention of GamerGate at all when it cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's relevant to the context of the news story; otherwise, it's just wasting valuable space. But I understand that asking whether GamerGate was tangibly involved in this would have been a question asked by the public at large reading this, so I think it was a smart move including. But apparently, that's not enough.

I have never used underlines for annoying punctuation and purpose before, but here goes: This does not mean Kotaku is giving GamerGate absolution or carte blanche. Kotaku likely included that line to satisfy everyone's curiosity given recent events, but objectively speaking, the report is true. The person who threatened a university with violence if Sarkeesian were to speak there did not mention GamerGate. And that's all it means. If you had wanted to incriminate GamerGate in this story, you would need to show beyond a reasonable doubt or beyond a shadow of a doubt that the two could be connected, but if not, you highly risk misleading your audience, which carries a lot of risks, the likes of which I pray don't need explaining.

A journalism graduate watching other journalism and media critics play at journalism the way they would a round of Smash Bros is enough to make them lament for the likes of that MundaneMatt video, to make an agender person think maybe he has a few good ideas.

 

[Gutsy Frog]

There is a way to know, literally the first use of it was by Adam Baldwin where he linked to the '5 Guys' video about the Zoe Quinn bullshit so it has been about abuse from day 1. The Leigh Alexander article that became a huge focus for the 'casual' GGer wasn't published until a day later. It was always about abuse.

I give in to my frustrations here and more often than I like but frankly it's getting hard to accept at this point that someone can follow GG and not either be wilfully ignorant by ignoring all of the abuse and indulging in false equivalency or actually be quite OK with the abuse aimed at women in gaming.

That's the thing: I don't like Adam Baldwin and I don't like Internet Aristocrat either. But I don't think Jim's videos on GG qualify as "harassment" either. In fact, he drew attention to the Ouren story: Zoe's friends shouting down a dude who accused Zoe Quinn of sexually harassing him and making him apologize to his alleged harasser. No discussion, nothing, just outward shaming.

Before taking the stance of "Zoe's boyfriend was a scumbag harasser for making that post to begin with, and anyone publicizing that story is by proxy a harasser" I urge you to read this post. http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s6j3sh It is not from a pro-gamergater, it is not from an "anti-SJW". It's from the hyper-liberal person who caused a stir by asking for trigger warnings in classic literature. And there is actually legit realtalk in there.

Take your pick. Sargon and MundaneMatt both have 10 minute long VIDEOS dedicated to how Brianna Wu faked her death threats, and that's just the top of my head. Milo belittles them pretty much every day. The Sarkeesian Effect guys (who are currently getting like 9k a month on Patreon for their documentary) have openly accused Sarkeesian of faking her threats and defrauding the FBI and IRS. It's a widely held belief. Aside from Totalbiscuit and Boogie, I can't think of prominent GGers that HAVEN'T accused someone of it. Maybe Daniel Vavra and Brad Wardell too.

I don't like Milo and Sargon either. I don't know enough about MundaneMatt to judge him.

I don't think comments like this...

I see Brianna Wu has now entirely dropped the pretence of wanting peace and has returned to trolling. Colour me shocked.

...equate to "you faked your death threats" though. A lot of Wu's comments and actions have definitely come across as very trollish. She did call a woman actually suffering from autism an "aspie" for disagreeing with her.

I'm going to watch the Sargon and MundaneMatt videos to see what I think of them. If I come to the conclusion that they are bullshit, you can be 100% sure that I will call them out and inform all of my friends who care about this stuff.

 

[zeldablue]

.

Anita said there were several threats from the same university. One of the threats mentioned being a part of Gamergate.

=/ Not the super scary one though...I guess?

 

[Corpekata]

That's the thing: I don't like Adam Baldwin and I don't like Internet Aristocrat either. But I don't think Jim's videos on GG qualify as "harassment" either. In fact, he drew attention to the Ouren story: Zoe's friends shouting down a dude who accused Zoe Quinn of sexually harassing him and making him apologize to his alleged harasser. No discussion, nothing, just outward shaming.

Before taking the stance of "Zoe's boyfriend was a scumbag harasser for making that post to begin with, and anyone publicizing that story is by proxy a harasser" I urge you to read this post. http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s6j3sh It is not from a pro-gamergater, it is not from an "anti-SJW". It's from the hyper-liberal person who caused a stir by asking for trigger warnings in classic literature. And there is actually legit realtalk in there.



I don't like Milo and Sargon either. I don't know enough about MundaneMatt to judge him.

I don't think comments like this...


...equate to "you faked your death threats" though. A lot of Wu's comments and actions have definitely come across as very trollish. She did call a woman actually suffering from autism an "aspie" for disagreeing with her.

I'm going to watch the Sargon and MundaneMatt videos to see what I think of them. If I come to the conclusion that they are bullshit, you can be 100% sure that I will call them out and inform all of my friends who care about this stuff.

Strange tweet to pick from Milo given he has dozens of examples of shitty behavior. Like "I love how @femfreq is getting jealous of @Spacekatgal's moment in the spotlight, and has doubled down on her own threat tweets. #GamerGate"

My initial comment was about how all of these guys belittle this stuff, not just call it fake.

 

[Lowlander2]

Anita said there were several threats from the same university. One of the threats mentioned being a part of Gamergate.

=/ Not the super scary one though...I guess?

Even so, this paints a better picture of the event's connections to GamerGate if she received several threats, and several of those several mentioned it. That information is worth including in a news story.

But no, it was not mentioned in the marquee threat that made her cancel her appearance. So unless you (and by that I mean anyone reporting on this story, not the person I'm replying to) could make feasible ties between this threat that caused Sarkeesian to cancel her appearance and all of these others ones she received, the point stands.

 

[Gutsy Frog]

Strange tweet to pick from Milo given he has dozens of examples of shitty behavior. Like "I love how @femfreq is getting jealous of @Spacekatgal's moment in the spotlight, and has doubled down on her own threat tweets. #GamerGate"

My initial comment was about how all of these guys belittle this stuff, not just call it fake.

I don't follow Milo because I don't like him, I mostly just stick to guys like Instig8ivejournalism who actually seem like good people to me.

I'm going to do a bunch of research and see what arguments people used to claim the threads were faked before commenting further. But if I do come to the conclusion they are full of shit then I'll admit that GG have a massive problem with deflecting blame through denial. I'll still view active anti-GGers as a problematic group though (and it still is a group).

 

[Lalalandia]

That's the thing: I don't like Adam Baldwin and I don't like Internet Aristocrat either. But I don't think Jim's videos on GG qualify as "harassment" either. In fact, he drew attention to the Ouren story: Zoe's friends shouting down a dude who accused Zoe Quinn of sexually harassing him and making him apologize to his alleged harasser. No discussion, nothing, just outward shaming.

Before taking the stance of "Zoe's boyfriend was a scumbag harasser for making that post to begin with, and anyone publicizing that story is by proxy a harasser" I urge you to read this post. http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s6j3sh It is not from a pro-gamergater, it is not from an "anti-SJW". It's from the hyper-liberal person who caused a stir by asking for trigger warnings in classic literature. And there is actually legit realtalk in there.

They do qualify as harassment, in fact they are good candidates for a study on how online harassment starts and gains traction. The ZQ story is one of a personal relationship gone bad and one persons dealing with that by dumping a whole load of questionable claims on a site he knew would result in widespread attacks on the other. He then conspired with those he knew were behind previous attacks on ZQ that he had previously supported her through at the time.

I am not going to analyse someone's personal life on the pretext of caring about 'gaming' and that twitlonger you posted was a shameful and long winded ad hominem attack on ZQ. It dresses itself up as concern for the SJ community but is really a slut shaming exercise written by someone who can't separate their personal bad relationship experiences from actual issues.

Eron Gjoni may or may not be an abuse survivor but he has most certainly through his actions enabled and encouraged the most serious abuse campaign we have seen in this gaming community in years.

Edit: Note this slimy line about "Now, a total of five people and organizations have come out verifying pieces and angles of Eron's story." The 'five' are not identified so the reader cannot check whether the claims are true or not we are asked instead to trust the author. Several of the 'corroborating' claims about ZQ have already been debunked or been admitted to be lies (looking at you TFYC). It continues by saying that they corroborate 'pieces and angles' of his story, what the hell does that mean? Does Eron confirming she is female mean his story has had 'piece and angles' verified? Really shitty opinion piece.

 

[Gutsy Frog]

They do qualify as harassment, in fact they are good candidates for a study on how online harassment starts and gains traction. The ZQ story is one of a personal relationship gone bad and one persons dealing with that by dumping a whole load of questionable claims on a site he knew would result in widespread attacks on the other. He then conspired with those he knew were behind previous attacks on ZQ that he had previously supported her through at the time.

I am not going to analyse someone's personal life on the pretext of caring about 'gaming'
and that twitlonger you posted was a shameful and long winded ad hominem attack on ZQ. It dresses itself up as concern for the SJ community but is really a slut shaming exercise written by someone who can't separate their personal bad relationship experiences from actual issues.

Eron Gjoni may or may not be an abuse survivor but he has most certainly through his actions enabled and encouraged the most serious abuse campaign we have seen in this gaming community in years.

It's not just him. BroTeamPill, who thinks GG is stupid as shit, also had a meltdown about ZQ on Twitter, saying that he asked multiple industry friends and that many of them have abuse stories related to Quinn. We're not talking about some random /v/ celeb but a dude who's friends with Anthony Burch.

When many have stories of sexual and emotional abuse from an industry person, are they not allowed to bring it to light?

 

[RubberJohnny]

It's not just him. BroTeamPill, who thinks GG is stupid as shit, also had a meltdown about ZQ on Twitter, saying that he asked multiple industry friends and that many of them have abuse stories related to Quinn. We're not talking about some random /v/ celeb but a dude who's friends with Anthony Burch.

When many have stories of sexual and emotional abuse from an industry person, are they not allowed to bring it to light?

You're probably not allowed to make death and rape threats that force someone to be ejected from their home without evidence, no. Internet vigilantism is terrible, doesn't work and is terrible.

Look, you think there's some bad shit out there, fine, but everything you're posting is far, far less severe than threats to commit a mass school shooting and numerous death threats.

 

[Gutsy Frog]

You're probably not allowed to make death and rape threats that force someone to be ejected from their home without evidence, no.

Look, you think there's some bad shit out there, fine, but everything you're posting is far, far less severe than threats to commit a mass school shooting and numerous death threats.

I'd say actual abuse that really happened is more severe than a fake threat. I'm not saying the fake threats are not also severe, but...

 

[zeldablue]

Even so, this paints a better picture of the event's connections to GamerGate if she received several threats, and several of those several mentioned it. That information is worth including in a news story.

But no, it was not mentioned in the marquee threat that made her cancel her appearance. So unless you (and by that I mean anyone reporting on this story, not the person I'm replying to) could make feasible ties between this threat that caused Sarkeesian to cancel her appearance and all of these others ones she received, the point stands.

Is it fair to say the hubbub has caused an increase in tension that would generally lead to more misdirected hatred?

Even if GG had nothing to do with this, just the sudden increase in awareness of evil SJWs or evil gamers is going to make this kind of abuse spike on both sides. This is a powder keg blowing up after months and years of tension and smaller outbursts.

Whether you call it GG or not, it is definitely related to current events, and similar though processes. The good news is MundaneMatt didn't say she did it to herself. I feel like that's a huge step to almost seeing what is going on.

I'd say actual abuse that really happened is more severe than a fake threat. I'm not saying the fake threats are not also severe, but...

This is not how you face a sexual abuser. You go to a professional who can help you and see where to go from there. You do not go to the part of the internet that already hates Zoe.

 

[Intheflorsh]

I resent the idea that since I don't support #gamergate I've "picked a side". It's like calling atheism a religion. I'm simply reacting to a group, not joining one.

 

[Corpekata]

It's not just him. BroTeamPill, who thinks GG is stupid as shit, also had a meltdown about ZQ on Twitter, saying that he asked multiple industry friends and that many of them have abuse stories related to Quinn. We're not talking about some random /v/ celeb but a dude who's friends with Anthony Burch.

When many have stories of sexual and emotional abuse from an industry person, are they not allowed to bring it to light?

Got a source for this? Can't find any mentions of stories, just the usual "whore" jokes.

Edit: NVM, was looking at older stuff, it's just a couple days ago. I don't think he mentions abuse stories as much her being a shitty person though.

 

[shink]

When Brianna said to Adam, do you think this is a game, I seriously think there is a group of people that think this is all fun and games with the threats, the trolling etc.

I think people have become so detached from humanity through fighting and picking sides and just seeing it as these faceless fronts. They forget actual human beings are involved and are the losers in all of this.

 

[Gutsy Frog]

When Brianna said to Adam, do you think this is a game, I seriously think there is a group of people that think this is all fun and games with the threats, the trolling etc.

I think people have become so detached from humanity through fighting and picking sides and just seeing it as these faceless fronts. They forget actual human beings are involved and are the losers in all of this.

Check his Twitter. Scroll down. Read from "I have talked to people who are afraid to come forward..." onwards