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[NoblesseOblige]

Mozilla is hosting an opinion piece by a pro-GG individual responding to the recent one by Audrey Watter dealing with GamerGater in Ed-tech. Gators are of course doing a complete 180 on their opinion of Mozilla.

Link is here: https://openstandard.mozilla.org/yes-gamergate-is-everyones-issue/

 

[Cyrano]

Mozilla is hosting an opinion piece by a pro-GG individual responding to the recent one by Audrey Watter dealing with GamerGater in Ed-tech. Gators are of course doing a complete 180 on their opinion of Mozilla.

Link is here: https://openstandard.mozilla.org/yes-gamergate-is-everyones-issue/

Online harassment is not only something that is not purely targeted towards women, but also something which not only surrounds GamerGate.

Wow. So the conclusion is a bald fallacy?

 

[Lime]

I think this gif from that CNN interview on the filmed street harassment perfectly captures my perception of Gamergate (and most discussions on diversity issues in video games):

 

[Corpekata]

Seems like a bit of a waste of your platform to basically just say "it happens to GG too."

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I'm weirdly shocked by David Pakman's "role" in this. Probably not the person I would've thought would end up essentially being GG's media voicebox.


Then again, GG's exploiting the hell out of his format.

 

[partyphone]

Mozilla is hosting an opinion piece by a pro-GG individual responding to the recent one by Audrey Watter dealing with GamerGater in Ed-tech. Gators are of course doing a complete 180 on their opinion of Mozilla.

Link is here: https://openstandard.mozilla.org/yes-gamergate-is-everyones-issue/

what a horrible pile of dreck that ignores the real issues of gamergate.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Wow. So the conclusion is a bald fallacy?

I honestly don't know what her conclusion is. Seems to be something along the lines "GG men get harassed too, so we're not the bad guys here!" Humorously a prompt about game journalistic ethics doesn't really show up at all in the piece. Imagine that.

 

[Lalalandia]

I'm weirdly shocked by David Pakman's "role" in this. Probably not the person I would've thought would end up essentially being GG's media voicebox.


Then again, GG's exploiting the hell out of his format.

I can't believe they're exploiting him, he chose to insert himself into this, he chose to frame it as a 'two sides' debate and he chose to be obnoxious when people outside of GG refused to play along. It seems he just can't resist a narrative that reinforces his own distrust of 'MSM' no matter how false that narrative is.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I can't believe they're exploiting him, he chose to insert himself into this, he chose to frame it as a 'two sides' debate and he chose to be obnoxious when people outside of GG refused to play along. It seems he just can't resist a narrative that reinforces his own distrust of 'MSM' no matter how false that narrative is.

What fascinates me is that his portrayal of GG is praised so widely when it's essentially:

"take random anti-GGer"

"Ask them tons of loaded questions based on dirt GG dug up and spammed him with."


Not too shocked that GG's "favorite media portrayal" always comes down to grilling of "Sjws".

Spoiler

Because that's right in line with the goal of GG.

 

[Mael]

Mozilla is hosting an opinion piece by a pro-GG individual responding to the recent one by Audrey Watter dealing with GamerGater in Ed-tech. Gators are of course doing a complete 180 on their opinion of Mozilla.

Link is here: https://openstandard.mozilla.org/yes-gamergate-is-everyones-issue/

And now I want the 2 mins I spent reading that back.
It's basically saying "GG got harassed too and people were throwing stones at each others before GG too".
It's full of unsubstantiated claims and false truths.
It's the poster boy of bad articles.
In a way it's worse than the dreck TB passed off as his "opinion".

 

[Cyrano]

I honestly don't know what her conclusion is. Seems to be something along the lines "GG men get harassed too, so we're not the bad guys here!" Humorously a prompt about game journalistic ethics doesn't really show up at all in the piece. Imagine that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization

 

[Galactic Fork]

Haha I think everyone is unable to look past the word "dead".

"Stop saying I'm dead, I'm right here!"

But "dead" was never there. They can't look past a word that wasn't in the article. That's pretty awesome. I'm gonna start using that trick. And frankly, I take offense at you calling me an asshole. I have decided to never look past your insult.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Is that a dead gamers in your pants, or are you just happy to see me?

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

There appears to be some overlap between the pcmasterace crowd that are into TB and #GG as well.

Of course there would be overlap between a group that adopted a concept of Nazi ideology as part of its identity and GG. And no, that's not saying self-proclaimed members of the 'pcmasterrace' are literal Nazis. Just that it's a bit insensitive and unsympathetic to adopt such terminology into an identity.

Don't do this.

 

[vcc]

Don't do this.

Point out stuff?

 

[Ayt]

I'm weirdly shocked by David Pakman's "role" in this. Probably not the person I would've thought would end up essentially being GG's media voicebox.


Then again, GG's exploiting the hell out of his format.

That tweet from him about his interview with Arthur Chu was awful.

I also would like to see Arthur step away from twitter for a day or two.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Point out stuff?

Fling unsubstantiated mud at large groups.

Point of fact: more women play PC games than play console games.

 

[vcc]

Fling unsubstantiated mud at large groups.

Point of fact: more women play PC games than play console games.

On my part it's more an observation that the people I've checked from #GG who were actually gamers tended to post on /r/pcgaming or /r/pcmasterrace. Most of the rest were MRA, tRP, or KiA wonks and not gamers. This was when they all brigaded into /r/games. It's telling the majority didn't post to gaming subs.

Edit: That would more imply that #GG who game, game on PC's; than that PCmasterrace would be #GG.

 

[Corpekata]

Fling unsubstantiated mud at large groups.

Point of fact: more women play PC games than play console games.

PCmasterrace people do not equal the average PC gamer.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

That tweet from him about his interview with Arthur Chu was awful.

I also would like to see Arthur step away from twitter for a day or two.

All his tweets about anti-GGers have been like that, and then he pretends like he has no idea why people are upset.

 

[tonysidaway]

I love this part of Tbiscuit's little quirp.

"that people" a.k.a "me" believe it.

I'd no idea who TotalBiscuit was. In the past couple of months I've learned that he's somebody whose research skills are lacking, who has put himself into the dangerous position of expounding a poisonously false narrative. On top of that he seems to be inhumanly callous about the harm caused by this horrible fake controversy. I've just realised that in setting these words down I have described a typical Gamergate follower.

 

[deltatheta]

Fling unsubstantiated mud at large groups.

Point of fact: more women play PC games than play console games.

I don't think they were talking about PC gamers, they were talking about people who embraced the "PC master race" meme.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I'd no idea who TotalBiscuit was. In the past couple of months I've learned that he's somebody whose research skills are lacking, who has put himself into the dangerous position of expounding a poisonously false narrative. On top of that he seems to be inhumanly callous about the harm caused by this horrible fake controversy. I've just realised that in setting these words down I have described a typical Gamergate follower.

I've followed him for a while, he was on my tentative "he's gonna screw up some day"-list though.

I wish I could pinpoint what made me think that, I was completely right but don't quite now what first made me suspicious.

 

[vcc]

I'd no idea who TotalBiscuit was. In the past couple of months I've learned that he's somebody whose research skills are lacking, who has put himself into the dangerous position of expounding a poisonously false narrative. On top of that he seems to be inhumanly callous about the harm caused by this horrible fake controversy. I've just realised that in setting these words down I have described a typical Gamergate follower.

He's a Starcraft colour caster who branched out and made a career in PC game 'news and 'reviews'. He's always had a arms length outlook from the industry and tries to have a professional relationship with his fans and the industry. He does back himself into corners with strong opinions and that's a problem he's had from the start.

Of all the sort of #GG associated people he's probably the least insidious. The worst I can say is he's being pragmatic because his fanbase leans #GG. He doesn't repeat the nonsense that comes out of #GG that much but #GG adores him because he also isn't openly critical of them.

 

[Noaloha]

After 10+ articles were released in the course of one day, claiming "gamers are dead" and using hurtful and incendiary language to condemn the identity of many innocent people, #Gamergate exploded, after the term was coined by actor Adam Baldwin. It was a consumer backlash against anti-consumer articles. Many people felt angry and alienated by them and in my opinion rightfully so.

Alright he's flat out being intentionally misleading here. There was literally one article that used the term dead. Of the ten most of them were either referencing or reaction pieces, some with little additional content other than just pointing out. The term was coined by Baldwin the day before those articles, many of which were themselves in reaction to the harassment. Again it's not anti-consumer to point out that there's a diverse group of consumers outside of the most catered to portion. Asking for better representation of the entire consumer base if fundamentally pro-consumer.

Additionally, I'd like to see TB actually link to these 10+ articles released within 24 hours. I think he'd struggle.

 

[Corpekata]

I think the number of times they talk about it increases a little. In December it'll be 20 within an hour.

 

[vcc]

Additionally, I'd like to see TB actually link to these 10+ articles released within 24 hours. I think he'd struggle.

#GG talks about that stuff in vacuum. As if the articles came out for no reason as opposed to as a reaction to the brigading and spam campaign proto-GG was doing to 'convince' game news to repeat their accusations about zoey quinn.

 

[Alcoremortis]

I'm weirdly shocked by David Pakman's "role" in this. Probably not the person I would've thought would end up essentially being GG's media voicebox.


Then again, GG's exploiting the hell out of his format.

I dunno. I was listening to one of his early shows, interviewing some GGer (I don't really keep track), while I was doing an experiment and one of my co-workers walked in, listened for a moment and then wanted to know everything about why a radio host was interviewing an insane person.

I really think that he's hurting GG more than helping them, just by giving them a platform to show off how insane their logic is.

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

I think the number of times they talk about it increases a little. In December it'll be 20 within an hour.

By this time next year, the #GG story will be that Leigh Alexander body slammed the 1200 lbs. Gabe Newell, killing him instantly, at the Pontiac Silverdome in New Orleans, Louisiana, in front of a horde of 300,000 SJW "journalists" who all immediately reported that "fat neckbeard straight cis white male nerd gamer scum are dead and we killed them all muahahahaha" to literally every news outlet in existence,

Spoiler

brother

.

 

[pantsonhead]

I've followed him for a while, he was on my tentative "he's gonna screw up some day"-list though.

I wish I could pinpoint what made me think that, I was completely right but don't quite now what first made me suspicious.

I've always thought he was kind of a jerk honestly, he just came off that way to me in a lot of his video's.

 

[tonysidaway]

[Total Biscuit wrote:]

After 10+ articles were released in the course of one day, claiming "gamers are dead" and using hurtful and incendiary language to condemn the identity of many innocent people, #Gamergate exploded, after the term was coined by actor Adam Baldwin. It was a consumer backlash against anti-consumer articles. Many people felt angry and alienated by them and in my opinion rightfully so.

We know that's a false narrative, but just suppose this had happened as described. At that point two women had left their homes in mortal terror, a jet carrying Sony executives had been grounded by a fake bomb threat, and a gaming website has been DDOSed. All these facts are in Leigh Alexander's piece, though it might as well have been written on the inside of a clam shell in invisible ink as far as TotalBiscuit is concerned.

So an accurate picture of an utterly repulsive community is drawn here, and one that barely deserves the name "community". And how did that community react? I honestly thought after reading that article: yes, after two years of chaos and violence perhaps we'll get some introspection now that game journalists are finally discussing the community's problems openly.

You know the rest. A small but noisy part of the community, including people like TotalBiscuit, reacted to the challenge not by discussing the real issues of extreme and lawless violence within the community. Instead they set out to kill the messenger.

What disgusting behaviour.

 

[MotherFan]

By this time next year, the #GG story will be that Leigh Alexander body slammed the 1200 lbs. Gabe Newell, killing him instantly, at the Pontiac Silverdome in New Orleans, Louisiana, in front of a horde of 300,000 SJW "journalists" who all immediately reported that "fat neckbeard straight cis white male nerd gamer scum are dead and we killed them all muahahahaha" to literally every news outlet in existence,

Spoiler

brother

.

Half Life 3 deconfirmed?

 

[Nymphae]

Additionally, I'd like to see TB actually link to these 10+ articles released within 24 hours. I think he'd struggle.

I found this on KIA the other day, is this not what he's referring to? They don't all say "gamers are dead" in those exact words, but the that is certainly interesting that all those went up on the same day.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Jesus Christ TB. He's going full-on crazy. The lack of empathy is just astounding.
You don't just whitewash rape and death threats as a bit of trolling while claiming that the real issue is that someone's brother worked on the audio development of a game they reviewed.

One other point about, "Death of the Author".

YES, it is legit to consider alternative readings of a text that are not the intent of the author.
NO, you cannot do this while simultaneously claiming that the author "wants the [literal] death of gamers".
If you want to ignore the author, then... well, you have to ignore the author.

You can criticise Alexander for using hurtful stereotypes as part of her argument. That's about as far as it goes.
I disliked Alexander's article because I thought it used a hateful and narrow definition of 'gamer'. I thought that the term 'gamer' had long ago expanded to become more inclusive and to dismiss gaming culture as being about outdated stereotypes was wrong. Semantically, I though the narrative should be "we're all gamers now" rather than "gamers are not important".
I mean, I liked the intent of her article but I thought that her gamer' stereotype was a straw man that didn't exist.
Then fucking GG happened and I realised that the gaming community hadn't moved on anywhere near as much as I thought. The straw man was actually made of flesh, blood and way too much bile.
It was as if gamers decided that they could prove they weren't culture-less internet shit-slingers by hurling shit at cultural critics on the internet.

That was a sobering, shitty revelation for me as well. Similarly my main critique of the Tropes videos was that they were too simple. Then the reaction to those showed that even that level of discourse was too much for people.

Also, how is it that death threats against Anita are alleged, but the ramblings of a jilted Ex are the God's honest truth?

I found this on KIA the other day, is this not what he's referring to? They don't all say "gamers are dead" in those exact words, but the that is certainly interesting that all those went up on the same day.

It's called a News Cycle. It's not that interesting.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I dunno. I was listening to one of his early shows, interviewing some GGer (I don't really keep track), while I was doing an experiment and one of my co-workers walked in, listened for a moment and then wanted to know everything about why a radio host was interviewing an insane person.

I really think that he's hurting GG more than helping them, just by giving them a platform to show off how insane their logic is.

Oh I agree, the GGers don't look particularly good in their videos. But I've lost a ton of respect for the dude due to how he's acted through this stuff himself.

I've always thought he was kind of a jerk honestly, he just came off that way to me in a lot of his video's.

I think it's a combination of him coming across as extremely opinionated while at the same time showing no sign of vulnerability at all.

That combination always rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

I've never had a terribly high opinion of TB. He always came off as a self-important, hypocritical asshole interested in "integrity" only insofar as it made himself look better.

His comments concerning GG have done nothing to dismiss that notion.

I found this on KIA the other day, is this not what he's referring to? They don't all say "gamers are dead" in those exact words, but the that is certainly interesting that all those went up on the same day.

They all went up on the same day because they were all responding the the same article that had gone viral. Such is the aggregate nature of online journalism. There's a discussion to be had about the merits of that practice, but it's no indication that any collusion was involved.

 

[BanGy.nz]

By this time next year, the #GG story will be that Leigh Alexander body slammed the 1200 lbs. Gabe Newell, killing him instantly, at the Pontiac Silverdome in New Orleans, Louisiana, in front of a horde of 300,000 SJW "journalists" who all immediately reported that "fat neckbeard straight cis white male nerd gamer scum are dead and we killed them all muahahahaha" to literally every news outlet in existence,

Spoiler

brother

.

WHATCA GONNA DO SISTER WHEN ALEXANDERMANIA RUNS WILD YOU!

 

[MotherFan]

I found this on KIA the other day, is this not what he's referring to? They don't all say "gamers are dead" in those exact words, but the that is certainly interesting that all those went up on the same day.

Its a typical way that narratives work. It's not the first time that something happens and suddenly 15 articles pop out about it in quick succession and it won't be the last time. This happens in all media.

 

[Menome]

I found this on KIA the other day, is this not what he's referring to? They don't all say "gamers are dead" in those exact words, but the that is certainly interesting that all those went up on the same day.

Well, Leigh Alexander's went up first. Then half a day to a day's worth of time passed. Then reaction pieces were posted. They didn't all appear at once.

 

[tonysidaway]

Mozilla is hosting an opinion piece by a pro-GG individual responding to the recent one by Audrey Watter dealing with GamerGater in Ed-tech. Gators are of course doing a complete 180 on their opinion of Mozilla.

Link is here: https://openstandard.mozilla.org/yes-gamergate-is-everyones-issue/

Letting Gaters have the occasional rebuttal piece does help brands to dissolve animosity. The only way I'd fault The Escapist on this is that they went overboard in giving people like Roguestar and Grim a platform. Their earlier piece from women game developers was powerful, all the more so because it gave a diverse range of opinions.

The reality of the situation is that the mainstream media sets the tone on this, and they are not about to mortgage their basic credibility by ignoring the real issues for the chimera of journalistic integrity as defined by the Gamergate fringe. This is why we have this end game, a movement beset by colossal PR problems and without any clear direction.

 

[Ri'Orius]

I read Leigh Alexander's article again.

It's pretty obviously a reaction to what I'll call proto-gamergate. The harrassment of Zoey and Anita, and the people that were already claiming this was an ethics issue or that Zoey/Anita were being attention whores.

So, Leigh is using 'gamers' to refer only to the 'obtuse shit-slingers'

And that's a problem. I mean, if you write an article using the word "Muslim" to refer only to "terrorist," or the word "conservative" to refer only to "homophobic racist morons," you're going to offend a lot of people who identify with the former but don't want to be painted with the broad brush of the latter.

...

So lots of people got the idea that the article really was just an anti-gamer piece rather than a more nuanced argument that this narrow sub-type of of 'gamer' (with scare-quotes) should not be the target audience for games.

Right, so it's a piece trying to convince game devs to stop making the sort of games that GGers like and appeal to a broader audience. If you try to take someone's toys away, they're going to be upset.

I mean, look at the first two paragraphs of the article:

I often say I’m a video game culture writer, but lately I don’t know exactly what that means. ‘Game culture’ as we know it is kind of embarrassing -- it’s not even culture. It’s buying things, spackling over memes and in-jokes repeatedly, and it’s getting mad on the internet.

It’s young men queuing with plush mushroom hats and backpacks and jutting promo poster rolls. Queuing passionately for hours, at events around the world, to see the things that marketers want them to see. To find out whether they should buy things or not. They don’t know how to dress or behave. Television cameras pan across these listless queues, and often catch the expressions of people who don’t quite know why they themselves are standing there.

There's nothing in there about women or misogyny. That's just taking things a lot of people like (memes and conventions) and saying "lol so stupid!" Now take a look at the highlighted phrases of the article:

"When you decline to create or to curate a culture in your spaces, you’re responsible for what spawns in the vacuum."

"Traditional 'gaming' is sloughing off, culturally and economically, like the carapace of a bug."

"'Gamer' isn't just a dated demographic label that most people increasingly prefer not to use. Gamers are over. That's why they’re so mad."

It's not hard to read the article and think the takeaway is "gaming culture is lame and we, the video games industry as a whole, should abandon it." Which, yeah, will make people who enjoy gaming culture angry.

 

[Mael]

Letting Gaters have the occasional rebuttal piece does help brands to dissolve animosity. The only way I'd fault The Escapist on this is that they went overboard in giving people like Roguestar and Grim a platform. Their earlier piece from women game developers was powerful, all the more so because it gave a diverse range of opinions.

The reality of the situation is that the mainstream media sets the tone on this, and they are not about to mortgage their basic credibility by ignoring the real issues for the chimera of journalistic integrity as defined by the Gamergate fringe. This is why we have this end game, a movement beset by colossal PR problems and without any clear direction.

What real issue with journalist integrity defined by the GG fringe did this whole thing unhearth?
And since you're using such a strong language I'm expecting something on the level of Doritosgate.

 

[DerBonk]

That was a sobering, shitty revelation for me as well. Similarly my main critique of the Tropes videos was that they were too simple. Then the reaction to those showed that even that level of discourse was too much for people.

The second I heard about the outcry around the Feminist Frequency Kickstarter and had a look at her work I had the same realization. Though, honestly, I wasn't shocked. It's not like the image of the "dudebro," CoD/Madden/FIFA playing, teenage boy hasn't been around. It's still incredibly sad and I worry that it has damaged gaming in general. If we can't have a discussion about the Trope videos, we certainly can't have a discussion about actually controversial issues in gaming. Because most of what Sarkeesian should be non-controversial. I also agree that her approach is too simple and in general I do not think that "tropes" are a good tool for academic analysis, but I understand that her videos are not meant to be journal articles (which few people read for that same reason).

It's called a News Cycle. It's not that interesting.

It happens all the time, literally. I am so confused why people don't get that.

 

[vcc]

What real issue with journalist integrity defined by the GG fringe did this whole thing unhearth?
And since you're using such a strong language I'm expecting something on the level of Doritosgate.

Doritosgate was stupid too.

If you use their language as a guideline, the only thing that could justify it would be media hiding a zombie apocalypse from us. Anything short of that would make them seem ridiculous.

 

[Mael]

Doritosgate was stupid too.

If you use their language as a guideline, the only thing that could justify it would be media hiding a zombie apocalypse from us. Anything short of that would make them seem ridiculous.

Well with the right chrome extension.... a skeleton apocalypse is the next best thing right?

 

[tonysidaway]

What real issue with journalist integrity defined by the GG fringe did this whole thing unhearth?
And since you're using such a strong language I'm expecting something on the level of Doritosgate.

I think you may have misread my piece. My fault, I should be a better writer or at least try to write for clarity.

I refer here to a "chimera", specifically a false vision of gaming journalism integrity which the mainstream media have quite correctly ignored. The real issues I refer to are basically a violent misogyny that I have not seen outside this field. It's not surprising that the mainstream journalists pay far more attention to people put in physical danger or under terror.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

And that's a problem. I mean, if you write an article using the word "Muslim" to refer only to "terrorist," or the word "conservative" to refer only to "homophobic racist morons," you're going to offend a lot of people who identify with the former but don't want to be painted with the broad brush of the latter.


Right, so it's a piece trying to convince game devs to stop making the sort of games that GGers like and appeal to a broader audience. If you try to take someone's toys away, they're going to be upset.

I mean, look at the first two paragraphs of the article:

There's nothing in there about women or misogyny. That's just taking things a lot of people like (memes and conventions) and saying "lol so stupid!" Now take a look at the highlighted phrases of the article:



It's not hard to read the article and think the takeaway is "gaming culture is lame and we, the video games industry as a whole, should abandon it." Which, yeah, will make people who enjoy gaming culture angry.

The thing is, 'gamer culture' has been largely defined by marketing, and is so stereotypical that there is a legit question in if it is at all representative of actual game players.

This isn't a new question, it's been around for years. Every time the mainstream does something 'gamer culture' wise, it's wildly offensive to many game players. We aren't all gore loving, mt dew chugging, cheetos crewing basement dwellers like the stereotype says we are. So why is that what the marketing keeps targeting?

Highlighting quotes from the article doesn't work unless you understand those quotes place in the greater article, ie their context. The entire article is a rail against what the marketing has declared to be 'gamer' and what the reality of game players is. In context, the article is perfectly reasonable and a decent argument for community to move away form the label in favor of something more accurate.

The reason people got so pissed is there are so so very wrapped up in the label that the idea of actually admitting the reality of who plays, where, and how is practically heresy to them. So an argument about leaving behind that label they so cling to is also a horrible bad thing, for some reason.

Again, nothing new, there were arguments that gameboy players and tetris/column were not 'real gamers' or 'real games' back int he early 90's. The diehard hardcore have always resisted admitting new people into their club.

 

[Oersted]

I found this on KIA the other day, is this not what he's referring to? They don't all say "gamers are dead" in those exact words, but the that is certainly interesting that all those went up on the same day.

It has been 5 pieces. Leigh Alexander's "Gamers" are over article, two articles which reported about the article and the controversy it caused, 1 a few days later which agreed with Leighs premise and one which disagreed.

Conspiracy!!!

Has someone MHWILLIAMS post bookmarked?

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Why would I be concerned with my credibility in the media when I am the media?

No, I am the media!

 

[Corpekata]

The reason the 10 articles on the same day thing gets mocked is because it's clearly misrepresented. For instance, that KiA link ignores that one of the articles was written on the 26th, and is what some of those other pieces are responding too. Add in that some of the articles are barely more than links to other articles, some are on personal tumblirs, some on non-gaming sites like Buzzfeed, and it's clearly being inflated.