-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen
- Thread starter ResetEraVetVIP
- Start date
- NSFW
Bojji
Member
Bojji I see those fingers leaking light? Maybe I am wrong, trying to find examples with ears like the ones you shared but I think they removed Faye ears from the all of the trailer lol even when her hair move way behind on many scenes I don't see ears, like what the fuck?
From what I can see light source is inside her palm and casted onto fingers, it's not leaking from outside the fingers (so where the cube is).
At least that's what I think, I could be wrong.
Kaiserstark
Member
Yes, I expect the combat to be serviceable at best, but the worst part seems to be the enemy AI, which hardly reacts.
Msamy
Member
Yes, am also could be totally wrong hopefully we will find the answer when they show more from it, but not having ears is truly shocking for me, did they build the model without them?
Bojji
Member
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
4 years later and no one can match a cross gen game. why?
why cant the industry look at the gold standard and copy paste it 4-5 years later? apparently gg created an algorithm to generated these animations. why cant no one else? its been 4 years!!!
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
??
Looks good enough to me.
Has the best fire i've ever seen in a game.
EDIT: Amazing smoke too @ 1:48
Last edited:
Msamy
Member
Aside from fire all looks like below ue5 average??
Looks good enough to me.
Has the best fire i've ever seen in a game.
viveks86
Member
I think you are misunderstanding how SSS works in games. The top games from SSM, ND etc have had SSS engaged since the PS4 era. The way to test if SSS is working or not is not by posting indirectly lit shots, but by posting directly lit shots. Every example you have post of SSS working is directly lit. And every example you have post of Faye to prove SSS not working is indirectly lit.
This is what Kratos looks like in Ragnarok when indirectly lit without hero lights. Do you see any SSS?
Here's how he looks when he is directly lit. Notice how much softer the lines on his face and forehead are:
And here's an example where, Kratos doesn't seem to have SSS on his bald head (see harsh skin "noise") because the light isn't directly hitting the visible side of his head, but Atreus gets it on his ear:
They all have SSS. But SSS only reacts to the amount of light being gathered by the diffusion model.
Now coming to Laufey, the game actually has SSS on most materials. Not just Faye, but most other characters, cloth, wood and bones. It's why some of us are instinctively feeling this game is doing way more than people give it credit for, but proving it is not as obvious. To convince you that the game has SSS, I need to show you glowing ears. Where do I find glowing ears in a trailer of a woman with long hair? Lol
The problem is if they are not directly lit, then it will come down to the quality of the GI in that scene. And the GI quality is absolute shit in the opening section of the trailer after she wakes up. There is no direct light hitting her most of the time and I believe they have a new (likely) probe based GI which is giving something. It is not baked GI anymore. I can prove out the new GI system in action later due to post length. But it would still not be sufficient for exaggerated SSS, like the examples you show.
I can't give you ears as evidence, but here are some examples:
Creature being thrown into fire. The tail is almost glowing from the light behind
Here's a GIF to see how it reacts to direct light hitting it.
This monster tongue:
There's so much subtle response to light that SSS is the only way.
The only thing that seems to not respond well to light are the few pieces of cloth on Begtse's arm. Literally everything else is doing SSS. SSS on 2018/Ragnarok is much harder to find outside of skin and leather. I believe they added it to ice and snow in Ragnarok and that's about it. Wood still looked like shit when responding to the old baked GI.
But if you want a glowing rod up her nose or a bulb behind her ears so it turns red like a cherry, I'm sorry, I have no proof yet
The reason modern games seemingly miss SSS all the time is because SSS is still a diffusion based approximation and they need lots of light to be responsive. Only Kojima games have exaggerated SSS where they look to be working all the time. But that also has the side effect of looking too soft, waxy and translucent. That's his signature look since even early MGS games.
Here's the famous RE Requiem comparison. Both shots have the exact same SSS diffusion model for Grace's face. But one appears to be working because path tracing is giving much more light for the model to work with.
Raster versus RTGI light bounce (slightly better SSS response)
RTGI vs wayyyy more light from PT (massively improved SSS response)
Same SSS on all of them. Just better lighting
The issue you are pointing out in her earlier shot (which does look quite poor) is an issue of lighting i.e insufficient light from GI or PT. Not SSS
Last edited:
Bojji
Member
I think you are misunderstanding how SSS works in games. The top games from SSM, ND etc have had SSS engaged since the PS4 era. The way to test if SSS is working or not is not by posting indirectly lit shots, but by posting directly lit shots. Every example you have post of SSS working is directly lit. And every example you have post of Faye to prove SSS not working is indirectly lit.
This is what Kratos looks like in Ragnarok when indirectly lit without hero lights. Do you see any SSS?
Here's how he looks when he is directly lit. Notice how much softer the lines on his face and forehead are:
And here's an example where, Kratos doesn't seem to have SSS on his bald head (see harsh skin "noise") because the light isn't directly hitting the visible side of his head, but Atreus gets it on his ear:
They all have SSS. But SSS only reacts to the amount of light being gathered by the diffusion model.
Now coming to Laufey, the game actually has SSS on most materials. Not just Faye, but most other characters, cloth, wood and bones. It's why some of us are instinctively feeling this game is doing way more than people give it credit for, but proving it is not as obvious. To convince you that the game has SSS, I need to show you glowing ears. Where do I find glowing ears in a trailer of a woman with long hair? Lol
The problem is if they are not directly lit, then it will come down to the quality of the GI in that scene. And the GI quality is absolute shit in the opening section of the trailer after she wakes up. There is no direct light hitting her most of the time and I believe they have a new (likely) probe based GI which is giving something. It is not baked GI anymore. I can prove out the new GI system in action later due to post length. But it would still not be sufficient for exaggerated SSS, like the examples you show.
I can't give you ears as evidence, but here are some examples:
Creature being thrown into fire. The tail is almost glowing from the light behind
Here's a GIF to see how it reacts to direct light hitting it.
This monster tongue:
There's so much subtle response to light that SSS is the only way.
The only thing that seems to not respond well to light are the few pieces of cloth on Begtse's arm. Literally everything else is doing SSS. SSS on 2018/Ragnarok is much harder to find outside of skin and leather. I believe they added it to ice and snow in Ragnarok and that's about it. Wood still looked like shit when responding to the old baked GI.
But if you want a glowing rod up her nose or a bulb behind her ears so it turns red like a cherry, I'm sorry, I have no proof yet
The reason modern games seemingly miss SSS all the time is because SSS is still a diffusion based approximation and they need lots of light to be responsive. Only Kojima games have exaggerated SSS where they look to be working all the time. But that also has the side effect of looking too soft, waxy and translucent. That's his signature look since even early MGS games.
Here's the famous RE Requiem comparison. Both shots have the exact same SSS diffusion model for Grace's face. But one appears to be working because path tracing is giving much more light for the model to work with.
Raster versus RTGI light bounce (slightly better SSS response)
RTGI vs wayyyy more light from PT (massively improved SSS response)
Same SSS on all of them, just better lighting
The issue you are pointing out in her earlier shot (which does look quite poor) is an issue of lighting i.e the sufficient light from GI or PT. Not SSS
Very detailed post, thank you. That Atreus picture is quite covincing.
But the problem is, if this doesn't look good when lighting sstem is bad - we see results like that:
Her skin details look like in The Witcher 3 characters where lack of SSS was super obvious.
viveks86
Member
All this depends how the diffusion model works. None of this is path traced. The glowing light on her hand isn't even a point light. It casts no shadows and doesn't light the surrounding. One is just an emissive texture/particle with some GI bounce. These are not comparable. You are looking for extreme conditions which require a similar reproduction in the game. We are only working with the little footage we have. SSS is so obvious in the game if you know how it works and not just look for the extremes.Lighting should be leaking through fingers if there was SSS on the skin, I don't see it here. Just a direct light coming to some parts of the hand.
Fingers are not leaking light
Msamy
Member
I think that's a problem with lightning on that specific cutscene sequence after her awakens, that for me is good thing which means cutscenes and gameplay have same lighting, also they will fix this by launch, that said thanksVery detailed post, thank you. That Atreus picture is quite covincing.
But the problem is, if this doesn't look good when lighting sstem is bad - we see results like that:
Her skin details look like in The Witcher 3 characters where lack of SSS was super obvious.
viveks86
for those ears I searched for them for long to convice
Bojji
,Also those tentacles nailed it
Last edited:
coachmcguirk91
Member
It really is a shame that such a terrible story with bland characters is the gold standard. The Tavern looks more next gen than anything I have seen this generation
Fable is obviously doing a lot more with how interactive their world is, but I hope they can have similar NPC density and animations as the scene above
Last edited:
viveks86
Member
Yes it is really bad in that shot. It's because she isn't lit well. That entire lighting is coming from a GI probe instead of a point lightVery detailed post, thank you. That Atreus picture is quite covincing.
But the problem is, if this doesn't look good when lighting sstem is bad - we see results like that:
Her skin details look like in The Witcher 3 characters where lack of SSS was super obvious.
So are you willing to conclude Kratos has no SSS either if I just cherry pick bad spots?
Here you go then. Ragnarok has no SSS confirmed! Skin is shit, Clothes are shit. Leather is shit. Just unresponsive, high resolution texture everywhere. Confirmation bias at its finest:
And if I really want to play dirty, imagine if I post this anytime people claim "barely any improvement worthy of current gen tag"? Would you take me seriously?
This is not how you seek the truth is all I can say.
Msamy
Member
I think them switching racing game engine to an open world rpg is with high graphics except some tech issue (which can solve by POM shader) is great achievement, at least they take hard part path unlike many on the industry
GymWolf
Member
The story was fine until like half way throught (but still inferior to the first game), but they fucked up the villains and finale and the next threat for h3 is boring and lame af, the problem with the game is the boring writing for the most part and mostly boring characters.
Bojji
Member
Yes it is really bad in that shot. It's because she isn't lit well. That entire lighting is coming from a GI probe instead of a point light
So are you willing to conclude Kratos has no SSS either if I just cherry pick bad spots?
Here you go then. Ragnarok has no SSS confirmed! Skin is shit, Clothes are shit. Leather is shit. Just unresponsive, high resolution texture everywhere. Confirmation bias at its finest:
And if I really want to play dirty, imagine if I post this anytime people claim "barely any improvement worthy of current gen tag"? Would you take me seriously?
This is not how you seek the truth is all I can say.
You can't call it a good implementation if it's so hard to notice. I played GOW and Ragnarok and was convinced that both games don't have SSS (compared to Capcom or even other Sony games).
If games are going to have shitty lighting then it doesn't really matter if they are gonna have SSS on or off, when end results will look like this:
Msamy
Member
I want to ask youYes it is really bad in that shot. It's because she isn't lit well. That entire lighting is coming from a GI probe instead of a point light
So are you willing to conclude Kratos has no SSS either if I just cherry pick bad spots?
Here you go then. Ragnarok has no SSS confirmed! Skin is shit, Clothes are shit. Leather is shit. Just unresponsive, high resolution texture everywhere. Confirmation bias at its finest:
And if I really want to play dirty, imagine if I post this anytime people claim "barely any improvement worthy of current gen tag"? Would you take me seriously?
This is not how you seek the truth is all I can say.
viveks86
I think they using some sort of hybrid rtgi (baked lighting +real time) on Faye, like soft lumen,, what's your thoughts?
Last edited:
squallbr
Member
PS3 BUILDlol.
Msamy
Member
You can't call it a good implementation if it's so hard to notice. I played GOW and Ragnarok and was convinced that both games don't have SSS (compared to Capcom or even other Sony games).
If games are going to have shitty lighting then it doesn't really matter if they are gonna have SSS on or off, when end results will look like this:
Bojji
I told you that 20 sec sequence after her awakens is the worst on the whole trailer there are many other sequences with good lighting I shared them already , so why chose the worst from game comparing it to best of other, also I can assure you that they will definitely upgrade this sequence, SMS always surpass their initial trailers except for cgi ones
Last edited:
Bojji
Member
Game is probably like 1.5 years away, it will look different that presentation, there is no doubt about it (not to mention there could be a PS6 version).
viveks86
Member
What you are showing is a scenario of no SSS vs a failing scenario of SSS. Of course they would both exhibit the same issuesYou can't call it a good implementation if it's so hard to notice. I played GOW and Ragnarok and was convinced that both games don't have SSS (compared to Capcom or even other Sony games).
If games are going to have shitty lighting then it doesn't really matter if they are gonna have SSS on or off, when end results will look like this:
But you can never get Geralt's Skin to respond like this even if you find a way to path trace TW3.
The worst case scenario in Faye is the best case scenario on TW3. The best case scenario in Faye for SSS is absolutely the best current gen can do until PT SSS becomes a thing. That's probably 2 generations away, but hybrid models like that in HL2 remix can make it a reality next gen
Msamy
Member
The best is their official channel video but it's bad 10mb bitrate, sony and Ms currently didn't share direct feed capture with press/youtubers, unless you are big like ign - eurogamer - etc, those who sony directly emailed them with direct feed capture links
Last edited:
viveks86
Member
This requires a lot more analysis on the video and the last week's barrage of games has already been killing me. I'm bouncing from one to another like a hyper enthusiastic squirrel. It's almost too much!I want to ask you
My gut tells me there is a dynamic probe based GI working alongside the baked direct lights. How the probe works? I need to spend more time. It could be something like Ubisoft's older software based probe GI, or Doom's RT probe GI on base console. I've not seen enough of Doom to know how to tell the difference between the two techniques. It's not per pixel RTGI for sure. Not even single bounce RTGI like Ghost of Yotei. But it's certainly not fully baked GI like 2018/Ragnarok.
As a result, completely failing cases of GI like this will likely never happen in Laufey. Unless they forget to place probes altogether (which can still happen in edge cases)
Last edited:
Msamy
Member
I would really appreciate if you provide top tier analysis on this topic if you have time, because I am also think Faye have some fourm of realtime rt lighting mixed in but I'dont have those top tier analysis skills like yours, you nailed many topics hereThis requires a lot more analysis on the video and the last week's barrage of games has already been killing me. I'm bouncing from one to another like a hyper enthusiastic squirrel. It's almost too much!
My gut tells me there is a dynamic probe based GI working alongside the baked direct lights. How the probe works? I need to spend more time. It could be something like Ubisoft's older software based probe GI, or Doom's RT probe GI on base console. I've not seen enough of Doom to know how to tell the difference between the two techniques. It's not per pixel RTGI for sure. Not even single bounce RTGI like Ghost of Yotei. But it's certainly not fully baked GI like 2018/Ragnarok.
As a result, completely failing cases of GI like this will likely never happen in Laufey. Unless they forget to place probes altogether (which can still happen in edge cases)
Bitstream
Member
Last edited:
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Asha's balls in my throat?
Last week - Washing Machines
This week - SSS
Next week - ???
Next week's mandate is already set to Walking Animations
Get with the times papi.
viveks86
Member
Will do. Been slowly collecting evidence to respond toI would really appreciate if you provide top tier analysis on this topic if you have time, because I am also think Faye have some fourm of realtime rt lighting mixed in but I'dont have those top tier analysis skills like yours, you nailed many topics here
dgrdsv
about what the differences really are since 2018/Ragnarok. Will get to it eventually. Don't know about what I'm "nailing" or what is top tier. Lol. But I appreciate the compliment. I'm certainly guessing as much as anyone here. Stuck my neck out quite a bit about there being no HW lumen GI (or even RT reflections) in E-Day yesterday. Based on barely enough evidence, especially reflections, as the game seems designed around never showing any of it clearly! I'm probably going to be wrong about the reflections part, but always happy to be proven wrong if the end result is better than expected.
YeulEmeralda
Linux User
Maybe this is why Sony stops releasing on PC. Nvidia path tracing humiliated them.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
false. these people have no honor or shame.Maybe this is why Sony stops releasing on PC. Nvidia path tracing humiliated them.
I know you prolly have a million notifications but can you quickly elaborate? Like what is PT SSS? How does it differ from the current one, and why is it two gens away? That heavy?
Cumulus
Member
Got around to actually watch that Fable gameplay.
And yeesh, another very mixed bag.
Great highly detailed assets in some spots and then mid-ps4ish quality ones right besides them. We can also see aaaaaaall the legacy tech issues.
Shadows and details popping into existence, flat "geometry-textures" everywhere, indirect lighting being mostly rubbish, lighting-pop in from delayed probe updates, so so stiff animations with very lacking motion matching etc etc.....add the non existent facial expressions for every single NPC shown and ultra janky combat to the mix and you get another Frankenstein cross-gen-ish game.....
What the fuck is wrong with these big budget first party titles when even the likes of Ubisoft can get their tech up to snuff but these guys can`t?
This game better be immensely impressive from a gameplay perspective because the tech sure isn`t.
And yeesh, another very mixed bag.
Great highly detailed assets in some spots and then mid-ps4ish quality ones right besides them. We can also see aaaaaaall the legacy tech issues.
Shadows and details popping into existence, flat "geometry-textures" everywhere, indirect lighting being mostly rubbish, lighting-pop in from delayed probe updates, so so stiff animations with very lacking motion matching etc etc.....add the non existent facial expressions for every single NPC shown and ultra janky combat to the mix and you get another Frankenstein cross-gen-ish game.....
What the fuck is wrong with these big budget first party titles when even the likes of Ubisoft can get their tech up to snuff but these guys can`t?
This game better be immensely impressive from a gameplay perspective because the tech sure isn`t.
Last edited:
viveks86
Member
Haha. Jokes aside, it definitely does humiliate them. Which is what gets me excited for next gen. The moment PT is fully in place, all baking and rendering "tricks" can be sunset or relegated to cross gen "life support" and shit will stop looking so inconsistent. Helix X, PS6 Pro along with 60 series and RDNA 5 would be where true diminishing returns start to hit on basic lighting. Then the battle will move to other things, like volumetrics, transparencies, caustics, physics etc.Maybe this is why Sony stops releasing on PC. Nvidia path tracing humiliated them.
And, of course, actual SSS on leaves and foliage. I was staring at the leaves on an average potted sage plant the past weekend and was wondering why a single game in existence doesn't look anything like it. Literally not one game convincingly does SSS or reproduce the "waxiness" and specularity of an average green leaf that is lit well. Like... Look at it... Just... look at it...
Or this:
But yeah, we loosely throw around terms like "diminishing returns' while paying no attention to how far we actually need to go to mimic reality.
Critical Hit
Member
It's ok, but It looks like it's running at 20fps.
viveks86
Member
What? No. I'm nobody. Lol.
Current PT is only for hitting a surface. The expectation for most PT techniques is light bounces the moment it hits a surface (with some loss in intensity depending on the material). Most games don't even do PT for hair, even though it's technically a surface as well. Individual hair strands in RE Requiem, for example, is NOT path traced. It's actually rasterized as one big surface. If you force PT for Requiem using an AMD card, you will actually see that the hair is not path traced at all.
Indiana Jones is the only game that does PT hair at the moment. And for transparencies, I know Alan Wake does it. SSS is where light penetrates the surface. Sub-surface. And unlike transparencies, like glass, it bounces around under the surface 100s or thousands of time before leaving the surface (or being fully absorbed, like hitting bone). Nobody has even attempted Sub Surface Scattering with PT in a production game except HL2 remix. And even that is only path tracing the easy part i.e the direct lighting for the first hit below the skin surface. The actual difficult part is still approximated with a diffusion model. It's a rendering trick with a very complex formula on how light diffuses/spreads under the skin. You need thousands or even millions of rays to get it all to simulate purely on PT. So instead, the hybrid technique works great in RTX Remix and is almost 99% close to ground truth. An excellent GDC talk on it this year (timestamped):
Diffusion models could get better in the future with AI essentially guessing what path traced SSS should look like based on the material properties and the light source. AI and PT could play well together when AI becomes an integral part of the rendering process. And when I say rendering, I mean RENDERING. Not POST PROCESSING. So I don't mean DLSS 5. Something else will eventually come. Hopefully.
In the real world, every object has some degree of SSS. Unless it's a 100% reflective mirror. And nothing is truly 100% so even that should have SSS. But trying to pull it off for ALL materials is a complete waste of processing. Again, something that AI can short circuit in the future. There's still a long way to go in this field.
Last edited:
analog_future
Resident Crybaby
pre-alpha though. Probably still a couple years off
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Asha's balls in my throat?
Not every studio has that kind of time or budget, especially with middleware tools making development easier with time.
I always give the CDPR go-to example. They're not short on money, they had their own tech but still opt to completely shift to UE5 now. There has to be a legitimate reason for this kind of move.
Also, like
analog_future
said, we're looking at way the fuck early footage. This game ain't coming out for at least 2~ more years.You, sir, have become my favorite Gaffer. Thank you so much for the detailed explanation of this, turns out I dunno shit (I was never the technical guy anyways), this is some next level stuff.
Will give that video you recommended a watch. I wonder if it's even worth going through all those hoops to achieve PT SSS graphics wise!!
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
because despite online hysteria, ubisoft was always pushing graphics. they were just making mid tier games or releasing them in buggy states but theyve been great at pushing tech since 2007. and possibly before that but i wasnt a big ubisoft guy before the first ac.
so yes, i take issue with you saying even the likes of ubisoft, when they were always up there among the best of the best. theyve just continued doing so while others have stagnated.
i like fable but antone who saw The nanite Demo in 2020 and didnt immediately start working on a virtualized geometry system is a fool.
Last edited:
viveks86
Member
It's meaningless brute force for something that is literally below the surface. So you are right. It won't be worth it. AI models built specifically for the material (like neural materials) will be up for the task.
But for even AI to be used THAT extensively, we would have to wait till the end of PS6 or PS7 generation.
High end PCs will most certainly get there sooner, as always.
Last edited:
viveks86
Member
RE Engine still undefeated for skin rendering. The second I saw the hand I knew we were looking at the next Resident Evil game:
Agreed. CV is another graphically underrated game in last week's showing. Seems like a step up from Requiem even at first glance. And that's not even their path traced version. I'm sure it will have a few more bells and whistles on consoles and much more on PC. Requiem and Pragmata were rush jobs for PT.
Similar threads
- Poll