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"Hand drawn animation is inherently superior" is the most bs claim I've ever seen.
- Thread starter Boss Doggie
- Start date
101 Dalmatians used rotoscoped vehicles.
Ah I was only thinking of characters. Didn't know that about 101 Dalmatians.
Hey that sounds a lot like Toei.
Toei 1970
Toei 2017
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
How is it uncanny valley? It looks like the comic come to life with modern tech.
So you're saying that it doesn't look like Charlie Brown whatsoever?
I know animation is just the illusion of movement but there's something intrinsically more appealing about 2D (on paper or digital) frame by frame animation that 3D rigging hasn't achieved yet. Even now when some of the studios are loosening up with their 3D animated features and letting animators replicate more classic Looney Toons esque gags in 3D it still reads as a simulacra of 2D and not its own thing. Having worked on 2D and 3D its not even a case of sweat equity clouding my bias since 3D takes a ton of work too. The restrictions of having to deal with a 3D camera means you can't cheat a frame like you could in 2D. In the end I feel like 2D frame by frame still retains a bit more of the gestural nature of animation.
There's a lot of truth to this. The blue seizure DBZ gif being a perfect example.
You can get away with a lot of corner cutting without watering down the experience with 2D. With 3D it's a lot harder. Part of it is societal, we're primed to expect quality CG because of its current place in our media, but part of it is biological too. We can mentally abstract a flat drawing easier than we can abstract a 3D one. Stick figures will rarely invoke uncanny valley but CG struggles with uncanny valley all the time.
Every action sequence in the 3D Clone Wars is inferior to what is seen in the 2D shorts.
Shadow Hog
Member
I'm not really concerned about which is "superior"; I just kind of miss traditional 2D animated films in theaters. It's not that it was "superior", just that it's absent, and you know how absence makes the heart grow fonder.
I recall hearing that Princess and the Frog and Winnie the Pooh (2011) weren't supposed to be a "final hurrah" for 2D-animated films, but rather that Disney had planned to alternate between 2D and 3D every other Animated Canon film. The rub is, their follow-up to those two fell through - an adaptation of Terry Pratchett's Discworld novel, Mort. Regardless of whether the asking price for the license was too high, or the license holder was disinterested due to a then-recent live-action adaptation of The Colour of Money, Disney couldn't seal the deal, and it kind of killed the 2D animation department as a result.
I'm certainly aware of Disney's attempts to emulate 2D animation with their 3D workflows, but to be honest, they've yet to really do it for me. Paperman is gorgeous, but it still looks like a 3D CG film to my eyes - there's something off about it, very subtly, that has my brain process it as "CG film with a very nice filter" instead of "yeah, this is obviously traditionally animated". That said, other companies managed to pull off what Disney was attempting in the interim - Guilty Gear Xrd, notably, definitely fooled my brain when I saw the initial trailers. Still, that's a fighting game, not a Hollywood-budget animated feature film...
I recall hearing that Princess and the Frog and Winnie the Pooh (2011) weren't supposed to be a "final hurrah" for 2D-animated films, but rather that Disney had planned to alternate between 2D and 3D every other Animated Canon film. The rub is, their follow-up to those two fell through - an adaptation of Terry Pratchett's Discworld novel, Mort. Regardless of whether the asking price for the license was too high, or the license holder was disinterested due to a then-recent live-action adaptation of The Colour of Money, Disney couldn't seal the deal, and it kind of killed the 2D animation department as a result.
I'm certainly aware of Disney's attempts to emulate 2D animation with their 3D workflows, but to be honest, they've yet to really do it for me. Paperman is gorgeous, but it still looks like a 3D CG film to my eyes - there's something off about it, very subtly, that has my brain process it as "CG film with a very nice filter" instead of "yeah, this is obviously traditionally animated". That said, other companies managed to pull off what Disney was attempting in the interim - Guilty Gear Xrd, notably, definitely fooled my brain when I saw the initial trailers. Still, that's a fighting game, not a Hollywood-budget animated feature film...
Spiritual_Chaos
Banned
UPA pioneered it. Turning "cheap" into a "visual look".
I actually made a music video inspired by that post modern look this spring for swedish artist Per Gessle (of Roxette fame):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ggi9uo5ap0
ArkhamFantasy
Member
I like Square Enix CGI the best.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
No? It looks like 3D Charlie Brown, not 2D Charlie Brown.
They did a LOT of both.
My instructor in college was an animator on Disney films for about twenty years, and they never passed up an opportunity to have references or directly trace things they felt would make the film look good (even if it meant reusing old animation to save time and money).
I love Genndy too, but not ALL of them were inherently better.
A lot of my dislike for CG comes from anime, where they're trying to offload/shortcut work in a mostly 2d show. On a seasonal budget. It's plainly obvious and often distracting. Anime just doesn't have the budget/manpower/time to incorporate it.
I miss 2d animated vehicles.
Perhaps this is not particular to CG, but things like how the Overwatch shorts are animated, like it's almost too smooth or something. I can't put my finger on it.
There may also be animate techniques that are just unique to either form though.
Like this while super brief, got me real, real hype.
Boruto 28
I miss 2d animated vehicles.
Perhaps this is not particular to CG, but things like how the Overwatch shorts are animated, like it's almost too smooth or something. I can't put my finger on it.
There may also be animate techniques that are just unique to either form though.
Like this while super brief, got me real, real hype.
Boruto 28
SigmasonicX
Member
I wasn't aware that Mort was planned to be 2D. Anyway, I'm pretty sure the financial failure of Winnie the Pooh was a bigger factor.
There are still a few 2D theatrical films, but they're either anime, indie, or based on a TV cartoon.
Deuce Deuce
Member
Sweet Jesus this thread...I've been missing out on some great animations.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Why use the blocking pass of that Zootopia anim?
Speaking of natural gestures, it's the same principle of using reference, and it depends on the work:
vs
Plus you absolutely can cheat the camera, Disney and Pixar straight up do that all the time:
A lot of snow white was straight up rotoscoped.
Not that there's anything wrong with that
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Arcsystemworks has shown what good 3D can do.
Spiritual_Chaos
Banned
Cinderella is for sure rotoscoped too. And Sleeping Beauty (haven't seen it)?
And obviously filmed references (Alice in Wonderland etc) was used alot by Disney.
Trickster
Member
I watch pretty much all their stuff and greatly enjoy their movies. It's certainly pretty and technically impressive. But it also just feels....sterile and very much the same, I guess.
I just feel that handdrawn animation allows the animator to be more creative and use artstyles you simply don't see in cgi animation, and probably won't for a long time
One punch man
http://pa1.narvii.com/6271/153cab43d19ffbbfea6054a9e495c5acfbcc7178_hq.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-23-2015/j3SeVn.gif
Space Dandy
https://78.media.tumblr.com/2addf8d1d742b83fa943aa0cc04c47d6/tumblr_ohzr8kd50k1rvxid3o1_540.gif
http://data.whicdn.com/images/241561721/original.gif
Redline
https://78.media.tumblr.com/c114c813a4b4ea28e9d2811fde62a0da/tumblr_o49qrfi7S51v7kio1o1_500.gif
https://78.media.tumblr.com/debd63407397e3b78cd9d18f6d461b8b/tumblr_nxir2kI3i51ulpmhpo1_500.gif
Vampire D Hunter
http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/38900000/Carmilla-Awakens-5-d-38946205-500-269.gif
Diebuster
https://68.media.tumblr.com/384b3032204e2f1d646302c0435d81ff/tumblr_os90y95bUy1vv1g70o1_540.gif
FLCL
https://media.giphy.com/media/11ojoeSpZvjIdO/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/RuPKtmRMcaZ1u/giphy.gif
Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann
https://i.imgur.com/5LPuJDa.gif
https://68.media.tumblr.com/acc55c20e544af6cd36857f2a4a8e755/tumblr_o4fhfdZZz61rjxyrgo10_r1_400.gif
Ghost in the Shell
(nudity) https://media.giphy.com/media/svP7rKm4J6TXW/giphy.gif
Examples like these are so much more expressive and impressive to me than cgi. I think one of the most noticable advantages of handdrawing is how drastically you can exaggerate things and change up the artstyle moment to moment. It allows things to things to be shown in ways I just don't see in cgi.
I don't like rotoscoping but I'll mentally update that note about Disney.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
None of those gifs showcased anything that can't be done with CGI/VFX.
autumnleaf
Member
A lot of arguments in this thread simply come down to budget.
Trickster
Member
Not all those were intended to be things that literally can't be done outside of handdrawn animation. But rather things you don't really see in cgi animation
I'd love to see some cgi examples that offer similar styles as some of those gifs though, because I genuinely don't feel like I've ever seen it
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The film looked emphasized that she was made out of synthetic material than the animated version which made the expansion look much more like actual flesh. Seems like an artistic difference rather than a "we can't make it look exactly the same."
Which part specifically do you think would be impossible with modern tools?
Trying to say whether one medium is superior to the other is frankly insane to me. They both have their strengths and weaknesses and how good it looks is far more dependent on the budget and what's in the hearts and minds of the artists working on it than the tools they use.
I love both handdrawn and CG, and I love working with both. 2D handdrawn lends itself better to exaggerated expressions because your pencil is not limited by your rig. Whereas 3D is better at portraying subtle expressions because your pencil can only go so thin.
I love both handdrawn and CG, and I love working with both. 2D handdrawn lends itself better to exaggerated expressions because your pencil is not limited by your rig. Whereas 3D is better at portraying subtle expressions because your pencil can only go so thin.
It's everything, from the range of Major's motion, to the shaking of the hands, to the momentum of her body when her arm snaps. All this is muted in the live action version because of the limits of Scarjo's acting, VFX finesse and just general vision.
Trickster
Member
I'm not saying they aren't. I'm asking you to show me examples because I myself don't know where to find them as I've never seen them
Sweet Bellic
Member
Sorry OP but hand drawn > cg animation all day every day. Just because hand drawn animators have cut corners here and there shouldn't detract from the insane amount of work that goes into hand drawn animation that is essentially automated with cg. Never really cared for the cg aesthetic either... pretty much hated it since Toy Story. And don't get me started on the prominence of cg creeping up into otherwise hand drawn animation, as seen in Futurama and other newer animated shows. Always looks so jarring and terrible.
SigmasonicX
Member
Several CG animators have posted in this very thread. It's hardly automated, and requires a lot of work to look good.
It'd be cool if anyone out there would even try.
I love Genndy too, but not ALL of them were inherently better.
The Mace sequence was definitely better.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The problem is that you aren't gonna find a lot of anime fights in 3D films, so you're not gonna get anime camera work... Video games are more along that nature, like the storm games:
A big thing at Disney is having feasible camera work
Read above.
I think one thing 2D animation has over 3D is that it ages better. Put on a blu ray of Bambi, and most people would think it still looks beautiful, even though it's from the 1940s.
Put on Bug's Life and yeaahh, you can see the limitations of the technology.
2D animation is better now than it's ever been, and outside of the sound quality and the overall design, most people will have a harder time dating older 2D films (I had to prove to my brother the other day that Lady and the Tramp was from the 50s). 2D animated movies will always be my preference over 3D, but I don't hate 3D. I just wish they had equal amounts of releases. Maybe every other 3D film Disney could release a 2D film, that would be cool.
Put on Bug's Life and yeaahh, you can see the limitations of the technology.
2D animation is better now than it's ever been, and outside of the sound quality and the overall design, most people will have a harder time dating older 2D films (I had to prove to my brother the other day that Lady and the Tramp was from the 50s). 2D animated movies will always be my preference over 3D, but I don't hate 3D. I just wish they had equal amounts of releases. Maybe every other 3D film Disney could release a 2D film, that would be cool.
meltingparappa
Member
Only troglodytes argue over scraps when stratacut remains the true animation medium of kings and emperors.
There's RWBY.
But RWBY is ugly.
You can watch RWBY on twitch presents right now actually, if you don't believe me.
Those aren't even close to the gifs. It emulates the style okay but the detail and movement are pretty sterile.
I really want to know how someone comes to a conclusion like this
Holy shit I think I'm going blind lol
It'd odd. I actually do have a hard time trying to come up with 3D CGI works that attempt the sort of really exaggerated action sequences you can find in a lot of seminal 2D works.
Maybe Advent Children? The Matrix: Reloaded? Maybe I haven't seen enough 3D CGI works to make a contribution on this point either way.
Still, as a counterpoint, Thunderbolt Fantasy (despite being a puppet animation) provides a very interesting look at what could be done with 3D CGI works, were one to apply similar principles to the direction and animation.
Cases in point:
Maybe Advent Children? The Matrix: Reloaded? Maybe I haven't seen enough 3D CGI works to make a contribution on this point either way.
Still, as a counterpoint, Thunderbolt Fantasy (despite being a puppet animation) provides a very interesting look at what could be done with 3D CGI works, were one to apply similar principles to the direction and animation.
Cases in point:
The thing is, the Disney/Pixar/Dreamworks artstyle is trash. Every female character has the same dumb face and everything look and moves samey and boring barring a few exceptions.
Just compare Pocahontas/Mulan/Belle/Meg. Then do the same with Rapunzel/Elsa/Anna/Moana. Just the same fucking face with a few tweaks.
I would never in a million times prefer that bland garbo over 90s Disney.
There are studios however that try to be a bit different and it shows. Sony Pictures, as meh as their movies might be, has (or had before that emetic Emoji movie) a distinct artstyle and animation philosophy that while "safe", is much more interesting than the derivative cheapo stuff Disney/Dreamworks churns out.
Just look at that Popeye short movie.
Just compare Pocahontas/Mulan/Belle/Meg. Then do the same with Rapunzel/Elsa/Anna/Moana. Just the same fucking face with a few tweaks.
I would never in a million times prefer that bland garbo over 90s Disney.
There are studios however that try to be a bit different and it shows. Sony Pictures, as meh as their movies might be, has (or had before that emetic Emoji movie) a distinct artstyle and animation philosophy that while "safe", is much more interesting than the derivative cheapo stuff Disney/Dreamworks churns out.
Just look at that Popeye short movie.
ShirAhava
Plays with kids toys, in the adult gaming world
This
I'd rather see bad hand drawn animation over amazing CG....CG does nothing for me
I prefer 2D style animation whether they are drawing on cells or through digital technology. It is more expressionistic. Some of the earliest animation by Lotte Reiniger is still incredible for the creative art design.
You can do that stuff with CGI too so it is not really an argument against technology but how it is used. I don't really admire 3D animation from Pixar/Disney in the same way. I'm not saying there is no talent or creativity involved, but it doesn't appeal to me. Purely subjective of course.
You could say there is a lot of untapped potential for using CGI in more advant-garde or experimental ways.
You can do that stuff with CGI too so it is not really an argument against technology but how it is used. I don't really admire 3D animation from Pixar/Disney in the same way. I'm not saying there is no talent or creativity involved, but it doesn't appeal to me. Purely subjective of course.
You could say there is a lot of untapped potential for using CGI in more advant-garde or experimental ways.
Dice//
Banned
Both at once sometimes looks a bit off.
That's the studios fault usually.
It can look pretty seemless (see Futurama or Volton working in their spaceships) but there is zero shading on the dude while everything else has the gloss and lighting of a 3D room
Sooo it's a good example of bad work.