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[LotusHD]

Eh, I couldn't imagine being nearly as interested in FFXV had it been turn-based. May have not even bought it. It's my first FF though, so with that being said, I can certainly sympathize with those that miss how FF used to be, and moving forward may never return to it.

But at any rate, I like FFXV for what it is. However, games like Persona 5 and Pokemon still shows you that turn-based doesn't have to be considered as this outdated relic that people should move on from. Just depends on the mechanics and style/presentation of it all.

 

[Gemeanie]

I consider myself a huge fan of turn based JPRGs and just replayed FF7 recently but I find FFXV combat pretty good (not the camera though) and I don't mind if the series continues in the direction and leaves turn based to spinoffs. LO feels a little too... 'conservative' to me after growing up with 2 decades of classic FFs and Megaten/Persona. It's good and solid, but it barely offered anything new in turn based combat system back when it was released.

I'm confident I'll enjoy Persona 5 combat next year though

 

[iuxion]

I agree OP, wish they would go back to turn based and place most of their energy into making sure everything else (art, story, world, pacing) is state of the art.

 

[Cathcart]

I'm pretty sure I'll finish FFXV and when I do it will easily be the worst RPG I've ever finished. I've only stuck with it because I heard the story was pretty short and the ending is cool but man I can't wait to free up some hd space.

Anyway, yes, OP. I'd gladly take some Lost Odyssey in here. Or almost anything else. This thing is a mess.

 

[Mzo]

I love playing a game in a series like Dragon Quest. Modern entries improve on the formula but you can clearly tell what series you're playing.

I don't even know what a Final Fantasy is anymore. Just make a new game with a new title.

 

[The Dude]

I agree OP, wish they would go back to turn based and place most of their energy into making sure everything else (art, story, world, pacing) is state of the art.

I like how you think man

 

[leng jai]

How about just giving us a Lost Odyssey Remaster

 

[Zoator]

I never played LO, so I can't comment on that, but I do have a preference for turn-based combat, especially in party-based games. Having fine control over a set of unique characters and the ability to develop each of those characters fully adds a lot more replay value for me, in contrast to largely being limited to control and decision making for one character. In addition, turn-based combat obviously allows for greater strategic depth, whereas real-time combat places a greater emphasis on twitch reflexes and controls (relatively speaking of course -- I'm not suggesting that real-time combat cannot be strategic). This is just a trade-off, and some people prefer one approach to the other.

One line of thinking that I reject, however, is that turn-based combat is necessarily more slow or less "modern" than real-time combat. There is no hard and fast rule that suggests a turn-based system must be slow and methodical, or it must transition you into a separate battle screen, or any of the things that we typically associate with decades old turn based games. All turn-based means is that actions happen in turns -- everything else is fair game. I would love to see SE, or another company, innovate on turn-based combat in a way that hasn't been seen before, because frankly there is a ton of potential there.

 

[The Dude]

I never played LO, so I can't comment on that, but I do have a preference for turn-based combat, especially in party-based games. Having fine control over a set of unique characters and the ability to develop each of those characters fully adds a lot more replay value for me, in contrast to largely being limited to control and decision making for one character. In addition, turn-based combat obviously allows for greater strategic depth, whereas real-time combat places a greater emphasis on twitch reflexes and controls (relatively speaking of course -- I'm not suggesting that real-time combat cannot be strategic). This is just a trade-off, and some people prefer one approach to the other.

One line of thinking that I reject, however, is that turn-based combat is necessarily more slow or less "modern" than real-time combat. There is no hard and fast rule that suggests a turn-based system must be slow and methodical, or it must transition you into a separate battle screen, or any of the things that we typically associate with decades old turn based games. All turn-based means is that actions happen in turns -- everything else is fair game. I would love to see SE, or another company, innovate on turn-based combat in a way that hasn't been seen before, because frankly there is a ton of potential there.

Graat post, totally agree. And by people's standards in how they condemn turn based combat due to its age, real time combat has been around just as long. They're both age old concepts in video games, I get if someone doesn't enjoy turn based combat, but there's no reason for anyone to discount it based on age

 

[GamerJM]

I think it's a shame that we haven't really gotten a big budget game that's really anything similar to LO since. What a great game. Turn-based RPGs still exist obviously but they're mostly in the form of mid-tier handheld games like Bravely Second of SMT4A. I'm not someone who wants every game to be a big AAA game but it's just a shame these are basically nonexistent now.

 

[Lyng]

I actually enjoy the combat in FFXV.
That said, I would give alot for a new LO. Best jRPG of last gen imo.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

Everyone is arguing about turn based vs real time but this isn't the true problem. Think about it, why did games like X-Com, Persona3/4, and Valkyria Chronicles receive good ratings and sales? Story has to do with it but people enjoyed the combat as well. Why? The real answer has to do with tension, stakes, and creative combat situations. Other than FF1 and FF2, how many final fantasy mainline games have actually made you worry about your party wiping and losing progress for more than 5% of the game? How many mainline FF games have shaken up encounters to where you had to adapt to an entirely new situation?

I've coasted through plenty of older FF games because they have a huge flaw of making turn based battles seem like the boring necessity. They are the thing that you have to endure to move on in the story and discover new things. They seem complimental instead of being a main focus. The battles feel too safe and thus you lose that sense of excitement and strategy when it comes to choosing a character's action on their turn. You end up feeling like you are grinding/going through the motions even though you are supposed to be engaged in a life and death battle.

Games like the ones I've mentioned above brought that feeling back into turn based battle. X-Com has you sometimes losing squad members constantly in very tense battles, same with Valkyria Chronicles. Remember the dread you'd feel in VC when a really strong unit would all of a sudden enter the battlefield? Persona let's you know at the beginning of the game that on certain difficulty modes, if you die that's it. You go back. All the way back to that last save point which could have been hours ago. And their battles can be very hard-hitting. If you brought back FF1/2 difficulty(or harder)back to final fantasy, turn based can work, especially in this post-dark souls age we live in now.

 

[DMONKUMA]

I honestly rather have this than something like Xenoblade's combat. I find it really uninteresting and not great in trying to mix to types of combat genres together.

Probably have to look for something of an alternative the next final fantasy(VII remake) looks to be action oriented than turn-based.

 

[cireza]

I agree with OP that Lost Odyssey is amazing, and still feels like those classic J-RPGs I loved when I was younger.

Glad this game exist !

Will play FF XV probably next year, only played the demo and not too sure of what to think of it.

 

[Yam's]

I honestly had more fun reading the novel bits than playing in LO (made it to the last disc and didn't even bother finishing it), so no. I enjoy FFXV's battle way more than I did on most j-rpg.

Turn-based can still be good, but they are rarely challenging (outside of super bosses) and they often feel too slow. Persona are good in that regard, but even a game from the same company like Tokyo Mirage Sessions felt like a chore to me near the mid of the game. LO was also way too slow for me to enjoy the battles.

 

[Glass Rebel]

I will always prefer a turn/menu-based combat system for games where you have a party. I like being in as much control as possible and a chaotic system isn't exciting to me. Luckily there's still developers that stick to it.

 

[bravoguy]

LO is a pure traditional type JRPG, FFXV have some modern days elements added up in it.

 

[GwyndolinCinder]

... Was Bravely Default something special ? Because it's a budget title not exactly in the same league as Lost Odyssey and FFXV.

If Bravely Default didn't had that awful second part maybe it could be a discussion but...

"Why we cant have nice things" the post.
BD systems were beautiful and like xenoblade it wasnt afraid to say "hey you know what, theres alot of shit in this genre"

 

[AzureFlame]

While i love the Action RPGs genre i don't think they replace the Turned based system.

 

[Haganeren]

"Why we cant have nice things" the post.
BD systems were beautiful and like xenoblade it wasnt afraid to say "hey you know what, theres alot of shit in this genre"

I dont understand what you want to say... Bravely Default wasn't afraid to say that there is a lot of shit in this genre ? .... Oook. You know, all that i said is that Bravely Default wasn't exactly a game changer and the fact it's a budget title for the 3DS mean that it was under the radar of a lot of person too... It doesn't mean the game is bad or that we shouldn't have "this nice thing".

But yeah,it definitely doesn't over shadow Lost Odyssey if this one cames out today.

Xenoblade may be a better answer... And even that is not exactly right, if Xenoblade overshadw Lost Odyssey "because there's is a lot of shit in this genre", whatever THAT mean. It overshadow by default all RPG made before Lost Odyssey... It just doesn't make sense...

 

[djtiesto]

LO was awesome, but the combat felt a bit sluggish - long load times and slowdowns between selecting menu options, coupled with high HP enemies. That being said, there was still plenty of opportunity for high-level strategy in the game, which I find missing in a lot of ARPGs I play. I'd definitely want a turn-based system in the next FF but maybe something a bit faster than LO (like Digital Devil Saga speed...).

Something where enemies spot me on the map (no screen transition), party quickly runs to position and a menu near-instantaneously pops up, would be perfect (CT-style battle transitions with the speed and tactical complexity of a MegaTen or a Bravely Default).

 

[The Dude]

I guess my issue is we have so many games that do real time combat just so much better, and we have series where real time combat were built from like kingdom hearts. That series was built upon real time combat, and that's great as that's what that series brought to the table.. But I look at final fantasy and I think why does it have to deviate so far from any type of turn based gaming. We get so many real time combat games, just like we get so many shooters... It's why I clamor for some more turn based combat systems, spice things up a little more

 

[YankeeDonB]

I liked LO a lot, but I'm also liking XV. Neither have great stories (barring 1000 years of dreams), but they both have interesting worlds and heart. I found the combat system in LO fairly blah compared to XII, XIII, and XV though. I still like turn based systems (e.g., Bravely Default), but I'm not wedded to it, certainly not for mainline games. If SE goes back to it I hope it's with significant tweaks.

 

[dezzy8]

If they announced a LO sequel, I would buy a xbone just for it.

 

[bomblord1]

As a long time fan of JRPG's I tried so hard to like Lost Odyssey I restarted it multiple times hoping to finish it but it just did not click with me.

I never could bring myself to like any of the characters. The early 360 look really brought down the presentation and sent me into the uncanny valley far too many times.

Battle system was only ok.

And the story just seemed to drag on without end without ever making a major development. On top of being incredibly convoluted. I got more enjoyment from reading the thousand years of dreams stories than I did the games story in disc 3

 

[Carlius]

LO is a gem of its own..i dont think random encounter rgps are the stuff now. i would not be able to handle random encounter stuff...

 

[ULTROS!]

From my experience, the best turn based battle system I've encountered is FFXIII and FFXIII-2's, despite the flak they get. I'd say why it's great is because they're both speedy and quick and let's be honest, no one wants a slow paced turn based game anymore unless it's for pure nostalgic purposes. What FFXIII's combat system also does right is that it's simple to understand but can get deep and complex if you go a bit hardcore. FFXV's combat heavily refines the "simple and complex" idea. Both systems from these games can cater the "casual" and "core" players

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

From my experience, the best turn based battle system I've encountered is FFXIII and FFXIII-2's, despite the flak they get. I'd say why it's great is because they're both speedy and quick and let's be honest, no one wants a slow paced turn based game anymore unless it's for pure nostalgic purposes. What FFXIII's combat system also does right is that it's simple to understand but can get deep and complex if you go a bit hardcore. FFXV's combat heavily refines the "simple and complex" idea. Both systems from these games can cater the "casual" and "core" players

I liked the paradigm system of XIII/XIII-2.

Also the trick to instantly refill the ATB bar was cool too and you could combo it with certain paradigm setups for good effect.

 

[YankeeDonB]

From my experience, the best turn based battle system I've encountered is FFXIII and FFXIII-2's, despite the flak they get. I'd say why it's great is because they're both speedy and quick and let's be honest, no one wants a slow paced turn based game anymore unless it's for pure nostalgic purposes. What FFXIII's combat system also does right is that it's simple to understand but can get deep and complex if you go a bit hardcore. FFXV's combat heavily refines the "simple and complex" idea. Both systems from these games can cater the "casual" and "core" players

If we're including ATB in entire based basket, I'd agree with you. Although X-2 gives them a real run for their money.

 

[Pezking]

Anyone else agree?

Yes, completely. LO shits all over every FF that came after IX.

 

[Omega Kirby]

Turn based genre also needs evolution. Something like Persona 5 or Ni No Kuni 2 is a good balance.

Persona 5's combat is the same as previous games with minor upgrades/improvements

And Ni No Kuni 2 isn't turned based

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

Yup this. Woff is fucking FANTASTIC. It's got that old school formula you're looking for.

I havent played the game yet, but I will. I'm sure you can see why this isnt quite satisfying those that are yearning for a high budget turn based game like the final fantasy of yore. The genre is completely left for quirky games and lower budget games.

Trails of Cold Steel 2 is EASILY my game of the year, but I'd kill for it to have a higher budget

 

[UpDownLeftRight]

LO wasn't what I'd want from RPG's going forwards to be honest. It has it's place as a nostalgia thing but levels limited by their camera angle just don't seem like something a modern blockbuster RPG should be aspiring for. Turn based is something that feels relegated to that now unfortunately too. The challenge would be making a turn based combat system that is engaging, reasonably fast paced and interesting to watch 20+ hours into the game.

I feel like LO also had a very slow battle system even for a turn based RPG. To be honest even the world and characters were largely uninteresting to me so I couldn't really rate it above XV for much other than having it's story presented better. I remember the kids were pretty close to making me stop due to being Infinite Undiscovery levels of bad.

I still think these games have a place though, I can't wait to get WoFF. I just don't think mainline FF should be going down that route unless they can create a turn based battle system that actually lives up to the term 'ground-breaking'.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

FF should be going down that route unless they can create a turn based battle system that actually lives up to the term 'ground-breaking'.

But theres nothing ground breaking about FFXV's combat

Watching FF switch genres was lame, but even lamer once I played the game and its not even good action. I play plenty of action RPGs and I always find the genre generally lacking compared to its pure action game counterparts. FFXV is worse than most in that regard. Turn Based RPGs have never gotten old though. I just put 180 hours over a month into both TOCS games, and the combat was phenomenal throughout, and there is plenty of room in the genre for new systems like Bravely Default

 

[GreenMonkey]

I don't like the modern JRPG systems at all. The whole control 1 character and everyone else runs around on autopilot stuff isn't very fun to me. I tolerated it for a big hunk of Xenoblade (still haven't finished it) and Star Ocean 'Til the End of Time, but never really liked it. I always played ATB games on Wait mode because I like the tactics piece.

So yeah, I'd be on board. But everyone just yells "turn based is ancient" so it's never gonna happen.

I loved Lost Odyssey except for the tedious Ring crafting /collecting piece. It felt like what FF games would have been in an alternate timeline, where they never chose to start aping MMO combat.

 

[Teppic]

I don't really like the Skyrim approach. Turn based is what I want. However I thought the regular battles took way too long to get through in lost Odyssey. Give me FFIV-VII style. Bosses can be long and require tactics. Normal battles should be quick affairs.

 

[Mister Wolf]

The action rpg mechanics are probably the best thing about it, it's the open world mission based structure that lets it down

I agree, I've decided I wont try to do everything with the game so I don't get burnt out with it. Gonna treat just like I did dragon age inquisition.

 

[Rising_Hei]

Lost Odyssey also felt flat, the last part of the game was a mess and the gameplay sucked. (imo).

So i wouldn't like that, i just wished they put more effort into making the story and tested the gameplay more

 

[The Dude]

As a long time fan of JRPG's I tried so hard to like Lost Odyssey I restarted it multiple times hoping to finish it but it just did not click with me.

I never could bring myself to like any of the characters. The early 360 look really brought down the presentation and sent me into the uncanny valley far too many times.

Battle system was only ok.

And the story just seemed to drag on without end without ever making a major development. On top of being incredibly convoluted. I got more enjoyment from reading the thousand years of dreams stories than I did the games story in disc 3

Not tryin to be combative, but it's hard to understand how a long time jrpg fan can't get into lost Odyssey, it's like virtually the perfect example of what a jrpg should be..maybe you're a fan of a few jrpgs, but I can't see a jrpg fan just disliking lost Odyssey

 

[Muffdraul]

I generally like FFXV for what it is, though the battle system is just way over the top. Ridiculously frenzied chaos, way too much movement, constantly. Think more like basketball zone defense or something. Six enemies running back and forth across the map over and over and breaking my target locks gets really annoying. A battle system a bit more like an evolution of FFXII's system (including gambits, goddammit) would be perfect IMO.

I liked LO, though I never finished it. Got to the final boss and just stopped for some reason. Anyway I'm just not really into back-pedaling that far back to something like that.

 

[Glass Rebel]

But theres nothing ground breaking about FFXV's combat

Watching FF switch genres was lame, but even lamer once I played the game and its not even good action. I play plenty of action RPGs and I always find the genre generally lacking compared to its pure action game counterparts. FFXV is worse than most in that regard. Turn Based RPGs have never gotten old though. I just put 180 hours over a month into both TOCS games, and the combat was phenomenal throughout, and there is plenty of room in the genre for new systems like Bravely Default

People generally lump every menu/turn based battle system together when in reality there's amazing variety and generally more significant differences between the various types.

 

[Clear]

Lost Odyssey also felt flat, the last part of the game was a mess and the gameplay sucked. (imo).

So i wouldn't like that, i just wished they put more effort into making the story and tested the gameplay more

That was my takeaway too. Especially after it became obvious to me that the various "dreams" were just interspersed as rewards for progress and had minimal bearing on the actual plot and characterizations within the main story.

My issues with LO weren't anything to do with is style or presentation, I just didn't think it ever rose above mediocre in its story and systems. Its just not very good, and the sad part is that I would have had the exact same reaction had it come out in 1999 - which to me was exactly what it felt like; an uninspired PSX era FF clone.

 

[Xero]

Not tryin to be combative, but it's hard to understand how a long time jrpg fan can't get into lost Odyssey, it's like virtually the perfect example of what a jrpg should be..maybe you're a fan of a few jrpgs, but I can't see a jrpg fan just disliking lost Odyssey

Lost odyssey has a lot of issues I completed it but it was still very mediocre to me and I am also a long time jrpg fan. I've beaten the lunars Lufia, techno secret of the stars, wild arms suikoden 1 and 2 tactics ogre luct radiant historia most star oceans all Valkyrie profiles all final fantasy's up to 10. (Didn't care for 10 or the direction the series was going in as 12 didn't appeal to me either) dragon quest 1-4 and 7 to name a few and lost odyssey didn't have a memorable story or characters for me. Combat was boring. The memory stories were fantastic though. So no it's not Every jrpg fans perfect game.

 

[spazchicken]

I just finished Tales of Xillia. It's probably my 6th Tales of game and I played every single one of them the same. Full auto combat. The AI, the game, plays itself. I just navigate through dungeons and towns to trigger cut scenes and battles.

Human involvement in that series is completely pointless for the most part. I feel like FFXV is no different. The AI does whatever they are going to do and off screen most of the time, so you don't even get to see it.

My favorite memories of RPG combat is playing that chess game against a powerful boss who is forcing you to decide between healing your party, bringing one person back from the dead or unleashing that ultra mega attack in order to get one step closer to defeating it.

Now it's just mashing (or in my case, checking my phone) while the AI plays the game for you.

Pros: The chaotic combat is pretty to look at and I do feel like the head coach of my own fighting squad that I trained.

But I can play an unfulfilling, bad action game anywhere. I don't need them in my RPGs.

 

[Justinh]

I love Lost Odyssey and Final Fantasy XV doesn't really look like something that I would've liked so I've just kinda been ignoring it, but no...

I wouldn't want FFXV to be like LO. I love that they're so different. Again, I'm just assuming from what I have seen of XV, but it looks unique to me as a JRPG (admittedly, I don't play many JRPGs) and I like that they're continuing to try new things with the Final Fantasy franchise.

I'd take a Lost Odyssey 2 in a friggen' half-heartbeat, though.

 

[EatinOlives]

I couldn't play more than 5 hours of LO so I'd say no on that one.

 

[bomblord1]

Not tryin to be combative, but it's hard to understand how a long time jrpg fan can't get into lost Odyssey, it's like virtually the perfect example of what a jrpg should be..maybe you're a fan of a few jrpgs, but I can't see a jrpg fan just disliking lost Odyssey

JRPG's to me are held up by 3 pillars.

1. Battle System
2. Characters
3. Story

One of these 2 can be lacking or even complete crap as long as the other 2 are strong or even just ok. Sadly lost Odyssey didn't seem to nail any of it. I never connected with a single character. Story just lost me multiple times and the battle system was just ok.

If your questioning my repetoire of pre-360 JRPG's I cant say I'm some aficionado as I have gaps even when considering the classics but I have definitely played quite a few.

Ar Tonelico, Dragon Quest VIII, Xenosaga 1 + 2, Lunar 1 + 2 (PS1 versions), FF7 ,10, 12, Tales of Symphonia, Baten Kaitos, Chrono Trigger, and Dark Cloud 1 + 2 are what I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

I agree.

FFXV feels like a poor mans Witcher 3.

I'm playing through both of these games right now. I'd say FFXV has better combat but Witcher 3 is superior in most other areas.

Don't really feel like one is a poor mans version of the other though. These games have a very different tone.

 

[Vismund Cygnus]

One line of thinking that I reject, however, is that turn-based combat is necessarily more slow or less "modern" than real-time combat. There is no hard and fast rule that suggests a turn-based system must be slow and methodical, or it must transition you into a separate battle screen, or any of the things that we typically associate with decades old turn based games. All turn-based means is that actions happen in turns -- everything else is fair game. I would love to see SE, or another company, innovate on turn-based combat in a way that hasn't been seen before, because frankly there is a ton of potential there.

Yes!! Exactly my thoughts!!

Just to remind some people, Chess is turn-based, and timeless as far as game-design is concerned. In fact, almost all games pale in comparison on strategic depth with Chess, so especially those people who hate the UI selection, complain about the UI, not the turn-based strategic design. It's the prime issue in my opinion.

 

[Gemeanie]

People generally lump every menu/turn based battle system together when in reality there's amazing variety and generally more significant differences between the various types.

But this thread is just FFXV vs LO, so naturally people're talking about LO's turn based battle system, no?

Personally it'd have been a harder choice for me if it's FFXV vs Megaten/Persona.


Irrelevant to the topic, but Roar of the Departed Souls is among my top few favourite JRPG final boss BGM.