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In An Apparent First, Police Used A Robot To Kill
- Thread starter Septimus Prime
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A glue bomb? Knockout gas? Do you get all your police tactics from Batman comics?
Real life isn't a videogame.
Or maybe not.
I mean, we are beyond the pale here.
SWAT is your Judge Dread and you will gladly defend that concept even if it goes against the constitution.
The idea that Dallas PD SWAT is judge, jury, and executioner is utter nonsense. Johnson wasn't some common criminal who surrendered, he was an active shooter who posed a threat to police and would continue to pose a threat to police if given the opportunity. IfJohnson had at some point during the four hours that he had continued to fire at police put down his gun and surrendered, he would have survived.
If Johnson had attempted to surrender but had been shot down by SWAT, that would be an unlawful execution. But that's not what happened.
TacticalHotdog
Member
Contrary to what video games might have you believe, flashbangs pretty much do jack shit in real life. They don't really blind/deafen someone unless it's very quiet on a dark night and whoever you're throwing it at doesn't expect it. They're more of a distraction device that's meant to throw someone off for a second or two
I'm pretty much okay with this.
"But we didn't do it 80 years ago", yeah, because we couldn't.
SWAT already has impressive weaponry. I really don't see how a small, slow, bomb-armed robot is comparable to the literal tanks they get off the military surplus.
"But we didn't do it 80 years ago", yeah, because we couldn't.
SWAT already has impressive weaponry. I really don't see how a small, slow, bomb-armed robot is comparable to the literal tanks they get off the military surplus.
The emotions riding high in this thread - I don't think it's the time to have a conversation of the legality of such an issue. You might be okay with this case, but if later adapted to flying drones dropping shit on your heads as a normal means of resolving a situation, I'm sure you'd think twice about condoning such behavior. Especially in light of how quickly cops tend to escalate situations.
Nealand Liquor
Member
Unless the robot was completely self automated, can choose its target and detonate an explosive at its discretion, I don't see how it is any different than any other delivery system out there. There was a human controlling it was there not? Is it really any different than a rifle?
If you allow your police to kill, then you've already pretty much allowed them to kill with any method they deem fit. But this is also why bombing people has been renamed to "drone strikes" to soften the image of using them.
Bomb robots always have had explosives on them. Most bomb 'defusals' are actually blowing up the bomb itself (basically trading down to a smaller explosion instead of a potentially bigger one)
Either way, this needs huge oversight or outright banning. A defusal robot will now be seen the same as if the cops suddenly opened fire on someone, and they may have lost a tool for negotiation position here for a very long time.
Depending on how long he was in the service he was trained to counter both of those.
Unless you're some freak of nature you can't "counter" "real" tear gas, especially in a confined environment where it can't escape.
The tear gas you use in training is a very weak watered down version compared to what you're using live.
I'm assuming they were too scared that he'd come running out gunning or something.
As a couple already have pointed out though, flashbangs are really unreliable and I understand why they didn't use it in this specific situation for sure. It's a high risk thing to do and it's usually only used in situations where collateral damage is a real threat like hostages.
Edit: Alright if he had a gas mask it obviously wouldn't work, but I'm not sure we know if he had or not.
I'm assuming he could have had a mask if he came rolling in with the gun and ammunition he was using. They probably did too.
yeah that's what i meant. need a mask to counter it.
The Faceless Master
Member
jakonovski
Member
Sets quite the precedent, and not for the benefit of American citizens. I'm also a bit amazed at all the apparent jadedness to these outlandish levels of violence.
maquiladora
Member
It's fucked up and creates a dangerous precedent. I refuse to believe that was the only option available.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Obviously not defending this murderer, but yeah, if they could do this, why was lethal force necessary? Was there no way of incapacitating him without killing him? If there was, but the police instead chose to sentence him to death on the spot without a trial, is that really right? Obviously people like this should be killed if they're an immediate thread to other people, but if they're not (and I don't think he was at this point?) they shouldn't just be executed. Right?
But yeah, if he was armored up enough that they thought nothing else would work, then good job.
But yeah, if he was armored up enough that they thought nothing else would work, then good job.
This entire situation was horrible and this was, most likely the best option they had available to keep people safe.
What I don't understand however is how the man managed to have so much ammo to last out a 5 hour standoff and still have bullets to fire. Is there no sort of register of how much ammo you're allowed to buy and keep at one time? Also, how did he carry it all?
What I don't understand however is how the man managed to have so much ammo to last out a 5 hour standoff and still have bullets to fire. Is there no sort of register of how much ammo you're allowed to buy and keep at one time? Also, how did he carry it all?
Perfectly ok with the decision
They tried to talk him down despite the fact he already killed 2 officer's
He started to.fire st them at them again when that failed.
If you stayed up that night you went through a sliver of the emotion of it All. That sigh of relief that it was finally over, it's a great feeling. That's the difference between that night and the days following. That night people were showing compassion towards the dead officers, the Dallas police force as a whole who partook in a peaceful protest and everyone rode through this tragedy together.
Then the next morning you had the "it's abuse of power, why didn't they taze him / cops got what they deserved" crowd who were not in the the thread while it was going on, who didn't see the danger this guy was live when he outflanked police and executed them.
There was no need to sacrifice anymore officers. This was the best possible solution and it saved lives and finally let the rest of the city start the mourning process. A city that didn't deserve this to happen to them.
They tried to talk him down despite the fact he already killed 2 officer's
He started to.fire st them at them again when that failed.
If you stayed up that night you went through a sliver of the emotion of it All. That sigh of relief that it was finally over, it's a great feeling. That's the difference between that night and the days following. That night people were showing compassion towards the dead officers, the Dallas police force as a whole who partook in a peaceful protest and everyone rode through this tragedy together.
Then the next morning you had the "it's abuse of power, why didn't they taze him / cops got what they deserved" crowd who were not in the the thread while it was going on, who didn't see the danger this guy was live when he outflanked police and executed them.
There was no need to sacrifice anymore officers. This was the best possible solution and it saved lives and finally let the rest of the city start the mourning process. A city that didn't deserve this to happen to them.
He would've needed to carry it in like a duffel bag.
Generally if you're wearing a combat vest it would allow you to carry 300-500 rounds of ammunition without bulking up too much.
Also I imagine he didn't constantly fire you 5 hours straight, but just here and there to let them know he weren't gonna cooperate.
There's no known method of remotely incapacitating someone that can't potentially kill them.
Any gas that knocks someone out can suffocate them from stopping their breathing reflex or making it too shallow. Same with a tranquilizer.
Physically knocking someone out, as overused in TV shows/movies as a base level action, actually also has the potential to kill and/or cause irreversible brain damage.
Shooting someone in the legs and arm can cause a bleedout in minutes.
I personally prefer everyone being brought in alive, but the nonlethal methods of dealing someone without potentially killing them are very narrow.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
But here they didn't even try a potentially non-lethal method, they went straight for the kill. Which maybe they had to, I don't know the details of the situation.
The future of law enforcement.
Didnt the new ones of these in the remake explode too?
But they didn't go straight for the kill, they tried and tried and tried to take him in alive and he wasn't having it. How many more human lives, of officers sworn to protect you would you let die before he was taken in alive. Honestly? What's an ok number to you because the number is zero to me.
From what I can tell at this point, they didn't go straight for it.
Also, flashbangs can set people on fire. Forgot about that one. The police have killed people by burning them alive in the house they're inside with flashbangs igniting a blaze, multiple times recently.
I wish I could've had it like the cops when I was deployed.
Lets not take any chances and just blow people away, instead we had to put ourselves in harms way to get shit done.
It's fucking crazy to think about we had stricter rules of engagement in a warzone than cops have in civilian settings..
TheRedSnifit
Member
One mass murderer is worth fifteen cops, obviously.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Seems that anyone who doesn't have a problem with this only considers this as an isolated incident, not within a greater context. It absolutely sets a precedent. It being coupled with people pushing for actual drones to use on domestic soil is disconcerting at best.
This taking place in a country where police officers have just inarguably executed people on camera and have a decent chance of getting off scott-free is the real kicker for me. It happened in a country where if a strike team carries out a raid on the wrong house due to bad intel, the person inside can be punished for shooting at their attackers while the ones actually responsible for the situation aren't reprimanded.
Considering how many dangerous and deadly mistakes U.S. police make on a daily basis, using unprecedented deadly and, more importantly, impersonal force should be met with much more scrutiny. The focus should be on how to deescalate and prevent situations like this from ever getting even close to this point.
This taking place in a country where police officers have just inarguably executed people on camera and have a decent chance of getting off scott-free is the real kicker for me. It happened in a country where if a strike team carries out a raid on the wrong house due to bad intel, the person inside can be punished for shooting at their attackers while the ones actually responsible for the situation aren't reprimanded.
Considering how many dangerous and deadly mistakes U.S. police make on a daily basis, using unprecedented deadly and, more importantly, impersonal force should be met with much more scrutiny. The focus should be on how to deescalate and prevent situations like this from ever getting even close to this point.
That is crazy to think about.
TheRedSnifit
Member
This reeks of some sort of "play fair" attitude. You know full well that the odds of this guy surrendering were about zero percent, yet the police should've rushed at him because some random GAFfer didn't have better options available when he was in the military.
Imperfected
Member
I want to take a minute here to express proper appreciation for how amazing the Dallas PD was throughout this, robo-assassins aside.
I don't think people fully appreciate the fact that in a situation where police officers were actively being killed by (at the time) an unknown number of shooters from unknown positions, that no innocent civilians were killed by police, despite the fact that by most accounts there were upwards of twenty(!) people in the area running in scattered directions who were in various degrees of body armor/militant cosplay with rifles, to say nothing of the general confusion of a large crowd scattering under small arms fire.
The fact we don't have a half-dozen innocent (if idiotic) civilians dead is a testament to the absurd level of discipline displayed by these officers. In a time where we have unarmed people getting shot in routine traffic stops, these police officers who were being shot by sniper fire didn't open fire on extremely suspicious individuals armed with rifles.
That's absolutely amazing, and frankly it causes me to give them quite a bit of benefit of the doubt in terms of how they dealt with the shooter at the end of the day.
I don't think people fully appreciate the fact that in a situation where police officers were actively being killed by (at the time) an unknown number of shooters from unknown positions, that no innocent civilians were killed by police, despite the fact that by most accounts there were upwards of twenty(!) people in the area running in scattered directions who were in various degrees of body armor/militant cosplay with rifles, to say nothing of the general confusion of a large crowd scattering under small arms fire.
The fact we don't have a half-dozen innocent (if idiotic) civilians dead is a testament to the absurd level of discipline displayed by these officers. In a time where we have unarmed people getting shot in routine traffic stops, these police officers who were being shot by sniper fire didn't open fire on extremely suspicious individuals armed with rifles.
That's absolutely amazing, and frankly it causes me to give them quite a bit of benefit of the doubt in terms of how they dealt with the shooter at the end of the day.
This has nothing to do with "playing fair".
This is about what belongs in a war zone, and what belongs in civil society.
You don't think at the very least why it's curious that they chose to bomb the perp away? I've literally never heard of a civilized police force doing that against any criminal in recent modern history.
This is unprecedented.
Spring-Loaded
Member
This is the best reasoning for widespread, comprehensive reform for gun legislation I've seen.
I do want to ask though: how exactly were those civilians "idiotic"?
They did put themselves in harm's way, for like 5 hours
They didn't run away they ran towards the danger.
They tried to negotiate with him for hours while being shot at...they didn't just blow him away
They should have just blown him away sooner, once you kill officers you signed your death warrant. Once you open fire where there hundreds of innocent civilians, you signed your death warrant.
Probably because a cop on the force returned from a tour over seas and suggested a strategy they used there. Are we really defending the rights of killers and criminals now?
I don't give a shit about this particular individual, in fact he got what he deserved.
I'm concerned about militarization of the police, and using explosives is a clear escalation.
I don't mean this as a position at all in the wider debate, but some of our oldest civil rights as a society (right to a fair trial) are in respect of the rights of killers and criminals...so it's not exactly unprecedented.
Dallas PD handled this situation impressively on multiple accounts minus the quick jump on twitter they had - but I see no problems with this small explosive charge.
They used hours to try and talk him down (while being constantly under gunfire), after he already killed and injured their friends and put every civilian there in danger so the police did what they had to do to protect us and them from a heavily armed and trained mad man.
The fact they used a small controlled detonation charge to eliminate the threat, is a non-issue.
They used hours to try and talk him down (while being constantly under gunfire), after he already killed and injured their friends and put every civilian there in danger so the police did what they had to do to protect us and them from a heavily armed and trained mad man.
The fact they used a small controlled detonation charge to eliminate the threat, is a non-issue.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Reminds me of this story.
Uh ... we still (are supposed to) treat killers and criminals like human beings, yes
Especially considering it's not always killers/criminals who are on the receiving end of police procedure.
Are you talking about them tweeting a picture of an innocent person, saying they were a suspect? If so, how would you see no problems with that?
And as an isolated incident, the remote explosion is a non-issue. But that act can't exist in a vacuum, so it's not truly isolated.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
"Rights of killers and criminals" is why we have a justice system.
Imperfected
Member
Running around in body armor, ammo pouches, and carrying an assault rifle in urban Dallas might not be illegal in Texas, but it's still completely moronic.
If it wasn't clear, I'm referring specifically to the persons of interest who had to be pursued and questioned by police because they fit the above description and were in the combat area, not protestors or even people who were carrying weapons they could keep holstered so as not to present themselves as being involved/a threat.
I'm talking about the fact that the never took the tweet down and news as a result kept blasting him as the suspect even when he was cleared of wrong doing. Even after he was cleared by Dallas PD he kept getting death threats.
They handled it poorly with that guy. So yes, I do have a problem with that, but not with the small charge they set, poorly wording on my part. Edited above to make it more clear.
cloud_sleep
Member
I say we send in a bomb droid and blow him up. It's the only way to be sure.
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