Support NeoGAF

[leeh]

Lewie's a cynical guy but never really comes at these things from a place of malice at all, peoples responses to him are a bit weird really.

as far as my opinion changing I'd say the good and bad is much the same, the ID@XBox program is still leagues better than whatever non system they had before it existed, and the folks involved are pretty incredible (Chris Charla is as legitimate a person as you will ever find and I mean that in the best way possible). It still has its own set of requirements as you might expect from a platform.

I'm glad the devs quoted in the OP are having a great time working with them, I've never been opposed to the program or the platform, there were just particular limitations that meant we committed to other platforms and then those platforms ended up being very complicated/time consuming for too many reasons to get in to.

We did enroll in the ID@XBox program a long time ago (Though well into Cactus dev as it didn't exist at the start) and I'm not too sure what is/isn't NDA'd so I'll leave it at that.



There are easily a thousand reasons why you might not see even a fraction of those games release on XBox One, and none of them are "Chris Charla lied".

ID@Xbox required you to release for different platforms? As in, for PC or non MS platforms?

Sorry, but if you're releasing a indie title in 2017 and you don't architect it in a way that makes it easily scalable to all input methods and screen sizes, then you're setting yourself up for failure.

 

[SuperMega]

We were last week in Madrid with Tequila and Sumo Digital on the ID@Xbox meeting talking about Scorpio and the current market.
Microsoft has been awesome with us and our game (Rise & Shine) during the whole development cycle. They took us to E3 (twice), gave us devkits for free and helped us a ton with advice on launch and shop placement.
Very happy with our whole realationship with them.

 

[Maximus P]

We were last week in Madrid with Tequila and Sumo Digital on the ID@Xbox meeting talking about Scorpio and the current market.
Microsoft has been awesome with us and our game (Rise & Shine) during the whole development cycle. They took us to E3 (twice), gave us devkits for free and helped us a ton with advice on launch and shop placement.
Very happy with our whole realationship with them.

This is great to hear.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Paz]

ID@Xbox required you to release for different platforms? As in, for PC or non MS platforms?

Sorry, but if you're releasing a indie title in 2017 and you don't architect it in a way that makes it easily scalable to all input methods and screen sizes, then you're setting yourself up for failure.

I dunno how you got any of that from my post but that's not at all what I was saying.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Not really a good sample.

It's only devs on the program, I'd be interested to hear from developers that MS rejected. Especially given that everyone on the program signed an NDA, where they likely agreed not to criticize the elements of the program that they don't like (such as the release date parity clause which still exists).

I don't think MS rejects anyone.

Even I registered as an ID@Xbox developer. Simply on a design document.

 

[leeh]

I dunno how you got any of that from my post but that's not at all what I was saying.

The only thing you stated was that ID@Xbox made you commit to other platforms which has caused large complications. The complications I presumed, but I can't think to what else it'd be.

 

[Paz]

The only thing you stated was that ID@Xbox made you commit to other platforms which has caused large complications. The complications I presumed, but I can't think to what else it'd be.

My game is released for PC, PS4, and announced for Vita and Wii U, those are the platforms I meant we committed to.

I was replying to someone who was specifically asking for my opinion and linking to an old article about me and my game, so the context is important for understanding the comments. The complications bit is simply me explaining that those platforms have taken a lot of our time and attention.

 

[Strootman]

We were last week in Madrid with Tequila and Sumo Digital on the ID@Xbox meeting talking about Scorpio and the current market.
Microsoft has been awesome with us and our game (Rise & Shine) during the whole development cycle. They took us to E3 (twice), gave us devkits for free and helped us a ton with advice on launch and shop placement.
Very happy with our whole realationship with them.

Stop with PR.

 

[leeh]

My game is released for PC, PS4, and announced for Vita and Wii U, those are the platforms I meant we committed to.

I was replying to someone who was specifically asking for my opinion and linking to an old article about me and my game, so the context is important for understanding the comments. The complications bit is simply me explaining that those platforms have taken a lot of our time and attention.

I'm lost. So you're not criticising the programme?

 

[Paz]

I'm lost. So you're not criticising the programme?

I made a nuanced comment in relation to someone asking me how I felt years after an old interview.

I won't boil it down to criticize/not criticize.

 

[Conduit]

There are easily a thousand reasons why you might not see even a fraction of those games release on XBox One, and none of them are "Chris Charla lied".

And why Chris said "over 1000 games are in development for Xbox One" if tiny fraction of games will be released for Xbone? That's straight up PR brainwashing.

 

[brawly]

We were last week in Madrid with Tequila and Sumo Digital on the ID@Xbox meeting talking about Scorpio and the current market.
Microsoft has been awesome with us and our game (Rise & Shine) during the whole development cycle. They took us to E3 (twice), gave us devkits for free and helped us a ton with advice on launch and shop placement.
Very happy with our whole realationship with them.

Can't wait for R&S!

 

[Thats a Greay Area]

Can't wait for R&S!

Game's been out for a few weeks now.

 

[STEaMkb]

We were last week in Madrid with Tequila and Sumo Digital on the ID@Xbox meeting talking about Scorpio and the current market.
Microsoft has been awesome with us and our game (Rise & Shine) during the whole development cycle. They took us to E3 (twice), gave us devkits for free and helped us a ton with advice on launch and shop placement.

You had a 1 month 'timed' exclsuivity deal with Microsoft, correct? Do you mind sharing how such deals are negotiated? A lot of people find this kind of thing interesting.

 

[nekkid]

Lewie's a cynical guy but never really comes at these things from a place of malice at all, peoples responses to him are a bit weird really.

It's the pattern of hunting for any negatives in every MS thread that's the issue, not just this one comment. Any time he can't find the negative he keeps quiet.

He probably doesn't even realise he's doing it.

 

[gaming_noob]

New thread material? (I'm on the road)

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-xbox-fans-inspired-fan-centric-culture-microsoft-yusuf-mehdi

Surprisingly good read. If this is coming from Mehdi then I have high hopes for this e3. He acknowledges their always online/early plans of Xbone and, at l least in words, understands the importance of delivering on content over meeting deadlines.

 

[Unreal Champ]

And why Chris said "over 1000 games are in development for Xbox One" if tiny fraction of games will be released for Xbone? That's straight up PR brainwashing.

You don't know anything about game development, stay out of the thread.

 

[HeisenbergWW62]

Cool to hear

 

[nekkid]

New thread material? (I'm on the road)

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-xbox-fans-inspired-fan-centric-culture-microsoft-yusuf-mehdi

Surprisingly good read. If this is coming from Mehdi then I have high hopes for this e3. He acknowledges their always online/early plans of Xbone and, at l least in words, understands the importance of delivering on content over meeting deadlines.

That was a good read. This is the first time I've heard someone from Microsoft acknowledge it so openly. I guess enough time has passed for it to not be a problem anymore.

It sounded very sincere.

 

[Asd202]

Where is Below?

Wait that game never came out? WTF.

 

[gamz]

New thread material? (I'm on the road)

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-xbox-fans-inspired-fan-centric-culture-microsoft-yusuf-mehdi

Surprisingly good read. If this is coming from Mehdi then I have high hopes for this e3. He acknowledges their always online/early plans of Xbone and, at l least in words, understands the importance of delivering on content over meeting deadlines.

Great read. They've also done a great job with their Surface line. People are excited about hardware coming from MS.

 

[Tesser]

I think Microsoft are now in the same position Nintendo were in around a year ago. Granted, Nintendo aren't completely out of the red just yet - and we'll have to see how the Switch's first year/18 months will fair from a fully "indie dev" perspective - but it's about time Microsoft recognise the relevance, not to mention the good PR, this kind of thing will provide.

Sure, smaller indie titles won't exactly have consumers go out and buy Xbox's in their hundreds of thousands and the profit margins potentially won't be as grand as a Halo or a Forza will...and while I can understand the decision against from a purely business stand-point, Microsoft really do need some good positive news around about now. We're about to enter the company's own mid-cycle "refresh" with Scorpio and while it's obvious they'll use the big major 1st/2nd/3rd party AAA's to help push the hardware, from a software/catalog perspective, Xbox really does need to convince people about its support for smaller studios and the type of indie games that make PC a great platform, that have made PS4 a viable platform, that are starting to make the Switch a potentially good platform...and now need to do the same for Xbox.

The recent indie-only Direct was a good move by Nintendo and from the looks of it, I think they're starting to see the error of their Wii U days (but I could of course be completely wrong there). Microsoft need to take a page from both Nintendo and indeed Sony's books and realise that Xbox is - and should be - about more than just Halo/Gears/Forza. Great that stuff like State of Decay & Sea of Thieves is there for those that are interested, but Xbox needs to keep on at convincing us they see the great potential in supporting the indie community. And I'm not just talking about copying things like Early Access and giving it a shiny, slick Xbox branding; ID@Xbox like a lot of things has potential. I want to enjoy Xbox as a hub just as much as I enjoy a Sony-owned or Nintendo-owned community of hardware/software. But so far there's been very little to convince me Microsoft are not just expanding, but learning where their greatest pitfalls may be.

 

[LiquidSolid]

Where is Below?

It was a UK ID@Xbox preview event, why would a Canadian developer attend?

 

[RedSparrows]

There were tons of more indie games on Xbox 360 though. Is there a reason why neither Xbox Live Arcade or the closed Xbox Live Indie Games self-publishing thingy hasn't arrived on Xbox One? I mean we hear all this prase but we're 3 years in on this generation and Xbox One is still a wasteland when it comes to indies.

Is it? There are at minimum several games released a week. They range in quality from The Witness to My First 2D Platfotmer Clone.

I have bought dozens of them.

 

[spekkeh]

It's nice that they get a free development kit upfront, but it would be better if they actually got paid the money they're due for the game sales afterwards. How's that faring?

 

[superNESjoe]

I'm involved with ID@Xbox and I think they've been a phenomenal partner. I can only say so much, but I can tell you that the narrative the internet has adopted about the big console manufacturers and their approach to indies is not even remotely true in the real world.

ID@Xbox may have been my most painless and open-armed experience of them all. Amazing partners. Been with them since 2014.

It's nice that they get a free development kit upfront, but it would be better if they actually got paid the money they're due for the game sales afterwards. How's that faring?

What are you talking about?

 

[spekkeh]

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=944494

Ah apparently that was the precursor, I remember it going on for a very long time though.

 

[nekkid]

I'm involved with ID@Xbox and I think they've been a phenomenal partner. I can only say so much, but I can tell you that the narrative the internet has adopted about the big console manufacturers and their approach to indies is not even remotely true in the real world.

ID@Xbox may have been my most painless and open-armed experience of them all. Amazing partners. Been with them since 2014.

Good to hear. Hopefully this silences the unwarranted pessimism.

Spoiler

I doubt it.

 

[spannicus]

There will always be pessimism in Gaf Microsoft threads..

 

[Flintty]

What's bullshit about wanting to hear from other sources especially when the restrictions were well publicised? Nothing wrong with getting other info from people not a part of the program. Seriously get a grip.

Wanting to hear from different sources is fine but the post I quoted looked suspiciously like "they're saying this cos that have to and people can't say bad things cos NDA" which sounds barking. Maybe I read the post wrong, I'd just got up 😒

 

[gschmidl]

They are.

It is not?

OT says:

[...] with Sumo Digital's designer and PR analyst David Dino saying that the opportunity to obtain a free Xbox One development kit is vital for helping developers get their ideas out into the open [...] Just allowing people to have dev kits when they don't necessarily have the funds to purchase something like that [...]

Unless I'm misunderstanding, that means you can develop for the new XBLIG with any console, but not for ID@Xbox?

 

[nekkid]

OT says:

Unless I'm misunderstanding, that means you can develop for the new XBLIG with any console, but not for ID@Xbox?

My understanding is that you can use any console to develop on, you just have to be signed up to ID@Xbox to allow it.

 

[Lazaro]

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=944494

Ah apparently that was the precursor, I remember it going on for a very long time though.

I think it used to be a problem before id@Xbox became established, I remember the Skulls of the Shogun devs saying they had to take a loan because the funding from Microsoft didn't arrive on time. Here's the article I remember reading.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/06/20/the-sorry-saga-of-skulls-of-the-shogun-windows-8/

 

[Thats a Greay Area]

There were tons of more indie games on Xbox 360 though. Is there a reason why neither Xbox Live Arcade or the closed Xbox Live Indie Games self-publishing thingy hasn't arrived on Xbox One? I mean we hear all this prase but we're 3 years in on this generation and Xbox One is still a wasteland when it comes to indies.

What are you basing this on?

 

[W.S.]

There were tons of more indie games on Xbox 360 though. Is there a reason why neither Xbox Live Arcade or the closed Xbox Live Indie Games self-publishing thingy hasn't arrived on Xbox One? I mean we hear all this prase but we're 3 years in on this generation and Xbox One is still a wasteland when it comes to indies.

It is definitely not a wasteland when it comes to indy's on XBL. Some might be good and some might be bad but they release in a abundance. Heck I buy several of them every week.

I think the biggest red flag is no Devolver Digital still not releasing on Xbox One (with a couple of exceptions). That speaks louder than the devs who are on ID@Xbox saying they are happy with it (which yes is obviously a good thing, but should be considered in the correct context).

Doesn't Devolver Digital have a partnership with Sony?

 

[Conduit]

What are you basing this on?

Maybe when you compare weekly releases on XBL and PSN.

 

[Fredrik]

What are you basing this on?

Reality? Compare it to Xbox 360, the difference is night and day. If the indie situation is so much better now, why aren't we also seeing more tiny €1 games now?

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

That's great to hear. Such a turnaround from when it launched.

 

[Granjinha]

Nice edit because i added "half of that"? LOL. Yes, that news "over 1000 games for Xbone" is from January this year. I'm sure that 2 year of development for an indie game ( especially if indie studio has decent number of developers ) is enough time. And also, Xbone will be near end of lifecycle.

well then clearly you don't know a lot about game development and how it works

I'd prefer "skeptical" to "cynical".

I think the biggest red flag is no Devolver Digital still not releasing on Xbox One (with a couple of exceptions). That speaks louder than the devs who are on ID@Xbox saying they are happy with it (which yes is obviously a good thing, but should be considered in the correct context).

Edit: and I'd agree Chris seems to be doing a great job, and my sense is that any problems with the program are either on details that are mandated from above, or just because there are a lot of indie devs and it's hard for any platform holder to tackle those challenges on a global scale.

what are you talking about?

Absolver and RUINER (devolver biggest titles that are coming this year) are both coming out on Xbox One. Stuff like Eitr isn't because of manpower.

If you look at it like that, most of Devolver's line-up this year is actually coming to PC only (first, at least). Does that mean their relationship with sony is damaged? Of course not.

 

[rokkerkory]

New thread material? (I'm on the road)

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-xbox-fans-inspired-fan-centric-culture-microsoft-yusuf-mehdi

Surprisingly good read. If this is coming from Mehdi then I have high hopes for this e3. He acknowledges their always online/early plans of Xbone and, at l least in words, understands the importance of delivering on content over meeting deadlines.

Awesomer read yes new thread needed

 

[RedSparrows]

Reality? Compare it to Xbox 360, the difference is night and day. If the indie situation is so much better now, why aren't we also seeing more tiny €1 games now?

Whilst there isn't XBLIG, although that is sort of returning, calling it a wasteland is nonsense.

 

[Fredrik]

Whilst there isn't XBLIG, although that is sort of returning, calling it a wasteland is nonsense.

In comparison to 360, yeah it is. I didn't know that XBLIG is returning though, that should turn things around.

 

[Ridley327]

Doesn't Devolver Digital have a partnership with Sony?

They're going to be publishing games on the Switch, so unless there was some weird legalese that Devolver took advantage of, it would be fairly safe to assume that any exclusivity period is at an end.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

There were tons of more indie games on Xbox 360 though. Is there a reason why neither Xbox Live Arcade or the closed Xbox Live Indie Games self-publishing thingy hasn't arrived on Xbox One? I mean we hear all this prase but we're 3 years in on this generation and Xbox One is still a wasteland when it comes to indies.

A wasteland? LOL

And that indie games thing is coming...
http://www.theverge.com/2017/3/1/14784684/microsoft-xbox-one-windows-10-indie-game-development

I'd prefer "skeptical" to "cynical".

I think the biggest red flag is no Devolver Digital still not releasing on Xbox One (with a couple of exceptions). That speaks louder than the devs who are on ID@Xbox saying they are happy with it (which yes is obviously a good thing, but should be considered in the correct context).

Edit: and I'd agree Chris seems to be doing a great job, and my sense is that any problems with the program are either on details that are mandated from above, or just because there are a lot of indie devs and it's hard for any platform holder to tackle those challenges on a global scale.

Enter the Gungeon was rated a few weeks back and they already announced Ruiner is coming, even as a Play Anywhere title. Soooooooo...

 

[Bsigg12]

New thread material? (I'm on the road)

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-xbox-fans-inspired-fan-centric-culture-microsoft-yusuf-mehdi

Surprisingly good read. If this is coming from Mehdi then I have high hopes for this e3. He acknowledges their always online/early plans of Xbone and, at l least in words, understands the importance of delivering on content over meeting deadlines.

I read this last night. It's nice to see they have recognized what put them in the position they're in now and making sure to course correct when possible to continue growing.

As to how this relates inside this topic, ID@Xbox sounds like it has been given a ton of room to grow which is great and hopefully they can continue to build the relationships with devs to keep these great games coming.

 

[sirap]

Good, happy to see indie devs get support. We need more games to fill the gaps between AAA launches and the quality of indie games this past few years have been amazing.

 

[SapientWolf]

Lol what? 🤦🏻*♂️

This is good news and a massive turn around for MS and their previous stupid ID policy. Don't try and muddy it with your bullshit.

Indie visibility and promoting on the Xbox platform is way down compared to last gen, and so is funding. Good communication is just a normal part of doing business. They shouldn't get credit for doing shit they're supposed to do.

And people need to hear the good with the bad to get a full picture of what's going on. Their parity policy only hurts the small indies, since the big titles get exceptions.

 

[Justinh]

New thread material? (I'm on the road)

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-xbox-fans-inspired-fan-centric-culture-microsoft-yusuf-mehdi

Surprisingly good read. If this is coming from Mehdi then I have high hopes for this e3. He acknowledges their always online/early plans of Xbone and, at l least in words, understands the importance of delivering on content over meeting deadlines.

Looks interesting. Thanks for posting it, gonna check it out in a minute (after I make a hamburger).

It'll take me a bit to dig up, but I remember sometime last year the devs of Cuphead (I think? It was either them or the guys doing Below) saying something like that Microsoft was always there when they needed them but didn't get in their way other times. That might be saying something seeing as I remember it coming from one of those two devs, lol, but I thought it was good that they were saying that they weren't getting up in their faces all the time like apparently what happened with Scalebound and what sounded like what happened during Lost Odyssey from that long ass (friggen great) oral history of Final Fantasy 7 article from Polygon.

I think I found it, but it's an 11 minute long video. Lemme make sure... nope! wait one
I can't find it. I saw that Mad Fellows said pretty much the same thing in OP, I just remember the Cuphead guys saying the same thing a year ago.

 

[mrklaw]

Lol what? 🤦🏻*♂️

This is good news and a massive turn around for MS and their previous stupid ID policy. Don't try and muddy it with your bullshit.

developers at an MS sponsored developer event saying positive things doesn't mean there is any big turnaround from before. There might be - there might not be. Likely that particular area is neatly covered by NDA.

 

[qko]

I thought every Xbox One was a devkit

Lol, so you're saying they were sent a free Xbox One because they never bothered to try and develop of it in the first place?