So you are going to come back here and back this statement up, admit a fault in your shitty logic or just continue to driveby after you flung shit everywhere?
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Is the Pokémon "Are you a boy or girl?" thing outdated?
- Thread starter Flowmoney
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So you are going to come back here and back this statement up, admit a fault in your shitty logic or just continue to driveby after you flung shit everywhere?
A Link to the Past
Banned
So to clarify, you would respond to someone who viewed black people as being 3/5 of a human by noting that it's just their opinion, man?
This is usually because within the first 10 posts of this thread there has already been hostility at the idea, the very notion of a possibility that hey, maybe pokemon could do this 1 thing to make it a little bit more inclusive.
I've read pretty much every single post in this topic and I have something to add.
First:
There are many cases of people misunderstanding others.
The initial question was "is the thing outdated". A lot of people respond to this question with a "No", and are then met with a strong response claiming they are uneducated and hateful; seemingly because their response is interpreted as: "I don't believe there are more than 2 genders". In reality, many (not all) of these people are just answering the outdated-question, and use almost all other games being the same as basis (for it not being -outdated-).
Second:
There are also many people that not only answer the question with "No", but also state they don't see how there can be more than a binary response to this. In many of these cases these people are referring to sexes, not genders. They might simply not know the difference or maybe believe the question itself asks about the physical sex, not gender.
Third:
The posts not agreeing with OP in different ways are sometimes but not always hateful in intent, but the responses to these posts are often met with a great amount of vitriol. It's understandable if people are offended, but it is not productive. This is an internet discussion forum. When people are met with harsh criticism and called out as being hateful and uneducated they will rarely read the details of the arguments; most people will instead flame away themselves, or leave the thread with a fueled sense of exclusion and be less sympathetic, and less likely to change their opinion regarding the same topic in the future.
Fourth:
A common exchange in this thread is the "No I think it's fine"-post, then being met by the "Why is it a problem for you that there is another option, that you can just ignore".
I believe the most common reason people say "it's fine" is not because they want to begrudge a part of the population of an option just for the sake of it; but because it asks a more fundamental question about human identity. Many people are not ready to accept more than 2 genders existing, and that this question being binary would be a problem is just as weird to them as if someone stated that the question "How many functioning eyes do you have, 0, 1, 2?" would need more than those 3 responses to not be offensive or uninclusive. Note: I'm not in any way personally claiming that these questions are in any way even remotely similar in any shape of form at all.
Fifth:
It is pointless from both sides to just say that the other side is "absurd" or "unfathomable", or that there is "no way anyone can even ...". Obviously there are a lot of opinions on this. It isn't simple. You, reading this, you might think it is simple and totally f**ing obvious, but evidently it isn't.
First:
There are many cases of people misunderstanding others.
The initial question was "is the thing outdated". A lot of people respond to this question with a "No", and are then met with a strong response claiming they are uneducated and hateful; seemingly because their response is interpreted as: "I don't believe there are more than 2 genders". In reality, many (not all) of these people are just answering the outdated-question, and use almost all other games being the same as basis (for it not being -outdated-).
Second:
There are also many people that not only answer the question with "No", but also state they don't see how there can be more than a binary response to this. In many of these cases these people are referring to sexes, not genders. They might simply not know the difference or maybe believe the question itself asks about the physical sex, not gender.
Third:
The posts not agreeing with OP in different ways are sometimes but not always hateful in intent, but the responses to these posts are often met with a great amount of vitriol. It's understandable if people are offended, but it is not productive. This is an internet discussion forum. When people are met with harsh criticism and called out as being hateful and uneducated they will rarely read the details of the arguments; most people will instead flame away themselves, or leave the thread with a fueled sense of exclusion and be less sympathetic, and less likely to change their opinion regarding the same topic in the future.
Fourth:
A common exchange in this thread is the "No I think it's fine"-post, then being met by the "Why is it a problem for you that there is another option, that you can just ignore".
I believe the most common reason people say "it's fine" is not because they want to begrudge a part of the population of an option just for the sake of it; but because it asks a more fundamental question about human identity. Many people are not ready to accept more than 2 genders existing, and that this question being binary would be a problem is just as weird to them as if someone stated that the question "How many functioning eyes do you have, 0, 1, 2?" would need more than those 3 responses to not be offensive or uninclusive. Note: I'm not in any way personally claiming that these questions are in any way even remotely similar in any shape of form at all.
Fifth:
It is pointless from both sides to just say that the other side is "absurd" or "unfathomable", or that there is "no way anyone can even ...". Obviously there are a lot of opinions on this. It isn't simple. You, reading this, you might think it is simple and totally f**ing obvious, but evidently it isn't.
I was thinking about the same thing. Instead of the question they could simply show the avatars, letting the player make the decision without any text. How does Animal Crossing handle it?
They can sort the selection at the start let it be with the style question or the photos, but it seems the only way not to offend anyone would be to have a "don't want to say/other" option with gender neutral texts to compliment the male and female ones.
In any case, I'm probably in the minority but I don't see myself as the character but more like "I'm playing as this character and want to see his/her/(neutral pronoun) story", as blank as Pokémon protagonists might be.
Many times I even choose the opposite gender to make it more interesting or because I like the design better.
In any case, I'm probably in the minority but I don't see myself as the character but more like "I'm playing as this character and want to see his/her/(neutral pronoun) story", as blank as Pokémon protagonists might be.
Many times I even choose the opposite gender to make it more interesting or because I like the design better.
Yeezus
Member
The game proper still uses the binary quite a bit--breeding being a chief competitive mechanic. Interestingly though, the most efficient breeding usually takes place with a Ditto, one of the original gender-less Pokemon.
Did Nintendo ever capitulate on same-sex relationships with the Miis in that lifestyle game?
Did Nintendo ever capitulate on same-sex relationships with the Miis in that lifestyle game?
Pokemon XY's character creation tool was horribly disappointing. I don't know why it was included at all, except as a marketing gimmick. Sure, you have a couple choices for eye color and skin color, but you're really just playing as "the male trainer" or "the female trainer", just like past Pokemon games. So this never struck me as an issue. The character creator (and clothes system for that matter) is so limiting it doesn't actually let you create a character any more than a paint by numbers kit. I would like for your character to be far more customizable. Or if not, be sort of androgynous, with a huge variety of clothing options both male and female, and, as always, just never address the player's gender. The problem is I'm sure Nintendo really wants there to be a recognizable "male trainer" design and "female trainer" design for marketing purposes.
I think, for all character customization in any game going forward, you should be able to use any mix of gender appearance traits that you like. You should also be able to specify that you prefer not to choose a specific gender.
If your character isn't designed to be a specific person with a specific history and story (Like Nathan Drake, for example) you should be able to make it whatever you want it to be.
Also Nintendo needs to introduce more people of color.
If your character isn't designed to be a specific person with a specific history and story (Like Nathan Drake, for example) you should be able to make it whatever you want it to be.
Also Nintendo needs to introduce more people of color.
We're talking about how PCs are represented. Not gender roles of animals. These are two separate discussions imo.
Iva Demilcol
Member
That's not at all what I'm saying. The reply I quoted was directed at someone who reduced a good opinion to absurdity and I find that behavior kind of destructive, rather that being helpful.
I'd say that if you consider that someone saying that black people are 3/5 of a human is the equivalent to saying that transgender people don't need to be remained by games that they were born in a body they don't feel is their own, then you have a problem.
And I totally agree that something has to be done, but I don't agree you have to be overly aggressive with people that just come to this thread and try to expose a reasonable point of view.
I ignore if I'm playing devil's advocate for someone who doesn't deserve it, I just read an overly aggressive reply to something I don't think that deserves that treatment.
purseowner
Member
That poster's comment was invalidating people's identities by claiming they don't 'believe' in them. Opinions and debate are what this thread is all about, but, as others have pointed out, saying that is disregarding the factual existence of a subset of people.
I was by no means trying to be aggressive about it, but it isn't constructive or conducive to meaningful discussion to reduce my response to that either - that's called tone policing.
NHarmonic.
Member
Lol, what is this?
It'd be amazing to have more customization options in pokemon, after all you don't play as a really "defined" character with a deep specific storyline, it's just an avatar on a really underwhelming narrative.
But hey gamefreak already gave up on the story of these games after black/white, gave up on mega evolutions, pokemon following you, etc. Kings of leaving cool elements behind for no reason. I don't see the bloating.
Yeezus
Member
Could the gendered avatar query that frames the narrative be called old-fashioned or out of date? Of course the answer is yes. Especially in recent years gaming as an international community, and culture, has been vocal and keen to discuss these kinds of issues. The infancy of games as an artistic medium makes these discussions all the more important. But is the query obsolete? I don't think it is.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Yeah, I think the problem is that you ignored that the user was discrediting the identities of certain LGBTQIA+ people. Perhaps you should be more educated in a topic you want to discuss.
If the poster argued "I dont see race, and I dont see why we need to have black characters in games" would you find it as reasonable because its advocating for the gender equivalent of that.
Straight up saying you dont believe in gender identities and that you dont want fictional transgender characters to identify themselves as such (which is what the post was advocating for) invalidates these experiences as existing. Im confused as to why you think this is such a reasonable opinion that you've spent so long defending it on another posters behalf.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
"Let's see... what do you look like?"
*SLIDERS*
Sounds pretty simple to change.
*SLIDERS*
Sounds pretty simple to change.
How is more customization for the player character in an rpg not a good thing, when the character is as much a blank slate as they already are in pokemon game stories?
Allowing the player to get different hairstyles, hair colours, and clothing etc was a brilliant feature in X/Y, and not including that in future releases would be a mistake.
Iva Demilcol
Member
Yeah. I'm actually seeing the problem now and I should apologize to all of you:
I didn't read the "I believe" part and read the post as a point of view of how you could offend transgender people, and since I'm on my phone I just saw his post being quoted over and over again and I thought "hey, people are being overly aggressive in this thread again".
This is a poor excuse though, I should read more carefully what and who I'm replying to.
Again, my apologies. I won't edit my posts though, don't want to erase my mistakes.
Son_of_Dracula
Banned
Iwata died for this?
Well,. if you're all going to be smartasses, then you can all go fuck yourselves. I just asked a damn question. Well, I don't care about the answer now, nor do I care about the point of this thread. Have at it.
You've actually turned me against this issue. This is the heart of the SJW problem; you want to get mad at people before talking to them and trying to come to an understanding. Seriously, WTF? All that I've learned now is that' it's best to stay out of these issues.
i don't think you cared that much to begin with tbh
What did he mean by this?
Member
What do you mean by this?
ViolentP
Member
This is my biggest issue with these discussions. I came in with my ignorance of the subject on my sleeve and illustrated how I saw this situation considering that ignorance. Instead of educating me on how the other half sees this difference, I caught myself defending myself from being spoken to as if I was simply transphobic.
I would also argue that those that come out with hatred need the most educating. By simply attacking them back, the situation is further exacerbated by the validating of their hatred.
I don't think that's happening here.
People get frustrated at those who refuse to at least try and learn. Where has that happened?
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
If you actually cared I would think you would have taked that very tame criticism and turn it into a learning experience. Instead you would rather conduct yourself like that.
I wonder whose burner account this is?
That's not happening here and if it is it mostly likely warranted.
Don't pretend you weren't always against the issue. We can still read your first post. You clearly didn't care then either. You are the one who didn't take the time to understand other perspectives. We already understand where you initially came from and apparently it's where you're going to stay.
Hey we all make mistakes on gaf sometimes! I think this is a pretty graceful apology all told
ViolentP
Member
I reread the thread before I wrote what I did to make sure it wasn't just a bad read on my part. Many people had it coming, there's no denying that. But some didn't. The trigger finger is a bit itchy.
I can't tell if you're being genuine or not :/
You're right. If I express any sort of disagreement I must be troll. You are a mature adult, yessiree. This is nothing more than an us vs. them argument for sure.
No, really, what's wrong with you? Yes, I don't believe that there are more than two genders really. This sort of response makes me doubt that this is an actual issue like gender dysphoria, since appearntly you guys just want to attack people instead of spreading awareness or understanding. I do understand not feeling that either gender quite fits, but I don't understand how that works in the context of this game and I don't want to read 30 pages to understand exactly what teh OP wants. From just reading the OP, the problem is already solved in Sun/Moon since it doesn't seem to ask the question and you can just pick the one that suits you the most. Obviously not everyone will be happy, but you can't make everyone happy sometimes. That's just how it is. I also doubt that young kids want to spend an hour creating a character and making up custom pronouns (if they even understand what a pronoun is) just to make sure that every single group is satisfied in every single game ever.
Whiteblade999
Member
Not really. It is the same as selecting male or female as a gender choice in character creation. The only real change they could make is just not tie clothes or hairstyles to gender.
For something akin to Saints Row that is too much to ask for. Not because it shouldn't exist in the game, but because Game Freak would never actually put that much effort into it.
For something akin to Saints Row that is too much to ask for. Not because it shouldn't exist in the game, but because Game Freak would never actually put that much effort into it.
So, basically, people are born with that stance on this and that can't be changed, but everyone who doesn't see it your way is a dense bigot. Do you see the problem with that logic? Most likely not, so I'll simplify it: You're being just as prejudice as any homophobe.
See how silly that paragraph comes across? Obviously I'm not born into that opinion, so why would I be locked into it? It sounds like what you guys want it not a debate but rather a dogpile on Game Freak and Nintendo for not being inclusive enough. In which case, the title shouldn't be a question because the answer has already been decided as yes.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
Transgender is not usually considered a separate gender, yes. If you're a trans woman, you're a woman. If you're a trans man, you're a man.
The key thing to remember is that "gender" is pretty much a social construct. It basically refers to the social expectations and norms based on someone's biological sex. Usually these expectations aren't based on anything in biology - they're just reinforced by preconceived notions and socialization.
Someone who's non-binary basically feels that the terms "male" or "female" as they are usually applied in society, do not apply to them. Yeah, they're still tied to their biological sex, but they don't feel comfortable using those labels to define themselves. So non-binary gender labels basically help people feel more comfortable with themselves and get a better understanding of who they are.
For pronouns, I believe many non-binary people are cool with "they/them". That's a good general umbrella pronoun for anyone.
To be totally honest I don't fully understand genderfluidity so I still have some more to learn on that front. To some people I understand there's an element of day-to-day dysphoria involved which is similar to what trans people feel.
Anyway to solve this problem for Pokemon, people have suggested things like the professor asking "what do you look like?", adding a "neither" option when it asks if you're a boy or a girl, or a character creator.
Fighting game player accidentally said the n-word on a stream and a deluge of people rushed out of nowhere to explain why racial slurs aren't a big deal.
I think if you actually cared and were interested in educating yourself you would have read the thread and/or asked for helpful links, but here you are, spouting 'intolerance of my intolerance!!' and 'fucking sjws!!' and 'now I'm against it!!' lmao
So... You don't care then?
Feel like you just made his point and entrenched yourself.
On top of all this, part of why these big ass threads get so big is because people refuse to read the thread and it becomes a revolving door of people asking the same questions every 2-5 pages. This dude doesnt have to read all 30 pages to get a gist of whats going on.
Gotdatmoney
Member
What would it say as opposed to "are you a boy or are you a girl?" I could think of maybe "Create yourself" if they were to move into a more inclusive territory or something to that degree. But honestly my interpretation of that question is essentially that it's just trying to identify if you want a male avatar or a female. So is this question more about if the actual question is outdated? Because imo its not. Not in the general sense. Or is it that they should just move to a newer model? Cause I would think that makes more sense.
For example, when they moved to XY they allowed you to pick skin tones. They didnt ask "are you black?" They probably should just move to a more creation based model. But I dont see Game Freak really altering much beyond that.
For example, when they moved to XY they allowed you to pick skin tones. They didnt ask "are you black?" They probably should just move to a more creation based model. But I dont see Game Freak really altering much beyond that.
Thank you. This is all that I was asking for.
So, basically, the way to deal with this issue most effectively is to make everything in the game gender neutral. I can get behind that. However, I also don't think that it's totally necessary. That probably sounds insensitive, but the issue is that you can't satisfy every single person without turning it into a fantasy game with a full-blown character creator. I don't know how well that really fits the target audience, as I don't think Pokemon would be what it is today if the game began with everyone spending an hour creating a reflection of themselves. It's certainly something that Game Freak can do, but realistically there's going to be a line drawn somewhere as far as inclusion goes. I think it's fair not to do this since the main target audience is about 5-10 years too young to understand such an issue and that simply not explicitly asking the question is the best way to go for now. Though, I've always been a bigger fan of implicit than explicit.
Well, I guess the ignore list exists for a reason.
The problem is that you're being defensive instead of trying to be understanding. That's why you're twisting the situation around to fit something that didn't happen.
You came into this thread with a certain stance. You weren't born with it nor did we try to explain how you came to it. However you came to it it's understandable. We've seen it before and we know how it happens. People can change and the opportunity for you came by people telling you to read the thread. You asked and then got an answer. You then chose indignation instead of understanding. You decided it wasn't fair for people to tell you to be try to be understanding of other perspectives by reading the thread, instead telling us (well, them, I didn't reply until after) we are making no attempt to understand your perspective.
Why did you come off as a dense bigot though (your words)? Not because of what you initially said. At that point you still had the benefit of the doubt. No... it was this.
You asked a question. You got an answer. You didn't like the answer. So you lashed out. You didn't even try to gain some perspective here. You doubled down.
This is where you lost the benefit of the doubt. You seem to think that empathy is agenda driven. You asked a question that is answered with the thread and this is how you respond. Without the benefit of the doubt we can now just assume you are a bad person until you take the time to read the thread. Everything you need is here. If you chose not to it shows that you care more about your SJW agenda than you do empathy, which makes you a bad person.
Or not, actually. It depends on how you chose to react to this. You can still earn a better label. You don't just automatically get it now.
Before I ignore you, tell me what I'm supposed to learn from that. All that I'm getting is that I either care enough to read through hundreds of posts to get an understanding, or I don't care at all and I'm just intolerant. Nothing in-between. Ironic, since the entire point of this thread is that the world isn't black and white.
I'll admit that I did misunderstand something due to basing that post mainly off of the page it was on rather than the OP. That's the only mistake that I made.
Just gonna say that if you refer to the SJW problem, just that phrasing is gonna make people raise an eyebrow.
I say that just to let you know, without accusing you of anything.
"Read the thread" when it's this big isn't an answer. The OP only answers part of my question. You're also making a lot of assumptions with that empathy paragraph. I only use the term "SJW" when I feel that someone who believes with all of their heart that they're doing the right thing, isn't. It's not about a lack of empathy since I do understand gender fluidity and feeling somewhere in-between male and female, what I don't believe in/understand is flat-out making up genders and pronouns, and how that fits into this picture.
With that said, your idea that a person's stance on this matter determines if someone is good or bad is pretty much an SJW thing, IMO. Rather than trying to encourage inclusion, you just label anyone who disagrees to any extent as a heartless person without even trying to understand their point of view, since you've decided that your POV is the only correct one to have. In other words, it's the polar opposite of what you believe me to be. I'll admit that I overreacted, but it's mainly due to the fact that I hate getting dogpiled over an opinion.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
I feel like you should step back from this thread, read what you wrote and look at some of the links in last few pages. That's all I got for you.
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