Support NeoGAF

[Thelonelykoopa]

Do Cherokee have anything in their beliefs like Skinchangers? That might be why she chose the Navajo.

I Think I have read about some shape shifting potions which allows people to take the form of animals which I guess is similar?

 

[FeenixRising]

I can't even get mad, because fiction authors draw their inspirations for lots of real mythology.

Haitian Vodou for example has pretty much been bled dry by fiction authors.

 

[markhimself46]

Jesus fucking Christ

 

[Russ T]

The very nature of fantasy writing is twisting aspects of the real world to fit an imagined one. Nothing and nobody deserves protection from that process, and you gave not a single example of harm in your entire post, just snarky, sanctimonious declamations.

But I did. You're just choosing to ignore it because it's convenient to pretend the harm doesn't exist when you're not the one it's harming.

This is what privilege is, friend.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Just gonna quote this again because it seems like people are ignoring the point being made by this actual real Native American. This is a religion, and a system of beliefs, that is held by real people today.

"But what about Christianity!" you scream from the rooftops of your million-dollar mansion that your parents bought for you on a private island.

Well, Christians aren't marginalized. Everyone knows what Christianity is. How many people actually realize that Native Americans are still practicing their religions to this day? Not many, I'd wager. So, when they, the Native Americans, see something they believe is real being misrepresented, even if it's just fiction, it offends them. Yes, they are offended by people treating their beliefs as a bucket of ideas, rather than respecting the marginalized and often forgotten cultures that, I feel I should remind you, still exist.

"But what about all the previous uses of skinwalkers!" you shout into the microphone at a stadium full of people your parents paid to come sit and listen to you whine about how other people's cultures are free game for all to mine and abuse.

Well, the internet is still relatively new. Native Americans are often much poorer than the people who typically have easy access to the internet. As the internet spreads, their voices grow stronger. It's entirely possible they were upset about previous appropriation and misrepresentation of skinwalkers, but did not have the power or voice to make that known. Also, these issues are more and more coming to the light because our culture is evolving and allowing people to voice their issues with things without being immediately ignored. This is a good thing.

"But it's just fiction!" you yell from the moon base your parents bought for you to more easily transmit your message to as much of the earth as possible as quickly as possible and also any extraterrestrial aliens who might be listening.

So? Fiction is all most people have as a basis for understanding Native American cultures. Most people in the developed world can very easily explain the basics of what Christianity is. Tell me how any single Native American tribe practices their religion. Now tell me which piece of fiction you learned that from.

This shit is real.

This shit is important.

Stop being dismissive just because you want your fun stories. There's a way to represent Native American beliefs without being harmful. For a start: saying an inherently evil creature in their mythology is actually just misunderstood and that the people were wrong to persecute said creature... probably not a good idea.

Man you have built up everyone who disagrees with you into rich trust fund kids in your mind, haven't you.

 

[Russ T]

Man you have built up everyone who disagrees with you into rich trust fund kids in your mind, haven't you.

Nah I know there's no one here like that. But I did have some fun running with the idea of privilege and expanding it to ludicrous degrees!

I thought talking about a moon base would give that away, but I guess people think moon bases are real??

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Here is an example of one of the many cool as hell things from Cherokee Mythology which I would love to see in Harry Potter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_Mocker

After tormenting and killing their victim by slitting the victim's head they consume his heart (doing so without leaving a mark on the victim's skin), and add a year to their life for every year that the slain would have still lived. Much like a banshee, the sound of a raven mocker means that someone will soon die.

wait

waiiiit

The Shinigami from Death Note are practically raven mockers, down to the 'gain life dependent on how many years the slain would live' and the whole heart thing and the death note defaulting to a heart attack

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Good posts Russ T
Obviously most people would disagree but of course they will.

I can't be the only person growing weary of being lectured by people who cling to this kind of phraseology.

Probably.

And who gets to make that decision?

In this example the Native American tribe she's pulling this "story" from.

 

[Irminsul]

In this example the Native American tribe she's pulling this "story" from.

Do they vote on that or what?

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

But I did. You're just choosing to ignore it because it's convenient to pretend the harm doesn't exist when you're not the one it's harming.

This is what privilege is, friend.

No, you strawmanned and ad-hominemed everybody who might disagree with you, handwaved apt analogies on spurious grounds, and ranted about general ills Native Americans have suffered for centuries without remotely making a case for why what Rowling, specifically, did was harmful. "The harm is real and only privilege can make you disagree" is the laziest retort in modern discourse.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Do they vote on that or what?

If they want to.

 

[Erevador]

Do they vote on that or what?

Didn't you get the memo? All minorities hold a grand council and elect a chosen few grad students and adjunct professors of literature to represent them and speak for their people in all important matters. These people make sure we all know when "this shit is so important."

Without them, we would truly be lost.

 

[Russ T]

No, you strawmanned and ad-hominemed everybody who might disagree with you, handwaved apt analogies on spurious grounds, and ranted about general ills Native Americans have suffered for centuries without remotely making a case for why what Rowling, specifically, did was harmful. "The harm is real and only privilege can make you disagree" is the laziest retort in modern discourse.

Brutal.

Savage.

I love your mischaracterization of the core of my post. It's a pretty classic way of dismissing anybody who makes a point you don't like.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Didn't you get the memo? All minorities hold a grand council and elect a chosen few grad students and adjunct professors of literature to represent them and speak for their people in all important matters. These people make sure we all know when "this shit is so important."

Without them, we would truly be lost.

I know you guys are trying to be funny but I don't see what wrong with what I posted. Like if a group of people decide they don't want share their culture with others, how is that a problem?

 

[#sorrynotsorry]

is this going to become the new thing? because if so I'd like to get it put on a sweater. and no if you're honestly talking about this story basically being an appropriation of poor undefended Anglo-American culture, I'm going to go get some cereal.

Again, this isn't a race issue. Cultural appropriation isn't always bad. I brought up Anglo-American cultural appropriation to a much greater degree to show you that. Obviously it's not always an issue. No one has yet actually shown how cultural appropriation is harming the culture. Citations to quotes of Native Americans saying they are offended prove nothing. This isn't a race issue.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Sorry, but I disagree. Lots of the magic elements presented in HP take a basis on existing folklore and twisting it. I don't think she should have to change anything about what she said about skinwalkers in her work of fiction. What I think would be better is putting some sort of disclaimer saying something like:

"This work of fiction is loosely based on real beliefs of Native Americans. We encourage our readers to educate themselves on the real myths and beliefs, which are honored to this day."

Maybe also have links to some sites or books that talk about Native American religious traditions.

Then she'd have dozens of links posting all her sources of information and influences. There isn't a single fictional story that isn't inspired by lore, religious beliefs, mythology and actual events, and expecting an author to cite all of them, as if they're writing an academic paper, sets a weird precedent

I know you guys are trying to be funny but I don't see what wrong with what I posted. Like if a group of people decide they don't want share their culture with others, how is that a problem?

Because there's no council that speaks for an entire group of people. You can't have some subset of that group deciding that information, that's already been shared previously, can no longer be used or mentioned. Not to mention most cultures are partial appropriations of others. Very few were developed in complete isolation from other cultures and peoples and have remained completely uninfluenced, so whenever I see complaints of appropriation, it seems (and call me out on this if you want) a bit egotistical. Like that culture believes theirs to be "pure" and wholly developed and belong to their own people

 

[Arkeband]

I can't be the only person growing weary of being lectured by people who cling to this kind of phraseology.

It's like some demon love child between Tumblr meme bait, manufactured slam poetry, and that video of the Yale student yelling "fuck" at her professor.

We all know that gratuitous appeals to emotion and throwing in words like "shit" make any motherfucking persuasive argument like 100x better.

 

[#sorrynotsorry]

But I did. You're just choosing to ignore it because it's convenient to pretend the harm doesn't exist when you're not the one it's harming.

This is what privilege is, friend.

No, you didn't. Nowhere in your post or the Hopi quote was there even an assertion of evidence that would show the appropriation was harmful.

It seems you are adopting the idea that this is harmful solely because it's not accurate. It's important because someone believes in the base story.

You are wrong to say this without evidence. Just because something is mischaracterized does not mean it is harmed. Please show evidence of this harm. If "this shit is important", it should surely be easy to show why it's important (the appropriation, the religion is of course).

 

[Russ T]

Well, in this case, it's very specifically British Culture vs Navajo Culture, but it's part of a much larger trend of borrowing from Native American mythology without really bothered to respect it. It's just a pool of ideas that people fish from for their stories.

And hey don't get me wrong I love the aesthetic of lots of aboriginal cultures around the world. Tribal art, mythology, religions. They're fascinating. In a perfect world, we could freely borrow from anything, because there would be no marginalized groups. I wish we lived in that perfect world. Acknowledging that we don't and that it's not okay to misrepresent a marginalized culture is hard. I wish I didn't have to.

But this world isn't perfect. It's fucked up in so many ways. Shouldn't we try to listen to the people who are the primary ones getting fucked over? Are we doing to deny sexism exists, despite the mounds and mounds of evidence?

The voice of Native American tribes is a small one, because people who built my country slaughtered them. They also slaughtered my ancestors, although I'm only like 1/16 or 1/32 whatever-tribe-it-is. Grandmother. I don't identify with this group (I wanna say Cherokee, but I really have no idea), so it doesn't really affect me.

But, christ, I can empathize. I know what it's like to have my beliefs misrepresented time and time again. That lack of respect is hard even for me, and my life has been easy and privileged as fuck. How hard must it be for a group that can only barely get anyone to listen to them, and even when they do, it's like this, where most of the people listening are telling them their opinions are worthless because "it's just fiction"?

How is this not depressing as hell for everyone in this thread?

No, you didn't. Nowhere in your post or the Hopi quote was there even an assertion of evidence that would show the appropriation was harmful.

It seems you are adopting the idea that this is harmful solely because it's not accurate. It's important because someone believes in the base story.

You are wrong to say this without evidence. Just because something is mischaracterized does not mean it is harmed. Please show evidence of this harm. If "this shit is important", it should surely be easy to show why it's important (the appropriation, the religion is of course).

Misrepresentation IS harmful, ESPECIALLY when the people being misrepresented are marginalized as fuck.

I very clearly stated why it's important. That you disagree or can't see it is not my problem. I'm not here to lecture you. That's not my job. I can only hope that one tiny iota of my feelings gets through to you so that you start to think about it on your own and eventually empathize with the people who can only barely convince the world they exist.

That's how it went down for me, anyway! Took years of people calling me out on gross shit before I finally realized "oh, wow, they're right, I've been a huge ass".

It's like some demon love child between Tumblr meme bait, manufactured slam poetry, and that video of the Yale student yelling "fuck" at her professor.

We all know that gratuitous appeals to emotion and throwing in words like "shit" make any motherfucking persuasive argument like 100x better.

I just type how I talk. If you don't like it, put me on ignore. That's your prerogative, bro.

Also, I don't use Tumblr. :3

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I know you guys are trying to be funny but I don't see what wrong with what I posted. Like if a group of people decide they don't want share their culture with others, how is that a problem?

how do you enforce that

like unless they copyright their culture and decide to sue everyone who uses it

 

[BibiMaghoo]

It's a series about magic bullshit and wizards.

C'mon.

This. Ridiculous.

 

[Irminsul]

Shouldn't we try to listen to the people who are the primary ones getting fucked over?

Ah, that sentence again. Should I quote myself from earlier in the thread? Or let's make it simpler.

If I find you a Native American that's telling you to please go ahead and borrow from their culture because it's great to notice one culture's influence everywhere, are you going to listen?

 

[Wag]

Not an uncommon occurrence in fiction.

 

[Russ T]

Ah, that sentence again. Should I quote myself from earlier in the thread? Or let's make it simpler.

If I find you a Native American that's telling you to please go ahead and borrow from their culture because it's great to notice one culture's influence everywhere, are you going to listen?

"One woman doesn't mind catcalling, so all women should be okay with it."

Fuck off.

 

[Henkka]

Misrepresentation IS harmful, ESPECIALLY when the people being misrepresented are marginalized as fuck.

Could you clarify what you believe exactly is the harm in what Rowling is doing? You've kind of answered this, but not very specifically, imo.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

"One woman doesn't mind catcalling, so all women should be okay with it."

Fuck off.

I understand your point, but I think your example is a bit disingenuous. Catcalling is generally considered a pretty objectifying act. It isn't simply something thought by a few more outspoken women, versus something like cultural appropriation where there is no clear, or even anything approaching clear, consensus on whether it's harmful or not. So it then becomes whether to agree with the pro side or the con side, with neither site making a decidedly strong argument why the other is wrong

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

I feel like this video is pretty good on explaining Cultural Appropriation:
https://youtu.be/KXejDhRGOuI

how do you enforce that

like unless they copyright their culture and decide to sue everyone who uses it

You can't, calling out people who do it is about all you can do.

 

[#sorrynotsorry]

Well, in this case, it's very specifically British Culture vs Navajo Culture, but it's part of a much larger trend of borrowing from Native American mythology without really bothered to respect it. It's just a pool of ideas that people fish from for their stories.

I'm really not sure how a lack of respect is shown here.
Every culture is a pool of ideas. Literally every culture. That is exactly what culture is. That is literally how it spreads and grows stronger. Cultures are harmed when they are ignored and forgotten.

But this world isn't perfect. It's fucked up in so many ways. Shouldn't we try to listen to the people who are the primary ones getting fucked over? Are we doing to deny sexism exists, despite the mounds and mounds of evidence?

We should. But this isn't racism or sexism. This is cultural appropriation. No one is getting fucked over here. No one has even asserted a harm.

I'm honestly not sure this isn't positive. Native American culture is extremely xenophobic. It being adopted in a message that millions will read across the world is positive and strengthens the culture. No one is going to believe Native Americans believe Skinwalkers are wizards. They may not know what they actually are. But they'll know they exist in someone's belief. That's better than ignorance.

How is this not depressing as hell for everyone in this thread?

Because no one is harmed.

The culture would be harmed if Rowling made up facets of the culture. She didn't. She appropriated it. That's what art is.

 

[Arkeband]

Not an uncommon occurrence in fiction.

You don't even have to go that far.

 

[P44]

Here's my question:

Was The Satanic Verses cultural appropriation?

 

[Zekes!]

Again, this isn't a race issue. Cultural appropriation isn't always bad. I brought up Anglo-American cultural appropriation to a much greater degree to show you that. Obviously it's not always an issue. No one has yet actually shown how cultural appropriation is harming the culture. Citations to quotes of Native Americans saying they are offended prove nothing. This isn't a race issue.

Because you run the risk of separating the people from the culture it comes from, and forgetting about them.

I live in a part of Canada in which we proudly display First Nations art and culture everywhere. One might consider that to be promoting First Nations culture, but we continue to marginalize them as a people, or talk about their culture in the past tense when they are still alive and very much trying to reclaim their culture and traditions.

Its not enough to simply take ideas from a marginalized group of people, use it without any actual input from the peoples the ideas come from, and say "we're bringing awareness to your culture!"

 

[Fuchsdh]

I know you guys are trying to be funny but I don't see what wrong with what I posted. Like if a group of people decide they don't want share their culture with others, how is that a problem?

You probably think that Donald Trump's xenophobic rhetoric and "Make America Great Again"/"Muslims are terrorists who can't assimilate into our culture" comments are stupid, right? Should those white people get to keep their culture as-is?

 

[Russ T]

I understand your point, but I think your example is a bit disingenuous. Catcalling is generally considered a pretty objectifying act. It isn't simply something thought by a few more outspoken women, versus something like cultural appropriation where there is no clear, or even anything approaching clear, consensus on whether it's harmful or not. So it then becomes whether to agree with the pro side or the con side, with neither site making a decidedly strong argument why the other is wrong

Fair enough. I don't disagree that the comparison isn't 1:1, but the sentiment should be just as strong, in my opinion. You could (and I do) look at "cultural appropriation" as a sort of analogue to "objectification", in that you are reducing someone's culture to the aesthetic level for the purpose of accommodating your own desires. Essentially, in this case, the idea of a skinwalker is being "objectified", i.e., reduced to nothing but entertainment, for the good of the writer and reader.

Could you clarify what you believe exactly is the harm in what Rowling is doing? You've kind of answered this, but not very specifically, imo.

I think what I wrote above is hopefully more clear? It's a sort of rephrasing of what I said in my first post. It's harmful because it misrepresents what they actually believe. What they actually believe is something very few people know about, because MOST people learn about Native American culture (especially tribe-specific culture!) from fiction that is almost never correct.

I think it would be wholly different if the Navajo religion was common knowledge.

For an example of cultural appropriation that I don't have a problem with: see Islamic stuff. I can understand why Muslims do not like it, and I empathize with that, but their religion is not one that no one knows about. The biggest thing they have to fight against is the assumption that all Muslims are terrorists, which is a very real problematic assumption, and one I work to correct at every opportunity. But it has nothing to do with, for example, a recent anime soundtrack having to remove a song because it has Islamic chanting in it.

I do not believe cultural appropriation is a black and white issue.

I do, however, fully believe that this specific issue of misrepresenting Navajo beliefs is one worth considering.

I'm really not sure how a lack of respect is shown here.
Every culture is a pool of ideas. Literally every culture. That is exactly what culture is. That is literally how it spreads and grows stronger. Cultures are harmed when they are ignored and forgotten.



We should. But this isn't racism or sexism. This is cultural appropriation. No one is getting fucked over here. No one has even asserted a harm.

I'm honestly not sure this isn't positive. Native American culture is extremely xenophobic. It being adopted in a message that millions will read across the world is positive and strengthens the culture. No one is going to believe Native Americans believe Skinwalkers are wizards. They may not know what they actually are. But they'll know they exist in someone's belief. That's better than ignorance.



Because no one is harmed.

The culture would be harmed if Rowling made up facets of the culture. She didn't. She appropriated it. That's what art is.

I understand where you're coming from, but, in my not so humble opinion, it's possible to borrow from other cultures while also being respectful of those cultures. In this specific case, I would suggest refraining from implying that the Navajo are wrong to vilify skinwalkers. I would choose another path to explanation. Maybe say skinwalkers are evil creatures, but some Navajo wizards devoted their lives to hunting them down, or something. I dunno, I'm not the writer here, but, like I said above, cultural appropriation is not a black and white issue!

 

[Funyarinpa]

"One woman doesn't mind catcalling, so all women should be okay with it."

Fuck off.

If you want to treat cultural exchange as an inherently evil act like catcalling (not to mention the obviously false equivalence), how do you expect these nations to come out of marginalization? You lament that these people can "barely can convince the world they exist", yet you always take up arms against people who do give them a voice.

(edit: I acknowledge your statement about the relation of "cultural appropriation" compared to catcalling.)

As for misrepresentation, all these works need IMO is a disclaimer at the beginning creating the cultures the author has taken inspiration and that the depiction of the culture doesn't reflect the real culture in full. That'd give people awareness that a particular culture exists while taking precautions against forming misconceptions, even if you don't trust the work's audience to recognize the concept of creative liberty (and even then, it's debatable whether a work's audience limits the right to that work's creative freedom).

Not to mention that no single person can speak for any of the demographics they belong to. A Native American claiming that this act is inherently offensive and/or harmful isn't speaking for their whole nation, neither is a Native American who doesn't mind it.

 

[#sorrynotsorry]

Because you run the risk of forgetting about / separating the actual people the culture comes from.

I live in a part of Canada in which we proudly display First Nations art and culture everywhere. One might consider that to be promoting First Nations culture, but we continue to marginalize them as a people, or talk about their culture in the past tense when they are still alive and very much trying to reclaim the culture and traditions.

How is this causing anyone to forget about the culture? It literally does the opposite.

 

[Infinite]

I understand your point, but I think your example is a bit disingenuous. Catcalling is generally considered a pretty objectifying act. It isn't simply something thought by a few more outspoken women, versus something like cultural appropriation where there is no clear, or even anything approaching clear, consensus on whether it's harmful or not. So it then becomes whether to agree with the pro side or the con side, with neither site making a decidedly strong argument why the other is wrong

Not remotely true

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I feel like this video is pretty good on explaining Cultural Appropriation:
https://youtu.be/KXejDhRGOuI

But that actually supports Rowling though. The main issue of appropriation is that it uses other cultures ideas and practices without respecting or acknowledging the origins of it. The characters in the story ARE Native American. She isn't taking bits and pieces of native american lore, mixing it with others and calling it a day. She's taking it, and adapting it to the world of Harry Potter by making those stories real.

One thing to note is that Harry Potter isn't set in our world. It's heavily based on our world. And I think that's a huge distinction in how it approaches the magic users of different cultures and groups of people

Not remotely true

How is it not remotely true. Maybe I should have said "using cultural influences" rather than "cultural appropriation"? My point is that, while some people of a group might see something as harmful, others might see it as a way of spreading the cultural. And both sides can be from within the same culture in question

 

[Henkka]

I feel like this video is pretty good on explaining Cultural Appropriation:
https://youtu.be/KXejDhRGOuI

You can't, calling out people who do it is about all you can do.

I only watched the first minute or so, but I already have a question about the first myth she debunked... She said:

One group is being penalized by institutions for wearing natural hairstyles, while the other is called edgy and stylish, for doing the exact same thing!

What "institutions" is she referring to? I get that there are schools that prohibit those hairstyles, and that's wrong, but I doubt the people who run those schools would approve of Kylie Jenner wearing cornrows, either. Those people are probably racists who would scorn her for trying to "look black", or something. She makes it sound like the exact same people are penalizing black people while praising white people for the same hairstyles, and I kinda doubt that's the case.

 

[gosox333]

"One woman doesn't mind catcalling, so all women should be okay with it."

Fuck off.

bad analogy, one woman liking catcalling for personal reasons doesn't carry the same weight as someone of Native American descent enjoying non malicious attention being brought to their culture

edit: I see you've already responded to the exact same argument, sorry for the late post

 

[Funyarinpa]

Not remotely true

There are, quite evidently, many people in this thread who do not believe cultural exchange (or """appropriation""") isn't something inherently harmful.

Please stop projecting your own certainty about the issue on the actual controversy at hand.

 

[Wag]

You don't even have to go that far.

Let we not forget this classic.

 

[Zekes!]

How is this causing anyone to forget about the culture? It literally does the opposite.

I edited the first sentence in my post for better clarification, but I'm talking about forgetting about the people in which the culture comes from, in this case, people who continue to be marginalized.

 

[Russ T]

I need to get some work done today, hahaha, so I'm gonna bow out of this thread for now. I'll probably come back later??

Sorry for coming off so harsh. This is something that can get me pretty heated (as if you didn't already figure that out!). I mean no offense, I just, uh, got carried away. I appreciate the people who engaged sincerely, and I do respect your opinions, even if we disagree!

Later, friends!

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

But that actually supports Rowling though. The main issue of appropriation is that it uses other cultures ideas and practices without respecting or acknowledging the origins of it. The characters in the story ARE Native American. She isn't taking bits and pieces of native american lore, mixing it with others and calling it a day. She's taking it, and adapting it to the world of Harry Potter by making those stories real.

One thing to note is that Harry Potter isn't set in our world. It's heavily based on our world. And I think that's a huge distinction in how it approaches the magic users of different cultures and groups of people

And Native Americans feel like that's not happening here.

You probably think that Donald Trump's xenophobic rhetoric and "Make America Great Again"/"Muslims are terrorists who can't assimilate into our culture" comments are stupid, right? Should those white people get to keep their culture as-is?

I honestly don't know what your trying to get at with this ridiculous comparison.

 

[Infinite]

There are, quite evidently, many people in this thread who do not believe cultural exchange (or """appropriation""") isn't something inherently harmful.

Please stop projecting your own certainty about the issue on the actual controversy at hand.

I think you're projecting. Person was saying that there's always a grey area with cultural appropriation and my response was that isn't true. There are instances where we can universally agree that some instances of appropriation are plain bad such as black face and the Washington redskins.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I edited the first sentence in my post for better clarification, but I'm talking about forgetting about the people in which the culture comes from, in this case, people who continue to be marginalized.

But the characters practicing this in the story ARE Native Americans. People keep glossing over the fact she isn't just having a white character talk about skinwalkers. You could probably fault her for using the general term "Native Americans" and not the specific tribe, but aside from that this doesn't follow the typical pitfalls of cultural appropriation.

I think you're projecting. Person was saying that there's always a grey area with cultural appropriation and my response was that isn't true. There are instances where we can universally agree that some instances of appropriation are plain bad such as black face and the Washington redskins.

What? Your statement doesn't even make sense. Or maybe you didn't understand my point? You can't always have a grey area. A grey area by definition is non definite, which was my point. It's ever changing, it's ever unclear, there is no certainty or absolution to it. While some examples are harmful, some aren't and some arguments could be made for both sides.

Also, I'm not sure I'd consider blackface cultural appropriation. That's a completely different issue.

 

[Arkeband]

I need to get some work done today, hahaha, so I'm gonna bow out of this thread for now. I'll probably come back later??

Sorry for coming off so harsh. This is something that can get me pretty heated (as if you didn't already figure that out!). I mean no offense, I just, uh, got carried away. I appreciate the people who engaged sincerely, and I do respect your opinions, even if we disagree!

Later, friends!

Fuck off.

I guess you, uh, hahaha, just got carried away, with your charming speech-to-text dictation.

Of all Native American folklore, and I'm talking "we live on the back of a giant turtle" to Sasquatch, it seems suspicious to me that people turning into animals is really the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

[Funyarinpa]

I edited the first sentence in my post for better clarification, but I'm talking about forgetting about the people in which the culture comes from, in this case, people who continue to be marginalized.

You say these people "continue to be marginalized", but how does that mean cultural exchange HURTS these people? Maybe it's ineffective, but outright causing *harm* to these people? Your posts do not sound like that is the case.

I need to get some work done today, hahaha, so I'm gonna bow out of this thread for now. I'll probably come back later??

Sorry for coming off so harsh. This is something that can get me pretty heated (as if you didn't already figure that out!). I mean no offense, I just, uh, got carried away. I appreciate the people who engaged sincerely, and I do respect your opinions, even if we disagree!

Later, friends!

Thanks a lot for the civil discourse! Have a nice day. Would love to discuss with you more if you want to revisit the thread. Cheers!

edit:

I think you're projecting. Person was saying that there's always a grey area with cultural appropriation and my response was that isn't true. There are instances where we can universally agree that some instances of appropriation are plain bad such as black face and the Washington redskins.

Oh, I misunderstood you then. I thought you meant that cultural exchange was agreed upon universally as a detrimental thing in all cases.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I honestly don't know what your trying to get at with this ridiculous comparison.

That those people have no more claim to gatekeep their culture from others than anyone else. Contests for cultural purity are stupid, and aside from actually using force it's never actually worked.

 

[Funyarinpa]

That those people have no more claim to gatekeep their culture from others than anyone else. Contests for cultural purity are stupid, and aside from actually using force it's never actually worked.

Would you also agree that it's pretty much impossible in most cases to have a nation have a consensus on sharing their culture with others (or the opposite)?