Messypandas
Member
I don't have a problem with it, because it seems like the catalyst for a game that was doomed to never be made. When Sam Houser comes on stage with his beggars cap for GTA 6, then i'd have a problem with it.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Launching a Kickstarter campaign on an E3 press conference
- Thread starter Salsa
- Start date
Forgot about the Amplitude situation. Not saying there's any inherent 'harm', it just felt a tad bit "bait-and-switchy". Would a legitimate Shenmue 3 Kickstarter not have been funded without Sony's posturing?
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
You're delusional if you think Sony isn't contributing to the development costs.
It is murky. But it's not as if they asked for 30 million. I think it was more to gauge interest, then behind the scenes Sony surely will help with money and/or development time to make sure it gets done.
Essentially make sure fans put their money where their mouth is and are invested in the game, rather than spend a bunch on a remake then no one actually buys it.
It could serve as a good precedent either way. If they botch it, we'll know to be wary. And if they really put effort into it and make it right for the fans, they will certainly be rewarded, and fans will know that they can voice their opinion on what project might come next.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
They publicly backed our kickstarter too (Cosmic Star Heroine) and ours wasn't the first. Obviously, nowhere near as big as an E3 announcement, but we announced the game at a Sony PAX party and we posted about the game & Kickstarter on the Playstation Blog.
Kickstart a project because no publisher will fund it. Also connect with fans.
"It allows developers to make the game they want to make, without undue publisher pressure." as said by Slightly Mad
Then
Kickstart a project then get a publisher after.
Nicalis picks up Kickstarter-funded 'The '90s Arcade Racer'
Then to
Get a publisher, sign a contract then kickstart the project.
Sony launches Shenmue Kickstarter at E3
Slippery slope
This is what the devs of Divekick did after they found a publisher.
The Kickstarter page for Divekick, a fighting game billed as a parody of the genre, has been updated to reflect the campaign's closing, despite reaching its goal of $30,000. Divekick has found itself an unnamed publisher, and the money pledged will no longer be collected.
2 Slice Toaster
Member
What if Rockstar comes with a KS for a new IP? Could they not justify it by saying they couldn't fund it themselves as they aren't convinced of its appeal, but say a certain amount of people signalled their approval by bidding a certain threshold of funds....
It's not like they are going to make the game off of 2 mill. They will need at lest 10 mill and Im not sure if they would get that through Kickstarter and it would still have Sega's name on it. Didn't Senmue cost over 50 mil in the 90s. They also have to convince Sega to let them make it since they own the IP. Sony is probably paying the rest of what is needed. It seems like it's similar to Igarashi's Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night where the Kickstarter is to get things started and show a publisher that there is interest.
It may be slightly shady but this was dead.
It may be slightly shady but this was dead.
From the risk transference end, I can see your point, if only that it would be a pretty bad thing if the Kickstarter took the funds and never completed the project. If it was announced during the press conference, then they ran off with the money, that would be a pretty bad situation because it was promoted in this manner.
Is that going to happen here? I am 99% sure everyone will get a game that donates.
Personally, I think it's an exciting time, where the developers can get funding directly from the consumer for these projects that no company would publish. I've backed a number of things that ended up being great end products(not just games either) but if the consumer is truly worried about the risk, they can choose not to donate. The game was going to get funded the second they announced it on stage. Someone can always buy it when it comes out.
Shenmue is a niche game I don't blame them. Many people have been asking for it and basically it's up to them to put their money where their mouth is and if enough people truly want it then it'll happen. I'm sure Sony will help fund this since the campaign will be successful.
I'd honestly welcome this kind of thing, having fans that want niche titles like this partially fund it with a big company behind them if it's successful. It's a good way to gauge just how many people want it. I'd honestly be more than happy to back some dream projects of mine unfortunately Shenmue isn't my cup of tea.
I'd honestly welcome this kind of thing, having fans that want niche titles like this partially fund it with a big company behind them if it's successful. It's a good way to gauge just how many people want it. I'd honestly be more than happy to back some dream projects of mine unfortunately Shenmue isn't my cup of tea.
But obviously a cpntract was signed with a publisher before the KS.
The problem people have is that it sets a new precedents. Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night already did this. Many more will do it and when publishers see that there is less risk to them.
They can't make the game for 2 million but how much do you think it will end at? I am sure it will be many times the 2 million.
Yes I can say no to this and just buy the game outright but that isn't going to stop this slippery slope since this is a new precedents. This is not the last time we are going to see something like this.
Preorder dlc, store exclusive dlc, etc is the norm now also.
Preorder, surveys, etc is another way to gauge this without customer's investment. If for whatever reason this does not review well or doesn't get finished then you are shit out of luck. No refunds. They are passing some of the risk on to the customer.
test_account
XP-39C²
Sony didnt lauch the Shenmue 3 kickstarter though, unless "launches" is referring to it being announced at their press conference. There simply isnt enough information around it yet to say how much Sony is involved. But we will see if more info around this will be revealed.
But regardless, people have different opinion about what the best business model is, and that is fair enough. For me personally, i dont see why it would be a slippery slope if a game gets picked up by a publisher later on as long as i get what i payed for. There is no "free money" given here, people decide for themself what they want to pledge, or if they want to pledge. That is why i'm curious to why this Kickstarter stuff is such a taboo to some. I would also be disappointed if a Kickstarter campaign got canceled if there was some cool rewards that wouldnt be able otherwise.
Let's be honest, you dont simply let a guy put his Kickstarter project on your conference only because you like it, they clearly have some interests on it.
test_account
XP-39C²
Sure, its fully possible that Sony is the publishers for all that i know, and i think Sony is involved somehow. I just wrote that to point out that we dont know at this point in time how much Sony is involved. Maybe i'm misunderstanding, but i get the thought that someone thinks that this is a standard Sony published game, simply being put up on Kickstarter first. I dont think thats the case. But again, i might be wrong.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Y2Kev is on point right here. After sleeping on it, Y2Kev is perfectly describing how I feel about this.
harrisk954
Member
The Kickstarter was only for $2 million... The game will cost many many many millions more to produce and market... So, I would guess that Sony is funding this.
I think we are going to see way more kickstarter game project that has publisher tie-in in the future for some riskier projects. I'm generally okay with how it is currently especially because the price I'm paying for just the game itself is lower than the full retail. It allows publisher and developer know there is enough interest to move the project forward. If Activision comes and start kickstarting COD project to get more money, then f' that.
I have mixed feelings about all of this. Advertising a kickstarter campaign in an E3 press conference feels weird. It seems to me as if Sony does not believe into making Shenmue 3 and they try to test the waters to find out if people (and how many) are still interested on the game.
We are talking about a game (franchise) that is 15 years old and most of the new gamers have no knowledge about.
Do we know who has the intellectual property of the Shenmue games?
Is it still Sega or Sony and Yu Suzuki bought the IP from Sega?
At this time almost 30000 people backed the project (almost 2.5 million funded) and that is not enough interest for a company to invest millions to create a new AAA game.
We are talking about a game (franchise) that is 15 years old and most of the new gamers have no knowledge about.
Do we know who has the intellectual property of the Shenmue games?
Is it still Sega or Sony and Yu Suzuki bought the IP from Sega?
At this time almost 30000 people backed the project (almost 2.5 million funded) and that is not enough interest for a company to invest millions to create a new AAA game.
Hidden One
Member
Just be happy Shenmue 3 is happening.
Yep. It's weird to see some of the reactions in this thread when, just a few months ago, people were saying that not only would a publisher NEVER fund a shenmue 3, then many doubted the ability for the game to get fully funded via kickstarted in the first place. This scenario is pretty much meeting kickstarter goals while guaranteeing funding investment.
I'm not sure about the outrage.
I've got no issue with Kickstarter being used this way for niche games that would have trouble getting funded via traditional models. I do have a big problem with the lack of transparency and construction of this particular Kickstarter though. I've been saying this a lot but I think its important to keep saying because I DON'T want other Kickstarters to follow suit in this regard - "oh this Shenmue thing was a big hit, lets hide our publisher tie-in, etc."
The customer doesn't win? unless you own a PC or PS4 I guess.
This is guaranteed to be the case.
Right, but the customer is knowingly taking the risk. The thing is though is that at least there is a choice at all. Now a company can say "Do you want this? Prove it." instead of "We fucked up because we thought you wanted this and you didn't."
I'll agree just like season passes, dlc etc, it's not ideal but if it's the difference between games like this, Darkstalkers, and VLR 3 becoming a reality or these games getting shelved forever, then I know what my choice is 100% of the time. The added benefit is that, even if you don't agree, you can still benefit because the project will get funded with or without you. You can choose to take the risk or you can choose to wait it out.
The hard truth is that game development is really expensive and the era of risky projects is likely coming to an end without things like this. I get what everyone is saying, and I understand why you feel like it's a bad thing, but if that's what it takes to get a Shenmue 3 made, then sign me up.
On a side note, I am going to take this opportunity to say that for the most part the discussion in here has been intelligent and thoughtful. Even if we don't agree, I think it's refreshing to see most of the posts I've read as relevant and well thought out. This type of discussion is one of the things I really like about GAF in general. Lots of smart passionate people here.
CosmicQueso
Member
Well, my friend, we're going to find out just how much people are okay with major publishers and titles going to kickstarter sooner than you might think. Get ready for a wave of titles over the next few months. I'm not a fan, but if this is the only way to get more games made then I guess I'm all for it.
runnin_blue
Banned
I just watched the conference and my initial thought is Sony were too scared to fund it off the bat so they suggested Yu Suzuki do the Kickstarter to gauge interest. I felt it was kinda wrong. But at least it's getting made I suppose.
If that is the case then why the need for a Kickstarter campaign? Surely Sony can afford the $2 million that the campaign is asking for.
They didn't really need $2 million to cross their funding goals. This is a way to gauge interest.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
What games do you envision being pushed through Kickstarter? If it's more stuff like Shenmue or spiritual successors like Bloodstained, I can't see myself complaining.
No issues with this at all, Kickstarter is becoming important to a lot of smaller production teams and this is a PS4 game that they know is attraction to the sort of people that are interested in E3. It benefits Sony and the developer to do this so I think they'd be pretty stupid to not advertise a game that they want and are getting.
I've happily backed quite a few games that weren't using Kickstarter as their sole means of funding and I will happily do it again whenever I see a game that I'm interested in.
I'm not convinced that the $2 million really means anything in real world terms, it's more to do with reassuring the people who are considering investing serious money into the project. In this case I assume that it's going to be Sony and maybe Sega.
Good luck to Yu Suzuki and his team on making what appears to be his dream game, happy to donate money just as I am for any other developers when I believe in what they are doing.
I've happily backed quite a few games that weren't using Kickstarter as their sole means of funding and I will happily do it again whenever I see a game that I'm interested in.
I'm not convinced that the $2 million really means anything in real world terms, it's more to do with reassuring the people who are considering investing serious money into the project. In this case I assume that it's going to be Sony and maybe Sega.
Good luck to Yu Suzuki and his team on making what appears to be his dream game, happy to donate money just as I am for any other developers when I believe in what they are doing.
Poodlestrike
Banned
You think they're only going to get 2 million?
PixyJunket
Member
This is the second Sony sponsored Kickstarter.
It's fucking gross.
They're a Giant Mega Dollars Corporation, if they're interested in these projects, they should put their money up for them.
It's fucking gross.
They're a Giant Mega Dollars Corporation, if they're interested in these projects, they should put their money up for them.
Free PR.
Evangelize a bunch of donors.
Push Kickstarter into the more mainstream gamer consciousness, hopefully in turn promoting more indie projects.
Collect a secondary source of funds, justifying it being on PC, which is necessary as the game needs as large an audience as possible to recoup expenses.
Secure those secondary funds up-front to distribute risk.
Would it have been cool if Sony said "and once the Kickstarter is complete Sony will match the funds raised 1:1"? Sure, and they're probably giving that and then some, but then you'd have people claiming this is Sony directly cloud funding an exclusive. They'll get criticized eitehr way if they use KS and Suzuki clearly wanted to use KS.
The only new precedent is that we already know that the project is backed by a large publisher. In the case of most large Kickstarted games, the developers already have outside financing that triggers when certain Kickstarter goals are met. That's usually how they set the goals to begin with, and it's sometimes the only way for labors of love to get made.
That's exactly what Kickstarter is, and they make no attempts to disguise this fact. If a game could be made another way, they usually won't involve Kickstarter. This has been extremely common in the PC space, and we've been willing to take the risk in order to see classic titles get a revival. If anyone feels uneasy about the way the Kickstarter system works, then they really shouldn't be funding any projects. However, well managed projects have yielded fantastic results in the last few years, and I certainly wouldn't want to go without them.
Sega probably isn't involved in this project. The Kickstarter FAQ states that they licensed the Shenmue IP and assets from Sega, and that Sega owns the first two games so they have no say on whether remakes will get made.
They probably ran the numbers and figured that this game was going to lose money. And really, it still might lose money. New teams to Kickstarter don't have the best records, and if the management isn't prepared for the travails, they can run into all sorts of problems.
It's obvious that Suzuki and Sony have been working on this for a long time. They announced it now because they have finally satisfied all the legal hurdles, and they're ready to jump into preproduction. 2.5 years isn't really all that much time for a major Kickstarter. Star Citizen and Tides of Numenera are going to be longer than that before they release. It may upset people unused to Kickstarter, but that's something they're going to have to learn.
Sony is probably going to be funding Shenmue 3 with $10M+. The Kickstarter exists, not to mitigate risk, but to make sure that there's still some interest in the project, and to see what scope of game they can afford. If this Kickstarter ends up with $10M, then the game will be closer to Suzuki's vision than if it ended with $2M for instance.
Hmm, see I'm inclined to disagree here. Kickstarter is a donation not an investment. Why should they have to disclose where any other money is coming from? Should they provide an open list of all the donors with how much they contributed as well? I think as long as they finish the project it shouldn't matter who gave what money and how much.
Having said, I can see where disclosing outside investments could be good or bad for the Kickstarter. On one hand it could bolster the confidence of those that donate because they know there is a better chance that the project will be completed. On the other hand, it could also make people not give as much knowing that the game's development costs are already at least in part accounted for.
At least a third party like Kickstarter is being used here. Let's be real, Sony could have set a donation page on their own website and pocketed the 5% for themselves and it would have still funded just as fast. In this case, there is at least some independence from Sony whether it's an illusion or not.
Obviously not but that was their original goal and I'm sure the budget is going to be much much higher than that.
Perhaps investment wasn't the best choice of words. They don't have to, but to me, whether inaccurate now, Kickstarter is supposed to feel different than what is has morphed into. Even if just donating toward making a project happen I'd like to have an idea of what level of contribution I'm making toward the total project, not necessarily a detailed breakdown.
2 million dollars is jack shit compar d to the 30+ needed to make the game. That is not risk minimization.