you really should see them as one giant blob, instead of individuals
It's not 74 heroes dodging this laser. It's 1 unit dodging the laser.
I like to think of them as a collective conscienceness. PRE-BORG!
you really should see them as one giant blob, instead of individuals
It's not 74 heroes dodging this laser. It's 1 unit dodging the laser.
You still haven't confirmed you know about grouping or the bright red circle under the player.Let's be clear, I would never argue that any functional game is objectively terrible. When I say it's terrible, I mean I personally find it subjectively terrible. This is implicit in opinions. Then we all give our opinion, and we come to a group idea of whether the game is subjectively good or bad. Seems like Gaf thinks it's pretty good. (I already knew that.)
None of that means I shouldn't give my opinion on what I feel like the game does poorly that affects my enjoyment. The subjectivity of criticism shouldn't need to be explained.
Big post, but not a lot of content, sadly
I mean right off the bat, this is just...wrong. Like, I don't mean to be rude here, but this is flat-out incorrect. Its actually quite plausible to see where your leader is and know where your position is. That's why there's a glowing circle underneath, that's why the weapon of your choice is always over his head, that's why when you're running you're always at the front and the crowd funnels away from you. Even when jumping in chaotic scenes, the bright circle under your leader will tell you where he's gonna land.
Have you ever played the game Viewtiful Joe? In Viewtiful Joe, you collect film canisters scattered around the level to increase your default special meter, which in turn allows you to use fancier moves for longer duration of time. If there wasn't a restriction, you can just use the powers all the time, non-stop, without any strategic thought whatsoever. What this system does is A) it gives you collectibles that you always want to pick up and B) forces use to intelligently use your superpowers. Playing Wonderful 101 is like managing a business; you have to be mindful of all your employees, be wary of competitors on the field, careful not to waste your allotted budget on frivolous expenses. Its a lot to keep up with, but hey, that's why they aren't a lot of business managers! Be when you understand how it works and have all the systems working in harmony with each other, its quite satisfying.
Its a unique form of punishment for getting hit, appropriate to a game about collecting a 101 heroes. You performed poorly, a poor thing has happen to you, do better. Don't get hit so often. Take a second to learn the enemy's moves, their patterns, test out your abilities, experiment with those various systems.
Another comment where I'm not sure what to debate here. You say "it doesn't go well with the core mechanics", and well...I disagree? I think they work just fine? I enjoy them quite well? I've rarely had any issues with adapting to their various situations? I've practiced, paid attention, read guides online, watched videos, applied learned strategies and ideas to the challenges the developers threw at me and succeeded in a satisfactory manner?
I know you tried to dispel the "git gud" comments at the end there, but a lot of this boiled down to "I'm not good at game, therefore game is bad ;_;". I don't think the game is the one with the issue here. I'm not gonna bother quoting the turtles thing, which was a distinct challenge at first, but with practice and patience, knowledge and execution, become easy. Like everything else in life.
I find that learning to do WITHOUT things like the hold A button for weapon size makes you more appreciative when you do get it, and when to use it. I mean, you're already crying about too many systems layered on top of each other, now you want more right from the start?
Its an alternative way of increasing weapon size, and not always preferential. When you draw an item yourself, you can dictate the size, the amount of people, time stops. When you're holding A, you're stuck holding that button while the enemy does his thing and your weapon slowly-but-steadily builds up.
As for the block and dodge being in the shop, that is a bit bizarre, but you can easily buy it right after the prologue with the money you get there and have it for chapter 1, so its not a HUGE issue really.
I agree, the opening 30 minutes should do a better job teaching things, but it still starts off slow enough, and pretty basic compared to later encounters.
Well, this is pretty subjective, but for the most part, I'm a fan of the variety.
One of my main complaints of these 8+ hour action games like Ninja Gaiden 2 or God Hand is how there isn't much variety of terms of pacing. You walk forward, there's a wave of guys, you beat them and then there's another wave, and then another wave, and then another wave, and then another wave. And all those waves there's a boss(who often has his own wave of enemies), then you do it again the next level over and over again for a dozen hours.
Now you say "well, its a beat'em'up, what do you expect!?", but old school beat'em'ups were built around relatively short playthroughs, 30mins-1 hour. Playing God Hand is like playing a reallllllly long game of Final Fight. Yeah, its got a great combat system, but when it looks terrible, no story to give it any kind of motivation, music that doesn't seem to care about anything, and a pacing that's rarely changes(especially with the adaptable difficulty slider), it becomes monotonous.
With Kamiya action games like Viewtiful Joe, Bayonetta, and Wonderful 101, he's always mindful of packing his games with variety. You'll get some great battles, sure, but they're broken up with a puzzle, or an interesting platforming/traversal section, or some funny cutscene, or a shmup level, or a new weapon, or a big boss fight, just every few minutes. He breaks encounters down into those individuals verses, crafting each level to have various peaks and valleys. Yeah, sometimes he goes overboard like that fuckin' Space Harrier level in Bayonetta or one too many turret sections here, but for the most part, I'm all for it.
--
and then there was the story, which I thought was pretty charming overall with a surprisingly good voice cast and localization, but yeah Wonder-Pink is awful and Annoying Kid Character is terrible. More good than bad, though.
But really, a big bulk of this post really sounds like the mom who plays Street Fighter 4 and its really mad because she can't do combos, why didn't this game teach me about match-ups, how do you do that, this is terrible.
Wonderful 101 is a different experience even from other P* action games(already a niche genre), and its not gonna be for everyone. But its not the game fault that you're not good at it, and despite how much you keep saying "I know the basics", if you can't even tell where you are or why the battery system is the way it is, you very clearly do not know the basics.
You don't have to like the game, but at least be honest that most of the defiances are coming from your end of the deal here.
The Wonderful 101 is not mediocre. It's extremely punishing, inaccessible, and unfocused, but the core game is brilliant.
It's the frustrating design elements really drag it down: The way your whole team can be knocked to the ground by a simple attack. The way you can't dodge, attack, or use your multipurpose Wonder Liner without battery meter charge. The way nearly every stage throws minigames with poor controls at you and counts every mistake against your level ranking. The way you're practically forced to replay every mission on all five difficulties multiple times if you want to unlock the bonus characters.
If Kamiya had exercised the same focus and restraint when directing TW101 that he did with Bayonetta, it would be his masterwork. Unfortunately it seems that Bayonetta 2, the sequel he didn't direct, will be a much better game.
You don't have to master it, just learn it. The fact you can play any game more complicated than Pong came from the fact you spent time learning. Go watch someone who doesn't know how to use dual analog sticks try to play Halo.
No one is pretending it doesn't have fundamental flaws, they don't believe it does. Maybe it has some flaws, but not fundamental ones. Requiring a player to learn a new style of game is not a fundamental flaw. (Learning how to play a game and learning how to be good at a game are the same thing, extensions of each other.)
Why "git gud" is a decent point, although probably poorly/rudely expressed:
-If you are not good at something it is likely because you don't understand it. Now imagine someone who doesn't understand the game trying to get their point across to those who do? Those who can see farther see both where that person's sight stops and beyond. Being able to notice this cuts through any argument. Writing a lot of words doesn't spare you from that.
-If you are bad at something, you become frustrated and channel your negative feelings towards the game. Anger is intoxicating. This completely colors your impression of a game and, when it comes down to it, is a practice of distributing blame away from yourself. Once again, what do you think someone who either isn't frustrated or can withstand their frustration see? (Frustration is feeling/being made aware how weak you are.)
You still haven't confirmed you know about grouping or the bright red circle under the player.
Also please respond to JC:
Big post, but not a lot of content, sadly
I mean right off the bat, this is just...wrong. Like, I don't mean to be rude here, but this is flat-out incorrect. Its actually quite plausible to see where your leader is and know where your position is. That's why there's a glowing circle underneath, that's why the weapon of your choice is always over his head, that's why when you're running you're always at the front and the crowd funnels away from you. Even when jumping in chaotic scenes, the bright circle under your leader will tell you where he's gonna land.
Have you ever played the game Viewtiful Joe? In Viewtiful Joe, you collect film canisters scattered around the level to increase your default special meter, which in turn allows you to use fancier moves for longer duration of time. If there wasn't a restriction, you can just use the powers all the time, non-stop, without any strategic thought whatsoever. What this system does is A) it gives you collectibles that you always want to pick up and B) forces use to intelligently use your superpowers. Playing Wonderful 101 is like managing a business; you have to be mindful of all your employees, be wary of competitors on the field, careful not to waste your allotted budget on frivolous expenses. Its a lot to keep up with, but hey, that's why they aren't a lot of business managers! Be when you understand how it works and have all the systems working in harmony with each other, its quite satisfying.
Its a unique form of punishment for getting hit, appropriate to a game about collecting a 101 heroes. You performed poorly, a poor thing has happen to you, do better. Don't get hit so often. Take a second to learn the enemy's moves, their patterns, test out your abilities, experiment with those various systems.
Another comment where I'm not sure what to debate here. You say "it doesn't go well with the core mechanics", and well...I disagree? I think they work just fine? I enjoy them quite well? I've rarely had any issues with adapting to their various situations? I've practiced, paid attention, read guides online, watched videos, applied learned strategies and ideas to the challenges the developers threw at me and succeeded in a satisfactory manner?
I know you tried to dispel the "git gud" comments at the end there, but a lot of this boiled down to "I'm not good at game, therefore game is bad ;_;". I don't think the game is the one with the issue here. I'm not gonna bother quoting the turtles thing, which was a distinct challenge at first, but with practice and patience, knowledge and execution, become easy. Like everything else in life.
I find that learning to do WITHOUT things like the hold A button for weapon size makes you more appreciative when you do get it, and when to use it. I mean, you're already crying about too many systems layered on top of each other, now you want more right from the start?
Its an alternative way of increasing weapon size, and not always preferential. When you draw an item yourself, you can dictate the size, the amount of people, time stops. When you're holding A, you're stuck holding that button while the enemy does his thing and your weapon slowly-but-steadily builds up.
As for the block and dodge being in the shop, that is a bit bizarre, but you can easily buy it right after the prologue with the money you get there and have it for chapter 1, so its not a HUGE issue really.
I agree, the opening 30 minutes should do a better job teaching things, but it still starts off slow enough, and pretty basic compared to later encounters.
Well, this is pretty subjective, but for the most part, I'm a fan of the variety.
One of my main complaints of these 8+ hour action games like Ninja Gaiden 2 or God Hand is how there isn't much variety of terms of pacing. You walk forward, there's a wave of guys, you beat them and then there's another wave, and then another wave, and then another wave, and then another wave. And all those waves there's a boss(who often has his own wave of enemies), then you do it again the next level over and over again for a dozen hours.
Now you say "well, its a beat'em'up, what do you expect!?", but old school beat'em'ups were built around relatively short playthroughs, 30mins-1 hour. Playing God Hand is like playing a reallllllly long game of Final Fight. Yeah, its got a great combat system, but when it looks terrible, no story to give it any kind of motivation, music that doesn't seem to care about anything, and a pacing that's rarely changes(especially with the adaptable difficulty slider), it becomes monotonous.
With Kamiya action games like Viewtiful Joe, Bayonetta, and Wonderful 101, he's always mindful of packing his games with variety. You'll get some great battles, sure, but they're broken up with a puzzle, or an interesting platforming/traversal section, or some funny cutscene, or a shmup level, or a new weapon, or a big boss fight, just every few minutes. He breaks encounters down into those individuals verses, crafting each level to have various peaks and valleys. Yeah, sometimes he goes overboard like that fuckin' Space Harrier level in Bayonetta or one too many turret sections here, but for the most part, I'm all for it.
and then there was the story, which I thought was pretty charming overall with a surprisingly good voice cast and localization, but yeah Wonder-Pink is awful and Annoying Kid Character is terrible. More good than bad, though.
But really, a big bulk of this post really sounds like the mom who plays Street Fighter 4 and its really mad because she can't do combos, why didn't this game teach me about match-ups, how do you do that, this is terrible.
Wonderful 101 is a different experience even from other P* action games(already a niche genre), and its not gonna be for everyone. But its not the game fault that you're not good at it, and despite how much you keep saying "I know the basics", if you can't even tell where you are or why the battery system is the way it is, you very clearly do not know the basics.
You don't have to like the game, but at least be honest that most of the defiances are coming from your end of the deal here.
You say that it's not the game's fault that I'm not good at it. Well, if there's no tutorial and there aren't adequate hints as to how to play, then I'd argue that that's exactly who's fault it is. I've put in 6-7 hours. I've put in effort on my side and the game has given me basically fucking nothing as an education on its side. That's it's right, if it wants to be hardcore like that, but it's still the game's fundamental failing in not teaching players what they need to know. This is what I was on about when I said that the shit / non-existent tutorial has repercussions that last the rest of the game. These are issues coming from the game, and NOT my end.
You have perfected my vision..Something I made for the W101 Hard Mode Let's Play I was planning on doing before I got super busy with work stuff.
http://a.pomf.se/gmempp.webm
Something I made for the W101 Hard Mode Let's Play I was planning on doing before I got super busy with work stuff.
http://a.pomf.se/gmempp.webm
Replying to a long post like the OP's with a misspelled two word post, of which many in this thread seem to approve, is a dismissal of his argument. And I find to dismiss his argument rather than engage it is absolutely being defensive. Those "git gud" posts are what I'm mocking, not those who politely ask the OP to play through the entire game before formulating an opinion.So having a discussion about a well liked game in a thread where the title says it isn't very good is being defensive now? That seems a little dismissive. You can hardly just expect everyone to agree when some of OP's issues could be the fault of the player.
Something I made for the W101 Hard Mode Let's Play I was planning on doing before I got super busy with work stuff.
http://a.pomf.se/gmempp.webm
Let's be clear, I would never argue that any functional game is objectively terrible. When I say it's terrible, I mean I personally find it subjectively terrible. This is implicit in opinions. Then we all give our opinion, and we come to a group idea of whether the game is subjectively good or bad. Seems like Gaf thinks it's pretty good. (I already knew that.)
None of that means I shouldn't give my opinion on what I feel like the game does poorly that affects my enjoyment. The subjectivity of criticism shouldn't need to be explained.
Alright imma go play another hour or two. Really not looking forward to it (which is the problem, currently). But I -WILL- beat this game, if only to find out if the nirvana some people speak of is at the other side. When I do I'll come back and report.
But I -WILL- beat this game, if only to find out if the nirvana some people speak of is at the other side. When I do I'll come back and report.
It's impossible to see exactly where your group leader is and what he's doing. He's far too small on a screen filled with action to be sure of where he is in 3D space at any time, and the problem is doubled when he's in the air / jumping. The fact that he is surrounded by a group of 30-100 other tiny characters, a group that is of variable size and shape makes it impossible to pin down where your particular guy is half the time. When you get hit, you're never quite sure you'll be hit until you see your guy go flying.
But I made it through Bayonetta and MGS Rising without any problems or many deaths, and even tried a couple of levels on hard in those games and had tons of fun.
This is a different problem to other character action games. There, you feel overwhelmed by enemies' attacks: their patterns might be hard to read, they might be too fast, you might not be sure what move is the right one to use against them. This is the point of the genre. That is the challenge you're looking for. Here, the problem is that I can't read what's going on at least 50% of the time. I can figure out the enemy patterns and what I need to do, I'm just not sure exactly where I am relative to an enemy so I can 't do it. That's not the point of the genre, and it's not fun.
Not only that, but there are far too many game systems layered on top of each other here. The worst is the battery system. This means that if you want to draw a new weapon, block or dodge, you need battery. In practice, this means that you will often find yourself running around an arena, unable to attack or defend until your battery recharges a sufficient amount. In a game with this much going on already, this isn't really acceptable, or necessary. How does this restriction on your core abilities make the game better?
The item system is tucked away on the gamepad and never explained.
Another huge mistake is making you have to collect your men every time you get hit. This leads to a constant loop of getting hit, collecting your men, getting hit, collecting your men, and so on.
Single large enemies are difficult but can be fun. They have an extremely annoying habit of attacking right as you're finished drawing a weapon but you can manage them, because you only need to read them and you at the same time. But the game constantly throws more than you can handle at you, seemingly intentionally.
A perfect example is the turtles. This is an enemy you've never seen before. You've just gotten a new weapon you will obviously need to use to destroy it. Drawing said weapon is tricky at first, trickier than the old ones, but manageable. Add all of this together and good game design would be one turtle on its own, so you get used to drawing the new weapon while you learn the attacks and weaknesses of the turtle.
It's obvious you need to block a turtle's 'stomp', flip the turtle over and kill it.
In particular, things like the faster draw speed or ability to hold A to increase weapon size would have massively increased my enjoyment of the game so far. Putting the block and dodge behind the in-game paywall rather than in a tutorial as the base mechanics is just bizarre as well.
I'll add the total lack of a functional tutorial in here as well. You've made a hardcore action game with a visual exterior that will obviously attract kids and other not-so-hardcore players. Would it actually kill you to teach these people how to play the game?
Why then is the game so insistent on taking you way from the base action Platinum have worked so hard to craft only to put you into poorly designed, terribly explained out-of-genre sections? (What I mean by that is turret shooting sections, rail jumping sections, flying sections, basically broken hang-gliding sections etc).
I won't go into this too much because this stuff is far more subjective than the rest and less interesting to debate but what starts as a fun, whimsical adventure becomes one-note and dull a couple of hours in. The female characters were what swayed me, their portrayal is borderline sexist at best, and more importantly just tiresome and cringeworthy. The jokes start to fall flat. I can only watch Blue punch Green after an off hand comment so many times before it loses its charm. I can only watch Pink act like a moronic valley girl so many times, you know?
Use guts when they try to stomp, use fist on the underside, one is dead in 10 seconds. Truly, the most unplayable difficulty. With its optional Easy and Very Easy modes available.
Bart: I thought you wanted a challenge.
Lisa: Duh. A challenge I could do.
Tip them over with spike guts iirc
The spike guts is an ability you have to buy, (and I didn't have when I fought the turtles). Can you see the problem now? The game is not "playable" enough until you unlock certain abilities.
Finally, I don't get why people think depth necessarily equates to a super high learning curve. The ideal game should be easy to learn, hard to master. Being really obtuse and hard to learn doesn't add anything to a game or make it more deep.
A game that takes hours to click is not easy to learn. I have seen very few people claim they got the system quickly. Almost everyone who loves the game seems to claim it takes hours before it clicksThat's... basically what TW101 is.
The game is a lot less "heavy" in combat than the likes of Bayonetta and the functions are a lot more primitive. There are a lot less combos and it is incredibly more forgiving with context sensitive set pieces. The enemies and tempo in general are a lot slower. You create weapons by drawing primitive shapes, and logic dictates that bigger = better. If you know how mechanics work from the outset and you're dropped off in the training room during the loading screens, chances are you have a solid grasp of what exactly the "core" of the game revolves around, and most of the combos are just straightforward button strings. It's simple to understand but it's hard to apply when you get down to the nitty-gritty meta of the game, and that's where the difficulty comes from. It's absolutely piss-easy to understand how to perform actions in the game. The difficulty comes from when you're applying them.
While most of the "get good" posts are rather shallow here, dismissing it outright is a fallacist's fallacy. There is merit in saying that you're either not doing a good enough job in understanding the mechanics at play, and if you do and still don't enjoy the experience then it probably just isn't a game for you, which is fine. Personally I can't stand games like Dark Souls and feel like they have an insane amount of trial and error but I understand why people like them and that there's a certain mindset you have to acknowledge to appreciate the game. It's the same principle here. TW101 is a very different breed of action game and it's not the most perfect execution of it, but it's far from a mediocre experience because it knows what it wants to be, and the things it does it performs most admirably.
Alright imma go play another hour or two. Really not looking forward to it (which is the problem, currently). But I -WILL- beat this game, if only to find out if the nirvana some people speak of is at the other side. When I do I'll come back and report.
That's fantastic, lol. If true I have only one hour or so left before I'm supposed to get good.
... gulp...
The spike guts is an ability you have to buy, (and I didn't have when I fought the turtles). Can you see the problem now? The game is not "playable" enough until you unlock certain abilities.
A game that takes hours to click is not easy to learn. I have seen very few people claim they got the system quickly. Almost everyone who loves the game seems to claim it takes hours before it clicks
I honestly feel that this "learning curve" wouldn't be a problem if the camera wasn't so damn awful. It's too far when you want it to be tight, too close when you need it to to be wide, and angled behind an object when you need a clear line of sight. If the camera work was better, then people can learn without being frustrated. Most of my frustration with the game boils down to taking cheap hits due to the poor camera, like falling during platforming sequences due to the tight camera, or taking hits by enemies hidden behind a gigantic fence. And when all the damage adds up and leads to you dying after one hit from a new enemy, it's extremely frustrating.
You say you're doing your best, but answer this....
Are you a different animal AND the same beast?
But seriously these type of games require a change in mentality. They are built for players to challenge and question themselves. You do not have the privilege or comfort of using the design as an excuse here. It's more of acknowledging what you're doing wrong.
I'm glad that you're still willing to play through it, but your thinking is flawed if you really want to approach this. It's best to give up on defensive thoughts of how the game is to blame, and start considering your options. If that doesn't appeal to you, you have to admit defeat and accept that it isn't for you. Right now it just sounds like your refuse to respect the design.
[Also great posts by Riposte and Viewtiful JC]
Put your pride aside and learn the game in easy mode because the basics mechanics are all explained well.My take on this: I love not being told stuff so long as it doesn't have to do with core mechanics. I feel like the basics of the game should be clearly explained. Or, I suppose not 'should be', but I prefer them to be. Figuring out core mechanics is not good game design to me.
He isn't wrong though. First playthrough I was doing pretty badly. You learn the mechanics and get the upgrades then on NG+ you get way better.
If you have play through the entire game once just to learn the mechanics properly then...no thanks.
If you have play through the entire game once just to learn the mechanics properly then...no thanks.
4. The mini-games / genre switches
The game has a solid action system at its core. It's let down by the camera and other issues I've mentioned, but it's solid. Why then is the game so insistent on taking you way from the base action Platinum have worked so hard to craft only to put you into poorly designed, terribly explained out-of-genre sections? (What I mean by that is turret shooting sections, rail jumping sections, flying sections, basically broken hang-gliding sections etc).
This stuff feels like it comprises about a third of the game, and it's sadly uniformly garbage. Again, an editor would have been great here. "I love your passion, guys, but this does not make the game better and needs to be cut." They desperately needed someone to say this to them.
If you have play through the entire game once just to learn the mechanics properly then...no thanks.
If you have play through the entire game once just to learn the mechanics properly then...no thanks.
The more I tried to get into this game, the more I hated it.
Im sorry. Kamiya is a fantastic game designer but he needs a filter. TW101 is what happens when you let him do what he wants.
I finally gave up and sold my copy last week. If I have spent 6 months with your game and I still dont have the desire to replay it, its crap. Platinum or no platinum.
And before you repost saurs video for the hundredth time, yeah. I learnt to do all that. I dont care. The game isnt fun.