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[APZonerunner]

Always surprised by how big the split is between people either loving the RTD era (Eccleston and Tennant) and hating Moffat (Smith and Capaldi) and people who believe the opposite.

For me, I always liked the concept of the show when it came back in 2005 (I had only seen a couple of Douglas Adams Tom Baker stories before this), but I always felt it never lived up to it's potential during Eccleston's/Tennant's years. Outside of some good episodes/moments it felt far too schmaltzy, and almost every episode was resolved by someone pressing a magic button when it was time for the story to end. I like Eccleston and Tennant as Doctors, but I felt that the writing, for the most part, was pretty crap.

I much, much prefer Moffat's era. He's not perfect by any means, but I see series 5 as a bona fide BBC classic. Series 6 was still entertaining (and not half as difficult to follow as people are claiming - all you need to do is pay attention), but I did feel that there was a big drop in quality in series 7. It became a bit too pleased with itself, the same problem Sherlock had after a while. Series 8 was great again though.

But yeah, as others have said, classic series is the real deal. Although I never could get into the post-Tom Baker Doctors. The 80s were tough.

I think Series 4 and 5 are where the show was in its absolute stride (even if as I said above I think if I was to give a score to each episode and average it out, Series 3 would come out with the highest score) but I do think Moffat lost his way for a while there harder than RTD ever did. I think in a decade or two Smith will be looked back upon as a man born to play the part who was let down in the writing department for two of his three runs.

Moffat never wrote a bad episode, per se, he just got tangled up in arc-based stories he wanted to tell which didn't always work; I think where the show in his years fell flat was actually often in guest writers, who weren't rewritten or eyed as extensively by Moffat as RTD. The biggest thing to RTD's credit was when an episode completely collapsed in the script phase (The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit) or when the writer was pushing to make the story very different to the original intent/source (Human Nature/The Family of Blood) RTD himself charged in to fix it (and never took a co-writer credit!) and I think you can definitely feel Moffat's more hands-off approach in his era, and multiple episodes suffer for it.

I think Moffat has handled Capaldi much better, though, and I think part of that is because under Capaldi's lead the show has reverted to a slower, more introspective version of the show than anything since RTD's 2005 vision; it's sort of a halfway house now between that and the classic show, and I think Moffat is writing it more comfortably and co-writing more frequently.

I think the line is always driven quite hard between fans of one era and the other because as similar as RTD and Moffat are, they represent two very different paradigms for the show - RTD always, always writes from the emotion first and worries about the mechanics later - this is probably most evident in Last of the Time Lords and The End of Time, both deeply flawed stories mechanically. Moffat is really the opposite; he likes intricate machines, clever mechanics, and then slots the emotion in atop that. The cool thing about Blink isn't Sally and Larry(?) falling for each other, it's the cool, scary time travel twist. Conversely, the cool thing about Gridlock isn't the mechanics of how the city died out and all that, it's the emotional pay-off in the Old Rugged Cross scene and the ending. River's a great example of this, too - a clever plot, but the relationship never truly really felt earned to me.

So, yeah. I wrote a lot there - but I regard RTD's who as having a stronger emotional core, and Moffat's as being more tightly written (but it sometimes trips itself up anyway trying to be clever); and I think largely how people feel about each approach just depends entirely on how they're wired as a person.

 

[Exterminieren]

I think the RTD years were very daring, to be honest, just in a very 21st century way. Moffat's years have fallen into a formula which works for them more - the template set by RTD, which was daring then but then worked and stuck as a result - but I really do think it was very daring, at its most daring, perhaps the most daring it ever was apart from 1963 and 1966 - in 2005 and 2006.

I'll definitely spot you that RTD's era was incredibly daring, but I absolutely don't share your assessment of Moffat having fallen into a formula with his series. Every series is different in format, style and technique, in a way that RTD didn't touch. After RTD's innovations in series development in 2005, he was content to put out three very similar series afterwards- all high quality, of course, but not much stylistic variation apart from outliers like Midnight. Moffat, for better or worse, has made four vastly different series, with only series 5 being all that comparable to RTD's stylings.

 

[Chris1]

Not sure if it's true or not but I've heard that line wasn't scripted and David Tennant said it because he didn't want to leave as the Doctor, makes it so much worse

 

[Boem]

Not sure if it's true or not but I've heard that line wasn't scripted and David Tennant said it because he didn't want to leave as the Doctor, makes it so much worse

Not true, definitely scripted, and David Tennant was the person who decided he wanted to leave. Nobody fired him. Sounds like the kind of claim someone on Instagram makes and everybody immediately believes because it's dramatic.

The only actors who were actively fired from the role were Hartnell (because he was too ill to continue), Colin Baker (because the show began to run into trouble very deeply at this point), and, in a way, McCoy (but only because the entire show was cancelled) and McGann (again, only because an entire series with him was never commissioned). The rest of the actors all chose to leave. Even if you like playing the part it's not the smartest thing for an actor who wants to keep working years after their work as the Doctor to do it for more than a couple of years. It's easy to get typecast if you hang around in a genreshow like this for too long, and the show is built to support a change like that. Every actor knows that going in.

I doubt we'll ever see anyone break Tom Baker's 7 year record (and he really didn't have any noteworthy acting parts after Doctor Who).

 

[genjiZERO]

So to be clear, I really liked Smith, and thought he came to his own by the end of the series. My beef is with Mofatt for the following reasons.

Spoiler

Forcing River Song down our throats even though she doesn't fit the universe nor does she have chemistry with a single person on the show.

Ageing the Doctor by double which is a huge slap to the previous incarnations. And doing it in two episodes no less.

Using the sonic screwdriver like a magic wand. To be fair Davies does this too, but it's on another level with Moffat. For example, in the Crimson Horror where the Doctor jumps into a cupboard after being turned into a zombie (or whatever) and uses the sonic screwdriver to make himself normal again. Also, retconning the sonic screwdriver to "the sonic" is grating.

Keeping companions waaaayyyyyyy too long, and giving them (Rory and Amy) the dumbest reasons to be arguing again, and just generally screwing with their characters.

Incessant mystery box story telling.

 

[Boem]

So to be clear, I really liked Smith, and thought he came to his own by the end of the series. My beef is with Mofatt for the following reasons.

Spoiler

Forcing River Song down our throats even though she doesn't fit the universe nor does she have chemistry with a single person on the show.

Ageing the Doctor by double which is a huge slap to the previous incarnations. And doing it in two episodes no less.

Using the sonic screwdriver like a magic wand. To be fair Davies does this too, but it's on another level with Moffat. For example, in the Crimson Horror where the Doctor jumps into a cupboard after being turned into a zombie (or whatever) and uses the sonic screwdriver to make himself normal again. Also, retconning the sonic screwdriver to "the sonic" is grating.

Keeping companions waaaayyyyyyy too long, and giving them (Rory and Amy) the dumbest reasons to be arguing again, and just generally screwing with their characters.

Incessant mystery box story telling.

How did he retcon the Sonic Screwdriver by giving it a nickname? They never stopped calling it the sonic screwdriver, the Doctor just uses shorthand sometimes. I think that started way before Moffat too.

I actually appreciated River and the more detailed storylines of Moffat. It's the biggest change fans of the modern shows have had to endure (bigger than the change from Eccleston to Tennant, tonally the show didn't change that much) - and that's why I think people who fell in love with the show during the Tennant years (and who weren't familiar with the older series) had a hard time adapting to the new tone of the show. I loved how new it started to feel, and that they started to explore different types of storylines, which I think is what makes Doctor Who so special - you can throw the entire show on its head every once in a while. If River doesn't fit the Who Universe, Rose and her family don't either - we'd still be stuck with actors playing a girl and two of her teachers following an old man going on adventures where they learn about historical figures. I think they had gotten everything they were going to get out of the Russel T Davies-style of worldbuilding.

I agree that Moffat relies to much on the mystery box-way of storytelling though. Thankfully he seems to realize that by now.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

I was rewatching some of Tennant's episodes and what strikes me most is that they seem more grounded; that sounds ridiculous about a show where a guy fights dinosaurs and genocidal pepper pots on a daily basis, but the surrounding characters felt more like normal people dealing with abnormal situations.

I still prefer Moffat's era though. It's full of problems, and yes the mystery box is incredibly irritating (particularly in the middle two seasons, River & Clara, sigh), but the writing as APZ says is consistently tighter. There were some real stinkers in RTD's era. And sometimes several aired together in sequence.

 

[StealthGoblin]

Moffat era episodes have really awful endings. He can't write twists for toffee. They are all very good premises on paper but by god the endings are awful.

Good quality science fiction is rare now. It is more melodrama than anything else.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Moffat era episodes have really awful endings. He can't write twists for toffee. They are all very good premises on paper but by god the endings are awful.

Good quality science fiction is rare now. It is more melodrama than anything else.

Lest we forget when it comes to awful endings RTD takes the biscuit, cake, and whatever other sweet treat you can imagine.

This was after an admittedly fantastic twist.

 

[Ventilaator]

Lest we forget when it comes to awful endings RTD takes the biscuit, cake, and whatever other sweet treat you can imagine.

This was after an admittedly fantastic twist.

Moffat does one of those like three times per season, and yet it's still "Last of the Time Lords sure was bad, huh?"

I don't get it.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Moffat does one of those like three times per season, and yet it's still "Last of the Time Lords sure was bad, huh?"

I don't get it.

I'm not claiming Moffat's innocent of it. Just that RTD isn't either. And I don't think even Wedding of River Song (a turd of an episode) culminated in such a mess as "floating Jesus Doctor". Again, this is from someone that adored Sound of Drums and the whole Mr. Saxon build up, right down to the cheesy Scissor Sisters scene,

People attribute all these negative aspects to Moffat, and despite his spotty track record it's really not fair. I've even seen people moan about how "kiddy" and "moronic" the series has become, then blab about how their favourite episodes are Blink and Girl in the Fireplace. No self-awareness whatsoever.

 

[Ventilaator]

People attribute all these negative aspects to Moffat, and despite his spotty track record it's really not fair. I've even seen people moan about how "kiddy" and "moronic" the series has become, then blab about how their favourite episodes are Blink and Girl in the Fireplace. No self-awareness whatsoever.

I'm not seeing the disconnect here. Moffat is not immune from criticism just because Blink was great, and liking Blink doesn't mean that anything negative you have to say about the rest of Moffat's output is invalid.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

I'm not seeing the disconnect here. Moffat is not immune from criticism just because Blink was great, and liking Blink doesn't mean that anything negative you have to say about the rest of Moffat's output is invalid.

I'm referring to the rare case where people can manage to attribute to Moffat is negative things following his taking over of the show, and ignorant to the fact he wrote for the show beforehand. It's rare, but it happens.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I think Moffat was a terrific writer who has floundered as a show-runner. Different skill sets, to be sure.

He's also overly in love with his own pet concepts, which as show-runner he has nobody to check him.

All that said, I think he's learned from his mistakes and the last series was a big leap ahead, even if it did feature a few total duds.

Now, my beef is more with Matt Smith in the role than Moffat. Even in his well-written stories, he was semi-insufferable.

 

[Protome]

Captain Jack Harkness: My first exposure to him was when I watched Torchwood Miracle Day, so when he showed up in World War II London as a time traveler, I was really shocked. But his character -- albeit a bit on heavy on the American stereotype -- was extremely entertaining and I always looked forward to his appearances. I thought he played off well with both Doctors. I think I'll go back and watch Torchwood after I'm caught up so I can continue his adventures.

You should definitely watch Torchwood. Series One is a bit rough but it comes into its own in Season 2 (and has its own share of heart wrenching moments...) Children of Earth was great too, Miracle Day was weirdly slow, boring and overally felt really aimless and pointless. It was a weird attempt to appeal to an American audience that ended up just killing the entire series.

 

[Patryn]

As much as I love Ten (he's my Doctor), he clearly had a huge ego. Remember this is a guy who at one point declared himself the Timelord Victorious and basically thought of himself as a god, able to change time on his whims.

He really loved being himself, and I think that final line was about how he could talk a big game about sacrificing himself for others, he actually wasn't that fond of the idea at the end.

For instance I couldn't see Nine or Eleven saying that at the end.

Canonically it could also be because if you add up the year counts, Ten was one of the Doctor's shortest lifespans. I think Ten only existed for a couple decades, if that, compared to centuries for his other incarnations.

 

[Savitar]

RTD and Moffat both have had some duds during their runs, no denying that. But I find the problem with Moffat is he's too consumed with trying to be "clever" and leaving a legacy and it's what has caused him trouble. Definitely a better writer than a show runner.

 

[Sulik2]

Just get ready for series 5 and 6. They are fantastic. The Impossible Astronaut and the Day of the Moon are the best episodes of new Who.

 

[BoogerFart]

I thought 10's goodbye was sad until I saw 11's. I was on the treadmill that episode. Cried like a baby haha

 

[DistortionOfReality]

Everyone went on and on about wanting the show to return to the anthology format.

I really think the opposite - the show was much better with an overarching mystery tying it all together, and as much as I love Peter Capaldi as an actor, and as the Doctor, I thought a lot of the most recent series was some serious trash.

But I don't understand why people seem to vilify the two parters, and the long running big story tie-ins

 

[genjiZERO]

How did he retcon the Sonic Screwdriver by giving it a nickname? They never stopped calling it the sonic screwdriver, the Doctor just uses shorthand sometimes. I think that started way before Moffat too.

I actually appreciated River and the more detailed storylines of Moffat. It's the biggest change fans of the modern shows have had to endure (bigger than the change from Eccleston to Tennant, tonally the show didn't change that much) - and that's why I think people who fell in love with the show during the Tennant years (and who weren't familiar with the older series) had a hard time adapting to the new tone of the show. I loved how new it started to feel, and that they started to explore different types of storylines, which I think is what makes Doctor Who so special - you can throw the entire show on its head every once in a while. If River doesn't fit the Who Universe, Rose and her family don't either - we'd still be stuck with actors playing a girl and two of her teachers following an old man going on adventures where they learn about historical figures. I think they had gotten everything they were going to get out of the Russel T Davies-style of worldbuilding.

I agree that Moffat relies to much on the mystery box-way of storytelling though. Thankfully he seems to realize that by now.

I just finding him call it his "sonic" is irritating. Tennant did it too, but most of the time he called it a sonic screwdriver. Smith called it a "sonic" almost 100% of the time though. I'm more annoyed that the modern show uses it both way too much and also like a magic wand though.

I'm not saying River Song doesn't fit, I'm saying I strongly dislike her character. In fact, fleshing out companions as people with lives outside of the TARDIS is one of the things the modern show gets right.

Also, I'm saying that the actress doesn't have chemistry with any of the other actors particularly Smith who she's supposed to be in love with. If you want to do romance properly for the show it needs to be done like with (Davison era spoiler)

Spoiler

Davison and Tegan. It's never explicitly said they are a couple. In fact, Davison complains that a proper romance is something he wishes the old show had. But it's extremely transparent that there is something going on between he and Tegan. They go off along together constantly, they communicate without talking, and when she finally leaves it's pure heartbreak.

So speaking of romances, here's my personal opinion on the various romances the Doctor has had over the years.

Spoiler

1. Pertwee and Jo. He's totally in the friend-zone, but damn, you can really see how much he cares for her. When she leaves to go off with hippie scientist homeboy you can see how heartbroken he is. Apparently, the reason Pertwee ended up leaving is because of Jo leaving and because of the death of the actor who played the Master.

Spoiler

2. Tom Baker and Romana 2. I never got the vibe that they were dating per se, but they are definitely shagging. You can see the lust in Baker's eyes. Fun fact, the two actors were actually married for a short time. And yeah you can tell.

Spoiler

3. Davison and Tegan. I already mentioned it before. But this is how you do a love story right. It's so subtle, but you can feel it.

Spoiler

4. Eccleston/Tennant and Rose. Personally, I think Eccleston and Piper had a lot more chemistry than Tennant and Piper did. But like I said earlier in the thread going through it all again, Eccleston is the better Doctor in the end. It felt natural between Eccleston and Rose. It was subtle. When it finally came to Tennant it was a plot point. I think that's why if felt more unnatural. But I don't want to sound too extreme because Tennant is good and doesn't work well with Piper

I think Moffat was a terrific writer who has floundered as a show-runner. Different skill sets, to be sure.

He's also overly in love with his own pet concepts, which as show-runner he has nobody to check him.

All that said, I think he's learned from his mistakes and the last series was a big leap ahead, even if it did feature a few total duds.

Now, my beef is more with Matt Smith in the role than Moffat. Even in his well-written stories, he was semi-insufferable.

Yes, I agree with you here. His stories are some of the best from the RTD days. He's just not good at evolving the world.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Everyone went on and on about wanting the show to return to the anthology format.

I really think the opposite - the show was much better with an overarching mystery tying it all together, and as much as I love Peter Capaldi as an actor, and as the Doctor, I thought a lot of the most recent series was some serious trash.

But I don't understand why people seem to vilify the two parters, and the long running big story tie-ins

Having binge-watched the show through Matt Smith's departure, the anthology format (with a touch of running mystery) was superior. It's nice to have a tie-in, but when it becomes an overall arc, it all gets bogged down.

 

[Neverwas]

I'm rewatching the series now (on s3), and the RTD years are just so much better. Moffat's Doctor is too insular. All roads lead back to the Doctor in some way or another, and no plot exists without him. Like Sony's piss poor attempt at Spiderman and Oscorp. RTD gave us an entire universe, with the doctor just another piece of it.

 

[Volimar]

A bit of a bump but Iwanted to share this video I just saw. So apparently the National Television Awards has something called Special Recognition, where....well you just need to watch. This is David Tennant's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li_WIjv53pI

 

[Toxi]

What are you talking about? Classic Who is like classic literature compared to that plebeian bullshit that's the show now.

LOL this is some great comedy

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Tennant. One of the best Doctors and as of next month one of the best on-screen Marvel villains (probably.)