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[thepotatoman]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/28/man-calls-suicide-line-police-kill-him.html

“The only person Justin threatened was himself and I honestly don’t think he wanted to die.”

Minutes later, two St. Johns County Sheriff’s deputies, 26-year-old Jonas Carballosa and 32-year-old Kyle Braig, arrived at the home, armed with assault rifles, and told Kaitlyn to wait outside.

“I thought they were going into war,” she remembered thinking when she first saw the large guns. Within moments, Justin was shot dead.

George Way said the initial report he received from Det. Mike Smith detailed an incident wherein his officers said they were attacked by Justin with a knife. Way said Smith told him Justin had threatened Kaitlyn. Kaitlyn denies this.

Denise Way, Justin’s mom, said that the detective relayed to her that “they told Justin to drop the knife and he didn’t—so they shot him because that’s what we do.”

Denise said Smith then told her about “this new trend in law-enforcement now—it’s called suicide by cop.” She said Smith explained “suicide by cop” is when suicidal people provoke the police in an effort to end their own lives.

She said Smith wouldn’t tell her family where or how many times their son was shot.

Justin’s parents do not believe their son was a threat, because they think Justin was shot while still lying in bed.

“If Justin was coming after them with a knife, at 6-foot-4, wouldn’t there be blood splattered all over the room?” George said.

Way’s parents brought Justin’s mattress to the curb after his death. George says he believes there was a bullet dug out of the bed from a hole found in the middle of it. He also said the blood was contained entirely within the mattress, and that it did not hit the walls or the floor.

“The only person Justin threatened was himself and I honestly don't think he wanted to die.”

In a phone interview with Commander Chuck Mulligan of the St. Johns County Sheriff's Office, The Daily Beast asked if it was standard procedure to bring assault rifles, but not mental-health professionals, to a scene where someone is suicidal.

“If the deputies feel that that is the appropriate weapon system to use, then yes,” said Mulligan.

If the deputies used tasers and one prong missed, Mulligan said, they might be left in a difficult and potentially dangerous situation.

“They were in a very tight space within a residence,” he said.

Mulligan added that the difference between an assault rifle and a handgun would not have affected the outcome in Justin Way’s case.

“Whether it’s a rifle or not, in many senses, is a non-issue,” he said. “A bullet comes out of a handgun, a bullet comes out of a rifle.”

This wasn’t the first time that law enforcement in the area had been involved in a fatal shooting. One of the two officers that went into Justin Way’s home, Kyle Braig, was involved in a fatal shooting with a knife-wielding man five months ago. A few days after Way was killed, another suicidal man was injured by St Johns County deputies.

On Facebook, Jonas Carballosa, the second deputy involved in the Justin Way shooting, once posted the following quote: “Most people respect the badge. Everyone respects the gun.”

Way’s parents said they do not ever want to call the police again—for anything.

Kaitlyn Lyons said she hopes the police rethink how guns are used in cases where people are calling about those who are suicidal or seeking help.

“I think they should come in using other things,” she said. “And I think they definitely need to figure out how to handle suicidal people.”

It's no wonder "suicide by cop" is apparently a thing when cops first and only answer to a suicidal person is to aim their guns at him and threaten to kill him. As if threatening to kill someone is exactly how to solve a situation where that person wants to die.

Look at their statements about using assault rifles instead of tasers, and talking about the house like a combat situation instead of his residence. They talk like they went into the situation like it was a freaking war zone, not fulfilling a public service, and we're supposed to be surprised when things go bad like this?

This isn't an issue of good cops vs bad cops. These cops apparently were just following policy. The problem is the policy, and the mindset that allows those policies to get put in place. The whole system is disgusting as it is now, and it needs changing fast.

 

[Red Mage]

Suicide by cop isn't a new thing. It's a well-known issue and I'm pretty sure standard procedure isn't to bring rifles. What the heck...?

 

[Beelzebufo]

Holy shit, if nothing else that detective should be fired solely because his use of language. "It's what we do" and "suicide by cop" are pretty much the worst quotes you could get from a police officer in a story like this.

lol "if we used tasers, someone could have been hurt!"

 

[MikeDip]

Suicide by cop isn't a new thing. It's a well-known issue and I'm pretty sure standard procedure isn't to bring rifles. What the heck...?

I was going to say this exact sentence.

 

[Stinkles]

There are possibly over 37000 police departments in America but nobody is 100% sure. That in itself is insane.

 

[Acerac]

"Way’s parents said they do not ever want to call the police again—for anything."

I don't blame them.

It's sad how many people are starting to follow suit, and how little it matters.

 

[McDougles]

1. You never know what an unknown party has inside a house in a country where semi-automatic rifles can be openly carried on the street. Bringing in rifles, in this sense, is likely justified.

2. He had a fucking knife in an enclosed space within 18 feet. That's more than enough for procedure to dictate the use of deadly force. If they're close enough to shoot down at him in bed, he's close enough to lunge at someone and attack with his knife in his room.

3. That detective is fucking terrible when talking to the public. When that's mostly what you do (outside of paperwork), maybe think about working in a different field? Maybe not be the point man?

4. The author seems to be a blogger, not a journalist. The writing reflect as such.

This is coming from a Canadian that believes the right to bear arms is fucking insane, btw.

 

[Funky Papa]

On Facebook, Jonas Carballosa, the second deputy involved in the Justin Way shooting, once posted the following quote: “Most people respect the badge. Everyone respects the gun.”

Hooooooly shit.

 

[Snaku]

"Way’s parents said they do not ever want to call the police again—for anything."

I don't blame them.

Who could blame them? The militarization of the police is eerily starting to resemble Escape from New York.

 

[zeemumu]

Suicide by cop isn't a new thing. It's a well-known issue and I'm pretty sure standard procedure isn't to bring rifles. What the heck...?

I assumed assault rifles were only approved in extreme danger situations. Threatening a suicidal person with a gun seems counter-productive. I know this gets brought up a lot, but could they not taze him from that distance?

 

[phaonaut]

1. You never know what an unknown party has inside a house in a country where semi-automatic rifles can be openly carried on the street. Bringing in rifles, in this sense, is likely justified.

2. He had a fucking knife in an enclosed space within 18 feet. That's more than enough for procedure to dictate the use of deadly force. If they're close enough to shoot down at him in bed, he's close enough to lunge at someone and attack with his knife in his room.

3. That detective is fucking terrible when talking to the public. When that's mostly what you do (outside of paperwork), maybe think about working in a different field? Maybe not be the point man?

4. The author seems to be a blogger, not a journalist. The writing reflect as such.

This is coming from a Canadian that believes the right to bear arms is fucking insane, btw.

If you are able to apply so much commonsense to this, they why would the officers go in at all? Why not talk the person down and get them to come out? If the only person in danger was the person they killed, why not simply wait? Stand-off's happen all the time.

 

[Phat Michael]

God damn American cops are fucking terrifying.

 

[Valhelm]

On Facebook, Jonas Carballosa, the second deputy involved in the Justin Way shooting, once posted the following quote: “Most people respect the badge. Everyone respects the gun.”

That sums up America's problems with the police pretty damn well.

 

[Funky Papa]

That sums up America's problems with the police pretty damn well.

It's some straight up Zardoz BS.

THE GUN IS GUD

THE PENIS IS EVIL

 

[John Kowalski]

That sums up America's problems with the police pretty damn well.

Golly good god.

 

[Simon Belmont]

It's some straight up Zardoz BS.

THE GUN IS GUD

THE PENIS IS EVIL

I bet if all cops dressed like Connery in that movie, we'd have a lot less problems.

 

[mjc]

Good god...that quote. Scary stuff.

 

[Tugatrix]

On Facebook, Jonas Carballosa, the second deputy involved in the Justin Way shooting, once posted the following quote: “Most people respect the badge. Everyone respects the gun.”

People looking for respect from the gun or badge shouldn't be a police officer

 

[Nephtis]

Yeah, as someone else said, the problem lies more with the policy than the cops themselves in these situations.

They are trained so that at the very first hint of even imagining a threat to themselves, they will empty their clips on a person.

Whatever happened to negotiators? It used to be that if someone wanted to jump off a building, they'd bring a specialist to talk them down and convince them not to do anything crazy. Now they don't bother with that. "I was fearing for my safety" is the end-all, be-all excuse. And this is just the start.

We're nowhere near there yet, but it's going to get to the point that people will distrust the police so much they will simply take justice into their own hands, and that may lead to some truly horrific acts. We need police to make us feel safe, to actually uphold the law and justice.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Hooooooly shit.

Law enforcement attracts these sort of people to its work unfortunatwly. Disgusting.

 

[travisbickle]

"Way’s parents said they do not ever want to call the police again—for anything."

I don't blame them.

It's sad how many people are starting to follow suit, and how little it matters.

The only reason to call the cops is if you want someone shot dead, may as well change their name to "cleaners" they seem to have no regard for lives.

 

[Nappuccino]

I bet if all cops dressed like Connery in that movie, we'd have a lot less problems.

Isn't that why the Swiss Guard dress like they do?

 

[Valhelm]

Yeah, as someone else said, the problem lies more with the policy than the cops themselves in these situations.

They are trained so that at the very first hint of even imagining a threat to themselves, they will empty their clips on a person.

Whatever happened to negotiators? It used to be that if someone wanted to jump off a building, they'd bring a specialist to talk them down and convince them not to do anything crazy. Now they don't bother with that. "I was fearing for my safety" is the end-all, be-all excuse. And this is just the start.

We're nowhere near there yet, but it's going to get to the point that people will distrust the police so much they will simply take justice into their own hands, and that may lead to some truly horrific acts. We need police to make us feel safe, to actually uphold the law and justice.

I generally agree (this post on reddit, of all places, illustrated that nicely), but at least one of the officers in this situation was clearly unfit for the job.

 

[Siegcram]

That sums up America's problems with the police pretty damn well.

Yep, that one sprung out to me as well.

Amazing that a certified dipshit like this deputy could formulate it this poignantly.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

"“They were in a very tight space within a residence,” he said."

Pistols are easier to use in a tight space and yet they say "it doesn't matter"

I guess they had to find an excuse to use their government given weapons or they would take them back.

 

[bigkrev]

Yeah, as someone else said, the problem lies more with the policy than the cops themselves in these situations.

They are trained so that at the very first hint of even imagining a threat to themselves, they will empty their clips on a person.

Whatever happened to negotiators? It used to be that if someone wanted to jump off a building, they'd bring a specialist to talk them down and convince them not to do anything crazy. Now they don't bother with that. "I was fearing for my safety" is the end-all, be-all excuse. And this is just the start.

We're nowhere near there yet, but it's going to get to the point that people will distrust the police so much they will simply take justice into their own hands, and that may lead to some truly horrific acts. We need police to make us feel safe, to actually uphold the law and justice.

There is a difference between someone jumping off a building, and someone wielding a deadly weapon.

That article is missing what the actual call to the police said. Did the call say he was threatening his girlfriend? There must have been some mention of the knife because, while the assault rifles are already overkill, I can at least understand the justification someone could have in bringing rifles.

"“They were in a very tight space within a residence,” he said."

Pistols are easier to use in a tight space and yet they say "it doesn't matter"

I guess they had to find an excuse to use their government given weapons or they would take them back.

If you are firing your weapon, you are intending to kill your target. A rifle in an enclosed space would increase the likelyhood of killing the person over a handgun.

 

[Any Questions]

Suicide by cop isn't a new thing. It's a well-known issue and I'm pretty sure standard procedure isn't to bring rifles. What the heck...?

Well known issue..... This makes me sad.

 

[Nephtis]

There is a difference between someone jumping off a building, and someone wielding a deadly weapon.

That article is missing what the actual call to the police said. Did the call say he was threatening his girlfriend? There must have been some mention of the knife because, while the assault rifles are already overkill, I can at least understand the justification someone could have in bringing rifles.

That may be missing, but oftentimes with these types of calls the person informs the dispatcher the person may be mentally ill.

Dad calls for help with his mentally ill son, cop arrives and fatally shoots him 11 times

Mom calls police to help take her son to the hospital because he's off his meds, police shoot him

police shoot and kill homeless mentally ill man James Boyd

That's just after a quick search. When it comes to the mentally ill, police treat them as though the person is john wick and can kill them with a straw. The use of force is overwhelmingly shown to be excessive.

 

[M1ch04c4n0]

And more reason to add to the pile of why I don't think the US is better than my own country, or a great country at all.

 

[Funky Papa]

No need to bring that shit here...

 

[FaintDeftone]

It seems like every day I get another excuse to be terrified of cops.

 

[Futureman]

"Way’s parents brought Justin’s mattress to the curb after his death. George says he believes there was a bullet dug out of the bed"


how is something like this in question? Doesn't it become a police scene with yellow tape when someone is killed? Why did the parents just drag the bed to the curb and they aren't totally sure if there was a bullet?

 

[JaggedSac]

Tase him, mace him, beanbag him, etc, so many options. Why the hell do they choose death every damn time. We have a bunch of judge dredds on the street.

 

[HeySeuss]

Well known issue..... This makes me sad.

What makes you sad? That a suicidal individual that can't bring themselves to do what they have made up their mind to do bait law enforcement into a situation that they know will force the officers to use deadly force?

Or that it's a well known issue? This is not a new phenomenon and has been a thing for a long time.

I'd be interested in hearing the 911 call because I'd be willing to bet it was dispatched as a suicidal/threatening family members with a knife. That would prompt a response with officers with the rifles, because it could easily turn into a hostage situation.

 

[cameron]

1. You never know what an unknown party has inside a house in a country where semi-automatic rifles can be openly carried on the street. Bringing in rifles, in this sense, is likely justified.

2. He had a fucking knife in an enclosed space within 18 feet. That's more than enough for procedure to dictate the use of deadly force. If they're close enough to shoot down at him in bed, he's close enough to lunge at someone and attack with his knife in his room.

3. That detective is fucking terrible when talking to the public. When that's mostly what you do (outside of paperwork), maybe think about working in a different field? Maybe not be the point man?

4. The author seems to be a blogger, not a journalist. The writing reflect as such.

This is coming from a Canadian that believes the right to bear arms is fucking insane, btw.

If the armed suicidal person is alone in an enclosed space, it doesn't make any sense for the police to go in if they're not prepared to defuse the situation without the use of deadly force.

 

[trips]

Sounds typical of the police's interactions with the mentally ill.

 

[hipbabboom]

Part of the problem here is we have a legal system that encourages people to defend terrible actions. Police will keep doing terrible things and defend the right to do it and never seek to improve the situation because doing so would be an admission of guilt. Sickening.

 

[Siegcram]

I'd be interested in hearing the 911 call because I'd be willing to bet it was dispatched as a suicidal/threatening family members with a knife. That would prompt a response with officers with the rifles, because it could easily turn into a hostage situation.

The mother said she wasn't threatened and the victim was probably lying in bed alone in his room.

Hard to concoct a potential hostage situation from that.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

1. You never know what an unknown party has inside a house in a country where semi-automatic rifles can be openly carried on the street. Bringing in rifles, in this sense, is likely justified.

"Sir, got a 911 call that a man is threatening to kill himself with a knife"
"He might have an assault rifle, better bring out the big guns.."

2. He had a fucking knife in an enclosed space within 18 feet. That's more than enough for procedure to dictate the use of deadly force. If they're close enough to shoot down at him in bed, he's close enough to lunge at someone and attack with his knife in his room.

Then they should not have gone in the room. Why would they put themselves in a dangerous situation like that where they had no options? Who is he going to hurt inside his own room with a knife?

This is yet another example of police escalating a situation to an unfavourable outcome. I would never expect police to risk getting stabbed because they didn't want to use deadly force, but they need more problem-solving tools than just yelling and shooting.

 

[Anton Sugar]

If the armed suicidal person is alone in an enclosed space, it doesn't make any sense for the police to go in if they're not prepared to defuse the situation without the use of deadly force.

This. Sending officers with assault rifles as the sole response to a possible suicide is a bad idea from the start.

There's this great article from Ta-Nehisi Coates on how we try to solve too many problems with force where force is probably the worst way to handle it: The Myth of Police Reform

There is a tendency, when examining police shootings, to focus on tactics at the expense of strategy. One interrogates the actions of the officer in the moment trying to discern their mind-state. We ask ourselves, "Were they justified in shooting?" But, in this time of heightened concern around the policing, a more essential question might be, "Were we justified in sending them?" At some point, Americans decided that the best answer to every social ill lay in the power of the criminal-justice system. Vexing social problems—homelessness, drug use, the inability to support one's children, mental illness—are presently solved by sending in men and women who specialize in inspiring fear and ensuring compliance. Fear and compliance have their place, but it can't be every place.

Police officers fight crime. Police officers are neither case-workers, nor teachers, nor mental-health professionals, nor drug counselors. One of the great hallmarks of the past forty years of American domestic policy is a broad disinterest in that difference. The problem of restoring police authority is not really a problem of police authority, but a problem of democratic authority. It is what happens when you decide to solve all your problems with a hammer. To ask, at this late date, why the police seem to have lost their minds is to ask why our hammers are so bad at installing air-conditioners. More it is to ignore the state of the house all around us. A reform that begins with the officer on the beat is not reform at all. It's avoidance. It's a continuance of the American preference for considering the actions of bad individuals, as opposed to the function and intention of systems.

 

[gogosox82]

Denise Way, Justin’s mom, said that the detective relayed to her that “they told Justin to drop the knife and he didn’t—so they shot him because that’s what we do.”

What is it exactly that you do? You didn't protect this guy from anything. You just shot him when you thought more about protecting your own life than stopping this guy from being a danger to himself which is what you were called for.

Denise said Smith then told her about “this new trend in law-enforcement now—it’s called suicide by cop.” She said Smith explained “suicide by cop” is when suicidal people provoke the police in an effort to end their own lives.

What? This isn't a new trend. Does this guy have any idea what he's talking about?

“If the deputies feel that that is the appropriate weapon system to use, then yes,” said Mulligan.

If the deputies used tasers and one prong missed, Mulligan said, they might be left in a difficult and potentially dangerous situation.

“They were in a very tight space within a residence,” he said.


Mulligan added that the difference between an assault rifle and a handgun would not have affected the outcome in Justin Way’s case.

“Whether it’s a rifle or not, in many senses, is a non-issue,” he said. “A bullet comes out of a handgun, a bullet comes out of a rifle.”

The fact the he would make these two statements is truly stunning. Surely you would have more room with a pistol or a taser than with a shotgun making it easier to deal with this guy so it is an issue. Seriously, why are you using shotguns to deal with a person who is mentally ill? Makes no damn sense.

On Facebook, Jonas Carballosa, the second deputy involved in the Justin Way shooting, once posted the following quote: “Most people respect the badge. Everyone respects the gun.”

What a disgusting quote. This guy shouldn't be a police officer. Its not about serving the community for him. Its about making sure people respect (fear) him. Disgusting.

 

[Cow Mengde]

I generally agree (this post on reddit, of all places, illustrated that nicely), but at least one of the officers in this situation was clearly unfit for the job.

All I see are cases of dehumanizing jump starting a car, and dehumanizing fishing.

 

[Nightbird]

Why would you want to become a Police officer if you are just going to protect your own life?

 

[commedieu]

Why would you want to become a Police officer if you are just going to protect your own life?

To abuse others seems to be the take home from all of these threads. Its common sense to not be like this, they choose not to.

 

[inky]

"that's what we do"

You're damn right it is.

 

[Mael]

Why would you want to become a Police officer if you are just going to protect your own life?

Well to be fair it's probably the only position that can protect you from the Police :/

e: oh, the victim wasn't black, don't know why I expected otherwise...

 

[KevinCow]

Similar thing happened to me once, years ago. Like... must've been at least 10 years ago now. I was threatening to kill myself with a knife so my parents called the police. Cops showed up, saw me with a knife, and drew their guns. I laughed and pointed out the absurdity of the situation, and... the cops actually put their guns away. They talked me into dropping the knife and then took me to a mental hospital.

I guess I'm lucky I didn't get trigger-happy cops like these guys.

 

[Jarmel]

On Facebook, Jonas Carballosa, the second deputy involved in the Justin Way shooting, once posted the following quote: “Most people respect the badge. Everyone respects the gun.”

America.

Justin’s parents do not believe their son was a threat, because they think Justin was shot while still lying in bed.

This is depressing.

 

[SmokyDave]

The Daily Beast asked if it was standard procedure to bring assault rifles, but not mental-health professionals, to a scene where someone is suicidal.

“If the deputies feel that that is the appropriate weapon system to use, then yes,” said Mulligan.

Not sure you quite got the point there, chief.

 

[DJMicLuv]

Similar thing happened to me once, years ago. Like... must've been at least 10 years ago now. I was threatening to kill myself with a knife so my parents called the police. Cops showed up, saw me with a knife, and drew their guns. I laughed and pointed out the absurdity of the situation, and... the cops actually put their guns away. They talked me into dropping the knife and then took me to a mental hospital.

I guess I'm lucky I didn't get trigger-happy cops like these guys.

So the cops pulled out guns which was obviously a mad thing to do, you talked sense to them and then they took you to a mental hospital? I have no words for the fucked up irony in this situation.