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Moana |OT| - "If you wear a dress and have an animal sidekick, you're a princess"

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O

Osahi

Member
Saw it yesterday evening. I was going to post my thoughts in the 'new renaissance > 2nd one" topic, but as this one is still on page one I'll do it here. (going to be a long post, so hold on to your buts)

I enjoyed Moana (or Vaiana I should say), but to me it's a clear example of why Disney's new renaissance, despite of some good to great films, doesn't top the previous one yet. This is maybe the most classic of the new films in terms of structure and tone (thanks to the music for the most part), but that actually makes the flaws more clear if you compare it to something like The Lion King. I would first like to say I loved the animation, I loved the ear-wurm music (I'm still tapping my feet regularly on the tunes in my head) and I love what they tried to do with a 'modern' princess-theme, without a love interest.

The problem is: it lacked heart. In the sense you (or I should say 'I', though my wife had the same feeling) aren't really invested in the story or the main character. Her dramatic need is pretty superficial actually, and she doesn't really has compelling flaws she needs to conquer. Her quest is one to
restore the heart and save the world
, but it is barely connected to a personal growth. The result is that the conflict is almost completely exteriour, which makes you actually care less about the characters. This also makes the 'interiour' moments feel off. Going into the third act I could actualy feel the screenwriters grabbing a standard beat sheet and filling in the blanks, without it coming from the character itself.

I am talking about the
ghost grandmother scene. It's a typical 'Dark Night of the Soul' moment from the Save the Cat screenwriting book that has been in vogue for some years now in Hollywood. But it doesn't work because it doesn't come from Moana herself. The 'doubt'-moment (and actually a lot of character development and arc) is actually with Maui. It is he who learns a lesson during the film. The doubt of Moana there is superficial as she has ONE little setback, and suddenly thinks she isn't worth it. This is after a whole movie where we see her being a badass and not taking no for an answer. It doesn't feel at all like the doubt is coming from within the character, it feels like it comes from the screenwriters.

Compare this scene to a similar and famous one in The Lion King. There the ghost of Mustafa is a very powerfull and gripping moment, which gets your heart racing and actually makes you feel something. Why? Because it is the culmination of an internal conflict that Simba has been struggling with for almost the whole movie: guilt, the believe he isn't worth it to fullfill his destiny (a destiny that in act I was set up as the ONE thing he wanted. And what's holding him from getting it is HIMSELF)

Actually, it makes Moana a very bland character. The big dramatic need that is set up in act I
being a seafarer, being on the ocean, is actually resolved going into act II when she just does it.
No conflict comes from within herself. No conflict actually comes from stupid things she does. (Compare it to Ariel and the Little Mermaid, who gets herself into trouble, and then even deeper. You don't have this feeling with Moana). The big antagonist of her dramatic need is her father
who is completely out of the picture once she sets sail, which makes for a compete lac of conflict (apart from a wild ocean or some coconut pirates, superficial stuff) in that regard

All this is exemplified in most of the set pieces too
Pirates, crab man, ...
, which you can actually cut out of the film withouth damaging the story at all. It's because they aren't connected to the character and don't force her to grow or overcome flaws. It's superfluous action to keep kids attention, as if the makers think you can't keep the attention of kids with character stuff too (though they did it in the 90ies, and Pixar did it during their golden years al the time)

Again, I enjoyed the film for what it was. But a masterpiece this ain't by far. I have seen better animated movies this year (Kubo, and especially Ma Vie de Courgette. I even enjoyed Finding Dory more, though the first half of that one was quite boring), and I don't think it even holds up to stuff like Zootopia or Tangled.
 
K

Kin5290

Member
Saw this today. Utterly loved it. It's on par with Zootopia, with slightly worse pacing and some story hiccups but having excellent musical numbers and no extraneous Shakira.

There are a few things that the movie could have changed for the better.
Maui's "I changed my mind kid" moment was corny and contributed to some flab. I know that they needed to get Moana alone for "Who You Are" but that part of the movie seemed a little awkward.

Also, Giving Maui a brand new fishhook after he made the decision to sacrifice his own was a bad move. I think that instead of doing that, Te Fiti could have given him a clue to find or make another fishhook, instead of just handing him a brand new one.

Still, this was a great movie. So damn pretty.
 
L

Linkyn

Member
Gnome said:
I want to see Moana but I hate going to the theater when I know it will be full of kids.
Click to expand...

I had the supreme luck of seeing the English version of the movie in a country in which English is a foreign language not taught before the age of 13 / 14. We had exactly one parent / child combo during our screening, and I'm pretty sure the child didn't understand much trying to keep up with the German / French subtitles (maybe the mother explained what was going on, but that still seems sub-optimal).
 
B

Blackhead

Redarse
mmm.... Moana should have had more fleshed out speaking characters. A best 'friend' (the ocean) that doesn't speak, the main villain that doesn't speak either, the dumbest animal sidekick ever who also doesn't speak, no love interest... It also meant not enough of the songs were sung by characters we were invested in e.g. I really like 'We Know the Way' in abstract but in the context of the film, where it's sung by generic ancestors, it didn't move me. They should have had the Grandmother sing it instead. Too much of the film hung on Moana and Maui.

My second criticism (which might seem odd following the first one) is that there's too much talking in this film; the soundtrack is too noisy. The ocean, especially for a solitary traveler, is mostly silent. Oddly enough we saw all those seashells motif in the film but I don't recall Moana ever picking up one and just listening to it and allowing us the audience to hear the sound of the ocean. The's not much sense of the solitude of the sea. I really like the boisterous character of Moana in the abstract but in the context of the film I almost wish she was mute. The soundtrack was too distracting. If Pixar could do it for Wall.E, why not Disney?

Moana flipped the princess script it a lot of ways but I guess I wish it was more ambitious. It's framed in the classic 'watch what Moana and the animated characters are doing' while I'd rather experience the story through Moana's eyes in a first person perspective. It's like watching multicam TV in this golden age of single cam TV shows. The first question that came to my mind after this movie: how long before Disney does the live-action version...? I really hope they fast track that asap so Dwayne Johnson can play himself

Addendum: That short before the movie, what the hell lol. Again, I like it in the abstract, but I just showed up to watch Disney's most progressive princess yet but I'm forced to sit through 'White People Man, First World, Middle Class' Problems. I can't even...

Despite all the complaints, I still like Moana a lot. But I wish Studio Ghibli or Pixar tackled this tale instead

Osahi said:
Saw it yesterday evening. I was going to post my thoughts in the 'new renaissance > 2nd one" topic, but as this one is still on page one I'll do it here. (going to be a long post, so hold on to your buts)

I enjoyed Moana (or Vaiana I should say), but to me it's a clear example of why Disney's new renaissance, despite of some good to great films, doesn't top the previous one yet. This is maybe the most classic of the new films in terms of structure and tone (thanks to the music for the most part), but that actually makes the flaws more clear if you compare it to something like The Lion King. I would first like to say I loved the animation, I loved the ear-wurm music (I'm still tapping my feet regularly on the tunes in my head) and I love what they tried to do with a 'modern' princess-theme, without a love interest.

The problem is: it lacked heart. In the sense you (or I should say 'I', though my wife had the same feeling) aren't really invested in the story or the main character. Her dramatic need is pretty superficial actually, and she doesn't really has compelling flaws she needs to conquer. Her quest is one to
restore the heart and save the world
, but it is barely connected to a personal growth. The result is that the conflict is almost completely exteriour, which makes you actually care less about the characters. This also makes the 'interiour' moments feel off. Going into the third act I could actualy feel the screenwriters grabbing a standard beat sheet and filling in the blanks, without it coming from the character itself.

I am talking about the
ghost grandmother scene. It's a typical 'Dark Night of the Soul' moment from the Save the Cat screenwriting book that has been in vogue for some years now in Hollywood. But it doesn't work because it doesn't come from Moana herself. The 'doubt'-moment (and actually a lot of character development and arc) is actually with Maui. It is he who learns a lesson during the film. The doubt of Moana there is superficial as she has ONE little setback, and suddenly thinks she isn't worth it. This is after a whole movie where we see her being a badass and not taking no for an answer. It doesn't feel at all like the doubt is coming from within the character, it feels like it comes from the screenwriters.

Compare this scene to a similar and famous one in The Lion King. There the ghost of Mustafa is a very powerfull and gripping moment, which gets your heart racing and actually makes you feel something. Why? Because it is the culmination of an internal conflict that Simba has been struggling with for almost the whole movie: guilt, the believe he isn't worth it to fullfill his destiny (a destiny that in act I was set up as the ONE thing he wanted. And what's holding him from getting it is HIMSELF)

Actually, it makes Moana a very bland character. The big dramatic need that is set up in act I
being a seafarer, being on the ocean, is actually resolved going into act II when she just does it.
No conflict comes from within herself. No conflict actually comes from stupid things she does. (Compare it to Ariel and the Little Mermaid, who gets herself into trouble, and then even deeper. You don't have this feeling with Moana). The big antagonist of her dramatic need is her father
who is completely out of the picture once she sets sail, which makes for a compete lac of conflict (apart from a wild ocean or some coconut pirates, superficial stuff) in that regard

All this is exemplified in most of the set pieces too
Pirates, crab man, ...
, which you can actually cut out of the film withouth damaging the story at all. It's because they aren't connected to the character and don't force her to grow or overcome flaws. It's superfluous action to keep kids attention, as if the makers think you can't keep the attention of kids with character stuff too (though they did it in the 90ies, and Pixar did it during their golden years al the time)

Again, I enjoyed the film for what it was. But a masterpiece this ain't by far. I have seen better animated movies this year (Kubo, and especially Ma Vie de Courgette. I even enjoyed Finding Dory more, though the first half of that one was quite boring), and I don't think it even holds up to stuff like Zootopia or Tangled.
Click to expand...
Your critique isn't bad but I think you missed the crux of the film, specifically here:
Osahi said:
I am talking about the
ghost grandmother scene. It's a typical 'Dark Night of the Soul' moment from the Save the Cat screenwriting book that has been in vogue for some years now in Hollywood. But it doesn't work because it doesn't come from Moana herself. The 'doubt'-moment (and actually a lot of character development and arc) is actually with Maui. It is he who learns a lesson during the film. The doubt of Moana there is superficial as she has ONE little setback, and suddenly thinks she isn't worth it. This is after a whole movie where we see her being a badass and not taking no for an an answer. It doesn't feel at all like the doubt is coming from within the character, it feels like it comes from the screenwriters.
Click to expand...

No,
the doubt-moment was primarily with Moana. Through-out the film she had that question about who she was and her mantra was she was Moana putting Maui on her boat taking him across the sea for him to save the world. The doubt of course was that Maui failed and abandoned her so perhaps she was not the right person to encourage Maui. Instead the ocean brings her Grandmother to remind her about finding out who she really is, leading Moana to overcome her self doubt AND change her mantra to her not him will save the world. That's who she really is. And it's a nice coda for how she saves the world by recognizing and reminding Te Fiti who the goddess really was.

I think you're right that the setpieces earlier in the story didn't really show growth. The screenwriters should have shown more clear parallels between what she learned against the pirates & the crab versus how Moana dodged Te Ka at the end. There's a thread of a solid story here but the execution wasn't so good. I think Kubo was worse in that regard though
 
T

Tricky I Shadow

Banned
menacin said:
Really hated this movie. Everyone in the theater was practically falling asleep . Boring terrible movie.

Oh well

I am very suspicious of all of you . You are all fake ad bots that tricked me into seeing this movie .
Click to expand...

OBLa1vU.jpg


Maui clearly stole your heart.
 
E

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
menacin said:
Really hated this movie. Everyone in the theater was practically falling asleep . Boring terrible movie.

Oh well

I am very suspicious of all of you . You are all fake ad bots that tricked me into seeing this movie .
Click to expand...

I'm very suspicious of how you knew everyone in the theater was falling asleep.
 
B

Blackhead

Redarse
Osahi said:
The problem is: it lacked heart. In the sense you (or I should say 'I', though my wife had the same feeling) aren't really invested in the story or the main character. Her dramatic need is pretty superficial actually, and she doesn't really has compelling flaws she needs to conquer. Her quest is one to
restore the heart and save the world
, but it is barely connected to a personal growth. The result is that the conflict is almost completely exteriour, which makes you actually care less about the characters. This also makes the 'interiour' moments feel off. Going into the third act I could actualy feel the screenwriters grabbing a standard beat sheet and filling in the blanks, without it coming from the character itself...

Actually, it makes Moana a very bland character. The big dramatic need that is set up in act I
being a seafarer, being on the ocean, is actually resolved going into act II when she just does it.
No conflict comes from within herself. No conflict actually comes from stupid things she does. (Compare it to Ariel and the Little Mermaid, who gets herself into trouble, and then even deeper. You don't have this feeling with Moana). The big antagonist of her dramatic need is her father
who is completely out of the picture once she sets sail, which makes for a compete lac of conflict (apart from a wild ocean or some coconut pirates, superficial stuff) in that regard

All this is exemplified in most of the set pieces too
Pirates, crab man, ...
, which you can actually cut out of the film withouth damaging the story at all. It's because they aren't connected to the character and don't force her to grow or overcome flaws. It's superfluous action to keep kids attention, as if the makers think you can't keep the attention of kids with character stuff too (though they did it in the 90ies, and Pixar did it during their golden years al the time)

Again, I enjoyed the film for what it was. But a masterpiece this ain't by far. I have seen better animated movies this year (Kubo, and especially Ma Vie de Courgette. I even enjoyed Finding Dory more, though the first half of that one was quite boring), and I don't think it even holds up to stuff like Zootopia or Tangled.
Click to expand...

I'm no screenwriter by my ideal version of the story would be:
First change the conflict with the father. Instead him instigating Moana's debate about being an island princess or going to get Maui to save the world the film should focus on the latter debate of going to get Maui versus saving the world herself. So in this version it is actually tradition that every generation/100 years etc someone from the island attempts the quest. After the first few failures it's always becomes a halfhearted attempt and the person brings back a slab of rock. Maybe the father is grooming some other man from the village because he doesn't have a son or he just doesn't think Moana is capable/is ready yet. That's the conflict. The Grandmother instead encourages Moana and when the Grandmother falls ill that's the impetus to take the heart herself even though she's not ready/chosen by her father...

One other aspect I would change is Tamatoa's song. Most of the characters (including the main villain) are mute and I think Shiny doesn't contribute to the theme of the film. I would either cut out the music there altogether or put in another Maui song (perhaps a reprise of You're Welcome but with the lyrics of Maui's failures. Save Tamatoa for the extra credits
 
O

Osahi

Member
Blackhead said:
No,
the doubt-moment was primarily with Moana. Through-out the film she had that question about who she was and her mantra was she was Moana putting Maui on her boat taking him across the sea for him to save the world. The doubt of course was that Maui failed and abandoned her so perhaps she was not the right person to encourage Maui. Instead the ocean brings her Grandmother to remind her about finding out who she really is, leading Moana to overcome her self doubt AND change her mantra to her not him will save the world. That's who she really is. And it's a nice coda for how she saves the world by recognizing and reminding Te Fiti who the goddess really was.

I think you're right that the setpieces earlier in the story didn't really show growth. The screenwriters should have shown more clear parallels between what she learned against the pirates & the crab versus how Moana dodged Te Ka at the end. There's a thread of a solid story here but the execution wasn't so good. I think Kubo was worse in that regard though
Click to expand...
You have a point. I didn't see that scene in this light, and should rewatch it. It could be me who just missed something. Thinking about it, your interpretation is actually spot-on, so I still wonder why it didn't work.

Maybe because it felt like the 'who am I' was never the main dramatic need that drove the plot. Maybe because there was not enough conflict surrounding this need and holding her back. (As she is actually during the film furfilling what she thinks is her need, and succeeding quite constantly. ) This doubt-moment felt disconnected to me to her little arc that seemed to be set up during the rest of the film
 
O

Oersted

Member
Garlador said:
Not having a love interest for a DIsney film is huge, largely because Moana is the FIRST DISNEY PRINCESS (excluding Elsa, who is technically a queen) in their entire 78 year animation history to not have a love interest or have their character pressured into romance (I kinda, sorta don't count Merida, as she's a Pixar girl, not a Disney Animation creation, but even her story is about her rejecting suitors).

While that may not be big outside of Disney, by eschewing a love interest, the film liberates its heroine to dedicate her whole being and all her efforts towards saving her people and being awesome with no distractions of romance. When every "princess" story ends with the "happily ever after" of riding off into the sunset with her prince charming, Moana instead takes the reins herself and sets sail with her own volition. She's not incomplete without a man in her life; she's a self-realized, ambitious, heroic leader of her entire people and forging her own path through the world.

Her not having a love interest is both not a big deal and also a huge deal. It's all in their execution, and I think it IS the film's strength to resist the easy, predictable, and financially viable formula of "girls need true love to be happy" and instead to give girls everywhere a stronger message of "be who you are and impact others across the globe".
Click to expand...

There is a whole fucking world outside Disney.

And having a love interest and being strong can be complimentary.
 
L

Lan Dong Mik

And why would I want them?
Thought this movie was just okay. The animation was absolutely incredible, possibly the best I've ever seen, but I really thought the story and the characters were lacking big time. I was also pretty disappointed by the music in this. I had huge expectations but the only song I really liked was You're Welcome. Maybe I'll change my mind on repeated viewings but I was kind of disappointed. My kids absolutely loved it.
 
T

TheFNEffecT

Member
I was in a super bad mood yesterday and didn't even want to watch this movie, my family had planned it since Friday. My fiance and family told me to just forget about things and watch so I just said fuck it and went.

Glad I did, the songs themselves hit me pretty hard. Great movie.
 
B

Brinbe

Member
Absolutely fantastic. Moana instantly became one my favorite Disney heroines. They killeD it. The short feature was also excellent as always.

Really got me thinking about positive male role models and if there's been a lack of them in recent times.
Because between this, Frozen, Brave there's been a great string of empowering and inspiring models for females (and everyone) to follow. All without the old cliched romanticc trappings of the past.
 
F

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Not much to say other than it's a fun movie, although Miranda's songs are... well, you know he wrote them. lol

In many ways I think it's a more together film than Frozen, but for whatever reason it doesn't have the same emotional highs.
 
Laughing Banana

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
It's a good movie, but it didn't stick with me afterwards like Frozen did.

I basically hummed and downloaded various songs from Frozen after watching it for my pleasure, lol, but I just didn't feel... anything from this movie.
 
C

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
Saw it last night, was a cute movie. I felt the story was a little generic, and I didn't have the attachment to the characters as I had in other similar movies. Animation and music were top notch, of course.

Anyone saying this is on the level of The Little Mermaid or Lion King etc is just drunk or something.
 
E

Eyemus Lutt

Member
Just finished watching it and it's way over hyped. It's nowhere on the level of Zootopia let alone Disney classics. It had way too many obvious flaws and not enough fantastic moments to make it stand out.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
Kin5290 said:
Her story basically revolves around romance (and her wish to not be encumbered by one) however.
Click to expand...

More truly, her story is about her struggle with her mother in dealing with becoming a 'proper' lady. Sure, the arranged marriage was part of it, maybe even the peak of that conflict, but it's really about her mother not letting her be her.
 
Tizoc

Tizoc

Member
Just got back from watching it.
Loved the movie although IMHO, Zootopia is the better movie from Disney this year.

While I was glad to see songs in the movie, they just don't live up to their predecessor's quality.
the villain song was just plain dull. Call me old fashioned but these Disney songs need more frequent RHYMING.
Although IMO 'we know the way' is the best song in the movie.

Maui and Moana were great characters and I loved Hei Hei.

Also, never in my life did I expect to see [spoiloer]3 urine jokes in a Disney theatre viewing[/spoiler]
 
T

Tricky I Shadow

Banned
I finally saw this again with another advanced screening, this time in my own town. Not only was the cinema completely full, but more than half the audience were Maoris. I love that! The movie got an applause at the end too, which is super rare here in Australia.
 
M

Mistle

Member
Tricky I Shadow said:
I finally saw this again with another advanced screening, this time in my own town. Not only was the cinema completely full, but more than half the audience were Maoris. I love that! The movie got an applause at the end too, which is super rare here in Australia.
Click to expand...

i really wanted to make it to an advance screening in melbourne today but couldn't :( doesn't seem like there are any more until official release (boxing day i think?). lame
 
P

ProfessorLobo

Banned
Kin5290 said:
Saw this today. Utterly loved it. It's on par with Zootopia, with slightly worse pacing and some story hiccups but having excellent musical numbers and no extraneous Shakira.

There are a few things that the movie could have changed for the better.
Maui's "I changed my mind kid" moment was corny and contributed to some flab. I know that they needed to get Moana alone for "Who You Are" but that part of the movie seemed a little awkward.

Also, Giving Maui a brand new fishhook after he made the decision to sacrifice his own was a bad move. I think that instead of doing that, Te Fiti could have given him a clue to find or make another fishhook, instead of just handing him a brand new one.

Still, this was a great movie. So damn pretty.
Click to expand...

Agreed, and those are pretty big mistakes for me. Anyone that thinks new movies are better than lion king are out of their mind.
 
Z

ZZMitch

Member
Just got back from seeing this. Awesome movie and soundtrack.

Preferred it to Zootopia (which was a good movie itself), something about Moana clicked with me more I guess.
 
Soapbox Killer

Soapbox Killer

Grand Nagus
Took 3 of my kids see it. They liked it well enough and I thought it was well done. The Fury Road reference was dope did I also catch
Godzilla?
or am I making that up.

Tangled is still the top of Disney Animation Studio Films but this was at least 3rd maybe even 2nd.
 
R

Richie

Member
Animation wise I give the movie a 15 out of 10. Story wise it's half that, a 7.5. Absolutely masterful animation with a script that doesn't measure up, but it's enjoyable despite several flaws.

Also damn I really need to watch Zootopia already.
 
K

killertofu

Member
This was way better than Frozen. Still haven't seen Zootopia but I felt Frozen was lacking so much visually and way overhyped for what it was. Plus that snowman was annoying.
 
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