Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Nod.
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New Clinton postmortem of campaign includes criticism of Sanders policy promises
- Thread starter Inuhanyou
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Nod.
Are goalposts heavy?
This wasn't a refusal to support a federally backed public option. This was an acknowledgement of the Congress she'd have to work with.
I mean, Crab, you have to ignore one of the most consistent things Hillary has stood for her entire political career to say she didn't support a public option.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Again, we're not talking about 2008. We're talking about 2016, the primary in which Clinton did not back the public option. Was the public option a free pony?
My parents were the ones who taught me not to judge people by the color of their skin, their family history, or their faith. They voted for Trump because the DNC has done everything they could during the Obama administration to take their support for granted. Do they regret their vote now? Sure. But they still wouldn't want to vote for Hillary. She ran a shitty campaign with a muddled message. Put aside all that 'people judged her too harshly because she's a woman' stuff because my parents didn't give a shit about that.
The media fed Trump until he was practically a demi-god, and the Russian meddling was a serious issue, but even with that aside, Clinton had no clear message. She let the media craft a narrative of being Obama v1.2 and she was entitled to the job, which is something many people can't stand. Trump is a liar and an asshole, but he ran with clarity and energy. I'm not saying the DNC should totally surrender to Sanders/Trump style, but they need to show more unity if they're going to actually seem worth voting for.
What does since mean, crab?
lukeskymac
Member
Ten months later and HillaryGAF is still in denial, holy shit. Your candidate sucked, her campaign was ineffective and at times cringe-worthy. If you can't hold that L how the hell do you intend to take your country back in 2020?
I'm sorry your parents raised you well but then decided to become white supremacists, that seems like a bummer
Denial about what?
Sirpopopop
Member
My retort: You can't vote, so no one cares what you have to say. Worry about your own country.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
If Clinton only ever said things that would be feasible given the Congress she had to work with, how do you explain her entire issues site, almost none of which would have been feasible (seriously, read it and tell me a GOP Senate would tick off on that)?
If Clinton said at least some things she hoped to do under best-possible-circumstances rather than with absolute confidence, why was the public option not one of them? Why is the most significant commitment she makes 'empowering states', a nothing policy?
Was the public option a free pony?
Please don't just make a generalised statement as a reponse, it would be nice to have answers to each of these three questions individually. Otherwise this conversation becomes pointless.
Ouch.
Yes. You don't go into negotiations looking to give up your position right out of the gate. Compromise is necessary but the Clinton/Obama wing has a history of being far too willing to cede to Republicans on major issues when they should take a strong ideological stand instead. I think most of us understand that Bernie Sanders couldn't snap his fingers and give us single payer HC. But I don't think it was ever in question by anybody that Bernie wouldn't fight like hell to get us as much progressive policy as he could. Even independents and Republicans recognize that. It's why he's the most popular politician in the country IMO.
googleplex
Member
Of course he is going to ignore it. Other wise the facts will get the way of the careful constructed reality he's built for himself.
This is not a good response.
Crab is right about this, guys. Hillary was deliberately cagey and noncommittal about the ACA for the entire campaign. This is absolutely true.
How can I begin to answer this? You keep asserting something that NOBODY in the last two pages agrees with you on!
Pointless conversation indeed.
TheOfficeMut
Unconfirmed Member
Yoooo if threads on this forum have taught me anything it's that people with the utmost best intentions are surely dissuaded from ever running for any type of political office because people are vile assholes and will vote out of spite because you're not the tooth fairy.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
How did that work out for Bernie again?
Cameron122
Member
This is the longest election cycle ever
shawnbuddy
Member
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I mean, Donald Trump is also the President and Clinton is writing salty books about why she lost.
lukeskymac
Member
...about Hillary being the biggest problem of Hillary's campaign?
"Let's just keep digging" isn't a good strategy, FYI.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
I can assure you, neither wants to be in their current position.
Can you break it down, like in a pie chart?
Easy to lose when the DNC is serving that nomination up years before the season even started.
It's like playing basketball and one team starts the game with 40 points.
Example?
He's one of the most influential Democratic figures in the party despite not even being a Dem, and he's the most popular politician in the country. While I'm sure he'd prefer to be president, it's a preferable outcome to being a widely-reviled pariah.
at this point i think this is too charitable.
the democratic party has spent decades staking out its policy positions and i think we need to take them at their word. by and large they do not want single payer health care, they do not want to increase the minimum wage to a livable level, they do not want to provide free college, they do not want to end america's foreign wars, and they do not want to rein in wall street. if the republicans went away tomorrow and the current batch of democratic politicians could do whatever they wanted we would still end up in a shitty situation because the party is inherently center-right on economic issues and far right on foreign policy.
She lost because she's an unlikable, unrelatable, entitled, robot.
googleplex
Member
I'm so so sick of this fucking lie.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Well, I mean I don't disagree - that was my earlier point. I don't think the market for "why I lost" is as big as HRC thinks it is because even HRC voters at this point can recognize her failures as a candidate.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
If this is as straightforward as you say, and Clinton clearly and openly backed a federally supported public option, it should be very easy for you to find - I mean, she clearly and openly backed it, right?
I will accept any piece of Clinton campaign material - in one of her speeches, on her website, in a campaign pamphlet, etc, anything that would have been seen by multiple people and wasn't an insider comment/anonymous source - from between her announcing her candidacy in 2015 and July 9th 2016, that clearly demonstrates she supported the federally backed public option.
If I'm so wrong, this should be quite easy to find, so I expect our conversation to resume quite shortly.
And Bernie couldn't even beat an unlikable, unrelatable, entitled, robot.
This is a very good point. Most of the things written in as her policies on her website are no-goes without a Democratic majority. So it is a good point to criticize why she deemed it necessary to criticize Bernie's "pie in the sky" policies when she would also need a Democratic majority for hers.
Bernie did have many more policies even more left of her, but to call it out as "not likely" while assuming she may have the best environment for her policies is quite a stretch.
It is very important to note the difference in situations. Bernie going up against a candidate in a Democratic primary that was already highly backed by Democrats is not the same as the general election. If those 2 were to run against one another in a general, I am pretty certain Bernie would of won. You really can't excuse Hillary's loss to someone like Trump.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
You have receipts right? Cause I'm pretty sure it had much more to do with the fact that Bernie abandoned the south and didn't have support with a certain portion of the democrat electorate. But go on.
Cause DNC/media cabal, blah blah blah. What evidence, sorry need to make dinner.
Area poster does not understand basic things about how politics work
googleplex
Member
This is not even counting the fact that Hillary campaign treated Bernie with kid gloves the entire primary.
How did the DNC cause Bernie Sanders to lose? Be specific.
This is you moving the goalpost.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Explain what the original goalpost was and how I moved it.
Yup. And you know that Hillary Clinton really needs to learn to take personal responsibility.
RedAssedApe
Banned
haha...bernie bros
Sirpopopop
Member
If someone is going to be a condescending prick coming from another country with a holier than thou attitude about how other people than the ones who voted for Trump are responsible for Trump, then I will give them a gutter type of response as well.
Ok fine. Then do you also agree with Crab that Hillary Clinton is comparing health insurance to an unattainable pony? That's the basic argument Crab is supporting here. The rest is just minutiae.
If that's the case then why did she make it explicit she supported it in February of 2016. Then why did she support it in 2008? Then why did she support it in 2009 during the ACA debates? Why didn't she take it off after she won the primary?
Considering how a large part of her campaign revolved around her being pragmatic and extremely risk averse, it seems that if it was an unattainable pony she wouldn't have put it up on her page at all.
And Hillary LOST the South. Winning the Democrat vote in the South is like the world's most useless consolation prize. But he did better in all the purple states that actually MATTERED.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Oh I'm fucking sorry, do you want a coronation for King Bernie? He couldn't win the fucking primary bro.
Those states don't matter if he can't win the fucking primary.
What you are wanting to do is disenfranchise the entire south cause we don't matter in the general, well fuck you.
The reasonable criticism of Bernie's proposals is not that they're politically impractical, but that they are practically impractical -- which is to say, in general, they have not been spelled out enough to understand how they would be implemented, and in the cases where they were, they made unreasonable assumptions like very high GDP growth to reach reasonable funding levels.
This is actually a very notable critique -- as people have mentioned, Bernie has a strong record of getting amendments passed in the Senate. This requires a skilled legislative pen. Bernie should be capable of writing bills that could be passed as written. If he's choosing to push forward bills that can't be passed as written, it's appropriate to question whether those goals are practical or reasonable. After all, if he could write bills that just work, presumably he would be doing so.
Also the thing where he called open borders a Koch brothers plot was kind of notable to me, just saying
He is saying the DNC and Democratic politicians was already backing Hillary from the getgo is all. It isn't easy to overcome such a base that is already established, Trump managed to, but Bernie didn't for whatever reasons. Could possibly be due to the constant media Trump was getting lol.
Sorry, but I don't buy that. U.S could easily afford it practically, the only thing standing in the way is politics.
To be clear, the main hitters U.S can afford, but politically choose not to, is single-payer, a $12-$15 minimum wage, legalizing marijuana, getting rid of minimum sentencing, treating drug abuse as a health issues, and dealing with wealth inequality. These were his main issues he talked about and it is clear majority of the U.S public wants it and U.S can afford it.
If you are not competitive in purple states, I really don't give a fuck.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Nice.
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